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On March 11 2009 11:18 Artosis wrote:
couple suggestions:
if your opponent goes pool first, delay your cc and get more marines.
this build is for vs 3 hatchery builds. 2 hatchery muta will beat it. if they go 2 hatchery you need to push the factory timing and 3rd rax timings way back, turrets faster, range faster.
On March 11 2009 12:06 IdrA wrote:
if they overpool and you scout them first, make a bunker on the low ground by your exp and cc after 2 marines, unless theyre gonna ling allin. scvs blocking ramp.
Good info, Ill try to add as much stuff like this as I can to help make the guide more complete.
On March 11 2009 06:28 YPang wrote:
Can i see a replay of this BO? If you already posted it, then im dumb.
Best replay of the straight BO is mind vrs jaedong on othello, although in that rep jaedong raped him with early lings and muta harass so he ends up getting range/+1 before fact.
On March 11 2009 13:03 ilovejonn wrote:
lolol i just read {88}iNcontroL on TvZ
as a terran myself, i now feel imba
haha yeah that was an awesome rant I had to include it
On March 11 2009 19:30 Keniji wrote:
It would be so awesome if you could upload your replays (the progamer replays u used) of the strategy.
It's so much easier to understand a bo with replays.
I haven't found a good replay of 18/19 CC with fast 2nd rax into 3 rax fac/starpor yet. Probably I'm extremly bad at searching.
Most of the replays I got off of TL, there was two games on othello including JD mind that were good, and there was also an older game on python and one from flash on blue storm. Also I would watch the arena MSL finals from forGG and jaedong, really good elements of timing attack build orders (I think twice he did 2nd rax and early ebay BO).
JD vs Mind would be the best one to see the BO even though he lost the game. I'm trying to get a good replay/fpvod of me attempting this build but artosis says I cant play on python and I keep getting all-in'd on medusa
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Seems like a good build. Try it on andromeda, medusa is mostly good for mechbuilds and 14 cc etc imo.
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It is a good build. Despite the ridiculousness of the last thread, petzergling put a lot of thought into this and it's legitimately helpful. Good work.
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What time are you suposed to push with this? using something ruoghly like it(Pushed when i had 3 tanks from straight pump and my first vessel) i managed to get there at 11 minutes is it suposed to be that late or should it be earlier?
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On March 11 2009 21:56 StylishVODs wrote:
Seems like a good build. Try it on andromeda, medusa is mostly good for mechbuilds and 14 cc etc imo.
eh andromeda isnt so great for any kind of timing push because of the free min only and the massive push distances. sea's tvz on andro is the best ive seen, all of the styles he plays on it. better to just mimic him. (actually i think i remember him timing pushing vs yarnc, but it failed. dont mimic that game)
of the current active maps tau cross and rushhour and harmony are good for a 3 rax 1 vessel timing push
medusa and desti require gimmicky shit, 2 rax tech is freewin on chupung and colo is kinda weird in general.
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On March 12 2009 12:07 IdrA wrote:
sea's tvz on andro is the best ive seen
Yep. Without a doubt.
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CC at 15?
man i feel risky putting it down at 19...
i gotta work in this BO..
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On March 12 2009 12:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2009 21:56 StylishVODs wrote:
Seems like a good build. Try it on andromeda, medusa is mostly good for mechbuilds and 14 cc etc imo. eh andromeda isnt so great for any kind of timing push because of the free min only and the massive push distances. sea's tvz on andro is the best ive seen, all of the styles he plays on it. better to just mimic him. (actually i think i remember him timing pushing vs yarnc, but it failed. dont mimic that game) of the current active maps tau cross and rushhour and harmony are good for a 3 rax 1 vessel timing push medusa and desti require gimmicky shit, 2 rax tech is freewin on chupung and colo is kinda weird in general.
STOP ACTING NICE, ITS NOT LIKE YOU!
NICE POST ZERGLING ;D! SAY HI TO DAZ FOR MEEEEEE!
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On March 12 2009 12:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2009 21:56 StylishVODs wrote:
Seems like a good build. Try it on andromeda, medusa is mostly good for mechbuilds and 14 cc etc imo. eh andromeda isnt so great for any kind of timing push because of the free min only and the massive push distances. sea's tvz on andro is the best ive seen, all of the styles he plays on it. better to just mimic him. (actually i think i remember him timing pushing vs yarnc, but it failed. dont mimic that game) of the current active maps tau cross and rushhour and harmony are good for a 3 rax 1 vessel timing push medusa and desti require gimmicky shit, 2 rax tech is freewin on chupung and colo is kinda weird in general.
Yes I know, I though he had to chose a map of the week because of his earlier post, and I think andromeda is better than medusa for this sort of push. Because on medusa you can 14nexus or mech and its also harder to defend vs mutalisks on medusa than andromeda.
This + you have the same benefit of a mineralonly on both maps.
Also the push distance isnt that massive on 11 vs 7 or 1 vs 5.
edit* now i cannot find the post where he made me think that but it was something like fakesteve wouldnt let him show this on python so he would do it on medusa or whatever, and i thought fakesteve wanted him to show it on a recently used map or a motw.
maybe it was artosis doesn't matter;).
I also like sea's style here, specially the 4rax preassure into battlecruisers to draw scourges and then dualdrop, that was awesome.
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artosis i think not fakesteve
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On March 12 2009 17:26 SkepTicAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2009 12:07 IdrA wrote:On March 11 2009 21:56 StylishVODs wrote:
Seems like a good build. Try it on andromeda, medusa is mostly good for mechbuilds and 14 cc etc imo. eh andromeda isnt so great for any kind of timing push because of the free min only and the massive push distances. sea's tvz on andro is the best ive seen, all of the styles he plays on it. better to just mimic him. (actually i think i remember him timing pushing vs yarnc, but it failed. dont mimic that game) of the current active maps tau cross and rushhour and harmony are good for a 3 rax 1 vessel timing push medusa and desti require gimmicky shit, 2 rax tech is freewin on chupung and colo is kinda weird in general. STOP ACTING NICE, ITS NOT LIKE YOU! NICE POST ZERGLING ;D! SAY HI TO DAZ FOR MEEEEEE!
are you retarded or something?
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Definately going to play 100 or so games with this build on ICC over the weekend and get it down
Thanks alot man, lots of nice stuff coming out on the strategy forum lately
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On March 12 2009 17:15 dekuschrub wrote:
CC at 15?
man i feel risky putting it down at 19...
i gotta work in this BO..
Depends on map. On destination its AMAZING to put CC on 15, as you can scout them every time and know if they are 12 hatching. Just don't get greedy and put down 15 cc if u didn't scout them. It seems wierd at first (I learned terran by putting down 2 rax, building 8 marines, then expanding) but when you get used to it you get a huge boner every time you see 12 hatch.
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yeah so what is the time this build allows you to push at? if done correctly and muta harass managed well that is
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Wow.. I'm liking this thread! ^^ Great guide.. never seen a buildorder-guide that goes this deep into every single supply timing ;D Thanks alot!
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Sooo... so far I've been playing with Artosis TvZ build. Is this one better? Which would you better players recommend?
Pros/cons etc.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
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On March 13 2009 06:05 Zoler wrote:
Sooo... so far I've been playing with Artosis TvZ build. Is this one better? Which would you better players recommend?
Pros/cons etc.
petzergling wrote:
What this guide is NOT for:
-Saying this build is somehow better then any other or that others are executing this build order wrong. This IS the 1/3 han bang done by many top pros.
With keeping that in mind, here is my two cents --
Artosis' Build:
Safe against 9 pool, it will almost never catch you offguard -- also if opponent goes 8 lings instead of 2/6 and tries to fuck your expansion up after a 12 hatch you wont have problems. I don't think the build he posted was meant to be a guide, it was more of a basic outline of standard TvZ play to illustrate his point.
One thing about it (that I didn't think was a problem but everyone else does) Is the fact that he suggests range and +1 weapons before factory. This is what I've always done, but i was flamed mercilessly for posting that this is a good idea in my guide -- and I changed the guide as well as my play to include factory before +1 and range.
Range and +1 early are good against pressure builds but overall I think its better for your tech timing to get factory and starport first. Also he recommends getting an earlier ebay and barracks then I have in mine, and I don't think thats achievable without cutting marines after about 7/8 which isn't a terrible idea but kind of makes you vulnerable to all in attacks.
Sylish's Build:
Personally looking at it I think its extremely similar to what I was going for. The only problem I have with this build as well as Artosis' is that it doesn't include the 15cc variant. Although its only if you first scout, look at it in terms of courage maps:
Destination: 100% of the time
Medusa: 50% of the time (higher if you learn overlord patterns)
Colos 2: 25% of the time.
So easily over half of the time you will be using this variant (or atleast have the POSSIBLITY of using it). Not to say 2nd depot before CC is incorrect, but to perfect your early game terran play I would recommend going for 15CC always. Sure you could argue that "cus everyone plays python you wont first scout". I tried to base my play on top level play (not my own) so I based it on play on new age maps, not iccup favorites.
Anyway back to his build, really its extremely similar to mine. Basically the difference is that he doesn't get a 3rd rax all the way until his science facility tech, and gets his push out slightly faster. This is preference, and here are a few pros and cons of the strats
2 rax into sci vessel tech:
Gets factory and vessel out faster for 2 hatchery builds
Gives bigger timing window
Able to punish zerg easier if failed muta harass or lurker attack
More unforgiving with marines, take damage from muta or lurker and you lost your timing window
Harder to transfer from push to quick third base -- if opponent stays on lair for a 4th gas you have a harder time punishing that by macroing and expanding on your own.
3 rax into vessel tech
You have more units going into the mid game to make you more slightly more flexible -- allowing you to take expansions earlier then you normally could with 2 barracks.
More marines also mean losing a few will impact your overall play less.
Not many timing windows to attack before your vessel comes out.
Smaller timing window -- you must have strong push control and game sense to execute properly against another high level player.
Factory and Starport are delayed -- against 2 hatchery builds I would almost not even recommend this build.
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Oh thx, I guess I'll go with the "9 min push" then hehe, after all I know Stylish skill and I also like Flash hehe.
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EPT
