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OK, first question. Zerg goes 9overpool and 8 lings asap, what can a protoss get away with while being safe? forge-cannon-cannon or forge-nexus-cannon? I know it's map/scouting dependant, but assume zerg goes straight for toss base.
Second question, for the following scenarios:
- 12 hatch vs. nexus-forge-cannon-cannon (and threat of gateway before forge)
- 9 overpool vs. "answer to first question"
- 9 pool vs. forge-cannon-cannon-nexus
Assume 3-hatch lair to spire, 4 lings for 12hatch and 8lings for 9pool/overpool. Given that protoss chooses the safe response to the zergs opening, what zerg opening puts zerg in the best economical position? How does the economical position compare to the other scenarios?
I know it is vague and too many variables to actually numbercrunch but try to give an estimate based on your experience and feeling for the matchup.
On April 25 2009 22:06 FortuneSyn wrote:
Thanks alot for the input, especially the 9pool vs overpool data. But what I am still not convinced about is whether or not 12 hatch is superior to 9pool/overpool. If so, how big is this difference?
Assumptions
- on python, protoss scouts zerg before he is forced to put down forge.
- if zerg 12hatched, protoss is unable to block drone.
There are 2 scenarios:
1) zerg goes 12 hatch-4lings-3hatch lair. Protoss responds with nexus-forge-cannon (or gateway)
2) zerg goes overpool-6lings-3hatch lair(+2 lings to chase probe). Protoss responds with forge-cannon-cannon
In which of these 2 scenarios is zerg in a better economic position? Would you rather have protoss go nexus first vs 12hatch or go forge-cannon-cannon vs overpool?
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First question: forge cannon cannon on a map such as python. Forge nexus cannon is viable on most bigger maps such as the courage maps. Just cut probes at 13 and make sure the cannons are as soon as you have the money for them after nexus.
9 pool or 12 hatch is better than overpool given that p can respond with forge nexus to overpool. 9 pool on 2 player maps, 12 hatch on 4 player maps because there's a chance that the p will only scout you after forge is done.
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i dont really understand your question but i'm going to randomly answer it anyway. i like to open overpool because it gives the zerg a lot of flexibility and forces the protoss to adapt. if the protoss decides to be overly safe you can adjust and double expo while denying scouts and you can adjust to them if they decide to try and kill you. you have to be really active in scouting yourself though and it's really hard to get used to since it feels less safe than a 12 hatch and you have more options than a 9 pool speed. basically if the protoss is overly safe you are making like 60 supply of drones with 8 speedlings just denying scouts so you have to start producing units at just the right time when the protoss moves out with their stupid ball.
or maybe i have no idea what i'm talking about who knows!?
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12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build.
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On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build.
99% of them do. You get a couple 1 gate techs every now and then. And no, vs a non-FE build such as 1 gate tech, you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build.
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12hatch is better against 1gate builds than any pool build.
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On April 25 2009 14:38 koreasilver wrote:
12hatch is better against 1gate builds than any pool build.
This man speaks the truth
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The only qualms I have with 12hatch is that it is sometimes difficult to play against extremely dedicated and aggressive 2gate proxy builds, and that if the opponent is planning on FE and scouts you first, he begins with a slight advantage, unless you scout his double nexus and no pool 3hatch in response.
If the distance between you and the Protoss is rather short, and you opened with a pool first build and the Protoss opened 1gate tech, you can find some difficulty. On a map with huge distances and 100% initial scouting like Destination it isn't much of a problem, but if it's something like 12/3 on Python it really irks me.
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On April 25 2009 14:38 koreasilver wrote:
12hatch is better against 1gate builds than any pool build.
true. to keep your army as strong as the protosses you need to speend basically all your larva on zerglings off 1-2 hatches early on. While pumping zealots he can also makes probes from his nexus. Therefore his army and econ are increasing, while only your army is.
As for OP, most of those answers can be found in the ZvP 5 hatch hydra > muta guide. Go overpool on 2/3 player maps or maps with short distances, and 9pool on 4 player maps.
This way, you force him to make 2 cannons before his nexus, and you come out slightly ahead economically. A trick I like to do is save 3 larva that you would use to build lings with if he has a probe scouting you, and when your pool finishes, morph 3 drones instead of 6 lings. He will assume they are zlings and get 2 cannons, even though you are just drone whoring.
EDIT: Or just 12hatch.
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On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine.
overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do).
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On April 25 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine. overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do).
and that's the reason why half of the koreans 9pool in ZvP...
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Because forge FE is standardized in PvZ to the point where it is assumed that every Protoss is going to forge FE.
And nearly all of them do.
They generally overpool rather than 9pool, at that.
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The difference between 9 pool and overpool:
Note: all the timing below is based on destination, although they should be very similar if not identical on most recent maps.
9 pool with gas (10/9) trick before overlord:
6 lings out 2:18
2nd hatch down 2:18, make 2 drones before third hatch
3rd hatch down 3:00
Overpool:
2nd hatch down 2:03 (before lings)
6 lings out: 2:34, 8 lings out: 2:47
3rd hatch down: 2:51
With overpool, you get 1 more drone than 9 pool, and your 2nd-3rd hatch complete about 25 seconds earlier in total, roughly enough time for 1.5 more drones. Overpool has a better econ but the difference is not that great. What really matters is the ling timing, as 9 pool gets 6 lings about 15 seconds faster. So, regardless of map distance, lings from 9 pool will get to the enemy base 15 seconds faster than overpool.
What you need to consider is 1. map distance, and 2. whether the layout of the nat allows a near perfect building block. If the map distance is short like python or the nat is difficult to block like tears of the moon, then overpool is enough to force 2 cannons before nexus, whereas if the map distance is far like longinus or the nat is easy to block like destination, I would go 9 pool so that P is less tempted to skip a cannon, and in case if he does, the faster lings will give me a better chance to punish him.
Note that in overpool if you make hatch before lings like the example above, you cannot make 6 lings at once, the last pair will be delayed by 1-2 seconds. So in theory you can do that to get slightly faster lings at the cost of a slower hatch, although I've never seen any game coming down to that 1 extra second. Since if you choose overpool, I assume you did it on a map where it is good enough to force 2 cannons anyway, so you might as well get the hatch first.
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If you dont make the 6 lings with overpool and hatch first, toss can get away with 1 cannon -> nexus.
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At lower level on iccup many P players cheese with double 9 gate or even proxy, typically I avoid 12 hatch on cheese friendly maps such as python. Also, on 2 player maps where it is guaranteed that the probe can harass and delay your 12 hatch attempt, I usually prefer not to deal with it and just go with 9 pool or overpool.
But overall, 12 hatch is indeed the best opening, vs anything other than hardcore 9/9 gate rush or proxy.
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On April 25 2009 17:51 Cloud wrote:
If you dont make the 6 lings with overpool and hatch first, toss can get away with 1 cannon -> nexus.
The extra 1-2 second rarely matters, usually the map dictates whether P can 1 cannon-> nexus vs overpool, regardless of whether you make lings or hatch first.
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Im pretty damn sure its more than just 1-2 seconds and as for the maps, both destination and bluestorm allow for cannon nexus if you dont hatch all lings fast.
I just tested it and the 2nd pair gets delayed by 2-3 seconds and the 3rd pair by about another 2-3 seconds after the 2nd one hatches.
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On April 25 2009 18:10 Cloud wrote:
Im pretty damn sure its more than just 1-2 seconds and as for the maps, both destination and bluestorm allow for cannon nexus if you dont hatch all lings fast.
As for destination, overpool can never force 2 cannons due to the layout of the nat, P can easily form a perfect building block with 2-3 probes to protect an almost unreachable cannon and at the same time denying any run by routes. Overpool on desti is simply bad.
EDIT: I just tested again, I was able to make 4 lings after hatch first, and the delay of the third pair was 2 seconds. I did send all my drones to the closest minerals and I made sure my 10th and 11th drone was sent to a mineral so that they can mine as soon as the previous one leaves, so may be I got some more minerals than you.
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Overpool with hatch before lings is about the best opening on desti imo.
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Thanks alot for the input, especially the 9pool vs overpool data. But what I am still not convinced about is whether or not 12 hatch is superior to 9pool/overpool. If so, how big is this difference?
Assumptions
- on python, protoss scouts zerg before he is forced to put down forge.
- if zerg 12hatched, protoss is unable to block drone.
There are 2 scenarios:
1) zerg goes 12 hatch-4lings-3hatch lair. Protoss responds with nexus-forge-cannon (or gateway)
2) zerg goes overpool-6lings-3hatch lair(+2 lings to chase probe). Protoss responds with forge-cannon-cannon
In which of these 2 scenarios is zerg in a better economic position? Would you rather have protoss go nexus first vs 12hatch or go forge-cannon-cannon vs overpool?
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On April 25 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine.
overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do).
I'd disagree. Overpool is pretty effective in ZvP as you are trying to halt the nexus as long as possible. Also Overpool is great on maps like Destination where you will be scouted immediately (if the P is intelligent) and he will see your pool going up and be in a position to make cannons first.
If you 12 hatch then I'm going to just 13/14 nexus and cannon after. Or if I'm feeling aggressive I will make the gateway first and then just one cannon to start. 12 hatch is great for boosting Z economy early, but if it's nullified by an expand on the Protoss side, then whats the point?
Just to note:
14 Nexus gets you a completed Nexus by about 18/25
17/18 Nexus gets you a completed Nexus by about 21/25
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On April 25 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine. overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do).
I know that you're a strong Z on iccup, but i don't really understand your strategics play. I mean, what's the point of P doing gates later than 9/10 (extremely uncommon) if he can either FE or 1 gate build in almost every map ?
And P goes FE about 90% of the time, so it's better to build Pool first in order to make him put 2 canons before nexus. Not to mention 10-12 glings can easily take 2 canons which a lot of P are lazy to defend lately. Dunno about C- protoss and above yet, but i guess they're more cautious obv.
Whereas if you did put 12 hatch you'd just be behind because of the P whoring probe and gate without putting any canon at best. So hatch 12 the best opening ? Sorry don't think so 
You're only ahead against 1 gate build or 2 gates but that's only 10% of them on iccup hell even less.
Unless you wanted to answer to stevenick about pooling first being best build against 1 gate tech which is not i agree. H12 is way better for 1 gate build or gate later than 9/10 (Even so i'd put h11 in order to prevent this hard rush more easily)
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12 Hatch is the best possible opening zerg can hope for, it has a stronger economy, and on 3-4 player maps the protoss will almost always place a forge first, unless he gets a tad lucky with his scout, and even if he scouts the zerg in the first position, the zerg will not always have expanded at the front nat (like medusa, andromeda or gods garden), not seeing a hatch at that position will be an automatic trigger for a forge for many protosses.
12 hatch openings also have much easier timings, and earlier as well. To the people saying that overpool is best because you force 2 cannons, well first thats not always the case, especially on 4 player maps with diagonal positions and second youre just guessing that overpool has a better econ vs a 2 cannon -> nexus than 12 hatch has vs a forge -> nexus or even 12/14 nexus. Besides you can also force 2 cannons with a 12 hatch opening, before he places his gateway, which may not have the economical implications of an overpool but it delays his tech because of the later gateway and gas, while your own tech can come out nicely timed at the cost of a couple of drones.
And 9/10 gates, proxy gates and a single 9 (or earlier) gate are better countered by an overpool or 9 pool than with a 12 hatch. The exception being a 10 gate -> gas, where 12 hatch does best.
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On April 25 2009 16:02 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine. overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do). and that's the reason why half of the koreans 9pool in ZvP...
Umm actually the reason half the koreans 9pool or overpool z v p is because most protoss (read 90% even on iccup) are too smart to go 1 base. So it is a versus FE aggressive opening.
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On April 25 2009 22:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 15:12 AttackZerg wrote:On April 25 2009 14:21 b3h47pte wrote:On April 25 2009 14:02 SteveNick wrote:
12hatch is the safest opening as Zerg, imo.
Not all Protoss' open FE every game, so if you 12hatch you're going to be in better shape versus any sort of non-FE build. you're definitely better off doing something like overpool speed or 9 pool or some pool-first build. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Sorry 12hat is the optimal way to face every single protoss opening, except dual proxy 9/9- 9/10 and even then it can work out just fine.
overpool/9pool/12pool are the easiest ways to get far behind against any 1gate play or two gate. ESP considering the macro/army/tech implications of having less larva to change gears and squeeze in the needed drones to gain an advantage against 1base play (which zergs easily do). I'd disagree. Overpool is pretty effective in ZvP as you are trying to halt the nexus as long as possible. Also Overpool is great on maps like Destination where you will be scouted immediately (if the P is intelligent) and he will see your pool going up and be in a position to make cannons first. If you 12 hatch then I'm going to just 13/14 nexus and cannon after. Or if I'm feeling aggressive I will make the gateway first and then just one cannon to start. 12 hatch is great for boosting Z economy early, but if it's nullified by an expand on the Protoss side, then whats the point? Just to note: 14 Nexus gets you a completed Nexus by about 18/25 17/18 Nexus gets you a completed Nexus by about 21/25
I'm sorry I forgot to clarify this point.
12 hat is the best possible opening AGAINST any 2gate or 1 gate play, but imo is NOT the most optimal play against FE because of the protoss abiltiy to tech incredibly fast while producing zealots. Put zerg in any early game "guns or butter" situation.
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