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On April 25 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine.
overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do).
I'd disagree. Overpool is pretty effective in ZvP as you are trying to halt the nexus as long as possible. Also Overpool is great on maps like Destination where you will be scouted immediately (if the P is intelligent) and he will see your pool going up and be in a position to make cannons first.
If you 12 hatch then I'm going to just 13/14 nexus and cannon after. Or if I'm feeling aggressive I will make the gateway first and then just one cannon to start. 12 hatch is great for boosting Z economy early, but if it's nullified by an expand on the Protoss side, then whats the point?
Just to note:
14 Nexus gets you a completed Nexus by about 18/25
17/18 Nexus gets you a completed Nexus by about 21/25
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On April 25 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine. overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do).
I know that you're a strong Z on iccup, but i don't really understand your strategics play. I mean, what's the point of P doing gates later than 9/10 (extremely uncommon) if he can either FE or 1 gate build in almost every map ?
And P goes FE about 90% of the time, so it's better to build Pool first in order to make him put 2 canons before nexus. Not to mention 10-12 glings can easily take 2 canons which a lot of P are lazy to defend lately. Dunno about C- protoss and above yet, but i guess they're more cautious obv.
Whereas if you did put 12 hatch you'd just be behind because of the P whoring probe and gate without putting any canon at best. So hatch 12 the best opening ? Sorry don't think so 
You're only ahead against 1 gate build or 2 gates but that's only 10% of them on iccup hell even less.
Unless you wanted to answer to stevenick about pooling first being best build against 1 gate tech which is not i agree. H12 is way better for 1 gate build or gate later than 9/10 (Even so i'd put h11 in order to prevent this hard rush more easily)
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12 Hatch is the best possible opening zerg can hope for, it has a stronger economy, and on 3-4 player maps the protoss will almost always place a forge first, unless he gets a tad lucky with his scout, and even if he scouts the zerg in the first position, the zerg will not always have expanded at the front nat (like medusa, andromeda or gods garden), not seeing a hatch at that position will be an automatic trigger for a forge for many protosses.
12 hatch openings also have much easier timings, and earlier as well. To the people saying that overpool is best because you force 2 cannons, well first thats not always the case, especially on 4 player maps with diagonal positions and second youre just guessing that overpool has a better econ vs a 2 cannon -> nexus than 12 hatch has vs a forge -> nexus or even 12/14 nexus. Besides you can also force 2 cannons with a 12 hatch opening, before he places his gateway, which may not have the economical implications of an overpool but it delays his tech because of the later gateway and gas, while your own tech can come out nicely timed at the cost of a couple of drones.
And 9/10 gates, proxy gates and a single 9 (or earlier) gate are better countered by an overpool or 9 pool than with a 12 hatch. The exception being a 10 gate -> gas, where 12 hatch does best.
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On April 25 2009 16:02 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine. overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do). and that's the reason why half of the koreans 9pool in ZvP...
Umm actually the reason half the koreans 9pool or overpool z v p is because most protoss (read 90% even on iccup) are too smart to go 1 base. So it is a versus FE aggressive opening.
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On April 25 2009 22:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine.
overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do). I'd disagree. Overpool is pretty effective in ZvP as you are trying to halt the nexus as long as possible. Also Overpool is great on maps like Destination where you will be scouted immediately (if the P is intelligent) and he will see your pool going up and be in a position to make cannons first. If you 12 hatch then I'm going to just 13/14 nexus and cannon after. Or if I'm feeling aggressive I will make the gateway first and then just one cannon to start. 12 hatch is great for boosting Z economy early, but if it's nullified by an expand on the Protoss side, then whats the point? Just to note: 14 Nexus gets you a completed Nexus by about 18/25 17/18 Nexus gets you a completed Nexus by about 21/25
I'm sorry I forgot to clarify this point.
12 hat is the best possible opening AGAINST any 2gate or 1 gate play, but imo is NOT the most optimal play against FE because of the protoss abiltiy to tech incredibly fast while producing zealots. Put zerg in any early game "guns or butter" situation.
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