|
On March 09 2009 08:23 Aurious wrote:This thread is just a cover up! what lols really means is don't suicide your lurk ling army before hive 
lol?? thanks for the clarifications I guess.
On March 09 2009 08:50 PH wrote:
When do you get a second evo chamber for melee upgrades?
I get it when hive is almost finished. The timing should also be when carapace finish, so I can start +2 carapace and +1 melee at the same time.
|
I know the issues has been addressed but I still always seem to find myself in a position where terran has a massive ball of vessels ie: 10+. It is not always possible to scourge the vessels, especially when they are aggressive. Irradiate from those vessels tend to completely negate any Hive play I have, so how do you deal with it? I've seen some pro's plague the vessels and snipe it with a muta, but that rarely works for me as well.
|
On March 09 2009 16:05 Shado. wrote:
I know the issues has been addressed but I still always seem to find myself in a position where terran has a massive ball of vessels ie: 10+. It is not always possible to scourge the vessels, especially when they are aggressive. Irradiate from those vessels tend to completely negate any Hive play I have, so how do you deal with it? I've seen some pro's plague the vessels and snipe it with a muta, but that rarely works for me as well.
When you are trying to kill vessels, you must first find a way to kill/distract the supporting m&m. Plague is great for this, if you can just plague everything, then his army will be weak, do a swarm push on him and pick off the vessels while his army is dying. The muta trick is neat, and it's not difficult once you plague the vessels. The key is to get good plagues on him in the first place, so that is what u really need to practice, once you are good with plagues, killings vessels will be much easier. Refer back to step 2 and 4 in the guide.
|
This is a question about point 1 of Standard ZvT.
I usually do a longer lair style because my defiler micro is so crappy, meaning I get more weapon/armor upgrades, more lurkers and just flank the first push. I also have the opportunity to tech drop because of this since I have lair at this point rather than a morphing hive. Is there a flaw in this style? Would I be better off just learning to use defilers to beat back the push? Thanks, and I also think the other points are really good.
|
Very useful guide. I have reached C but I feel my ZvT is a low C- level at best. This surely helps get the timings down.
|
link to your iccup account? you make it sound so easy
|
|
|
|
|
On March 09 2009 16:27 qaswedfr25 wrote:
This is a question about point 1 of Standard ZvT.
I usually do a longer lair style because my defiler micro is so crappy, meaning I get more weapon/armor upgrades, more lurkers and just flank the first push. I also have the opportunity to tech drop because of this since I have lair at this point rather than a morphing hive. Is there a flaw in this style? Would I be better off just learning to use defilers to beat back the push? Thanks, and I also think the other points are really good.
The only time I play delayed hive is when I do hydra/lurker vs 2 port wraith into m&m. Normally fast hive is rather standard. I think you should practice defiler use, that will help you the most in the long run. For delayed hive, if T plays correctly and hordes up tanks before he pushes you, say like 10 siege tanks + 3-4 groups of m&m, it doesn't matter how many lurkers/lings you have, without defiler it's not gonna be an easy fight.
On March 09 2009 17:00 Shado. wrote:
currently third highest American
lol? where do you get that?
|
|
|
Oh, haha, I guess I can at least pretend to be gosu for a bit. XD
|
|
|
A couple questions. .
I'm at a point in my play where I'm usually able to secure my third gas with little problems, but I am often steamrolled shortly after that (during my transition to hive play) and I'm wondering if it may have to do with my hive timing - it seems that it is either too early or too late. What is a comfortable in between and how do you determine that "trigger" for yourself?
I often used to make buildings in this way assuming standard ZvT after muta: 4th hatchery (at expo), evo, den (though the hatch order sometimes varies depending on Terran's marine pressure/barracks #), and after about 5 lurkers I would get hive. Is this hive timing too soon?
I often try to get those lurks out for a soft contain and transition into hive while reinforcing with more lurkers, but I'm not sure if this is working so much anymore, as I seem to encounter Terrans with better timing.
- -
I am also starting to play with 2 hatch muta more often (I really like the build) and I am wondering if it is an absolute necessity to ALWAYS transition into guardians / hive or is it possible (using the third gas from your expo) to transition into lurkers? Is +1 attack with mutas useless / useful? (Can you only transition into lurkers this when you're already so far ahead from damage you caused - from the muta - that it won't matter either way?).
Anyway, thanks for any help (and thanks for the guide). Last season I hit C+ for the first time (only my 2nd season playing woohoo! with decent stats) and would really like to get into high C+ or at least hit B- this season if I can. Thanks again!
|
On March 10 2009 01:22 Rayzorblade wrote:
A couple questions. .
I'm at a point in my play where I'm usually able to secure my third gas with little problems, but I am often steamrolled shortly after that (during my transition to hive play) and I'm wondering if it may have to do with my hive timing - it seems that it is either too early or too late. What is a comfortable in between and how do you determine that "trigger" for yourself?
I often used to make buildings in this way assuming standard ZvT after muta: 4th hatchery (at expo), evo, den (though the hatch order sometimes varies depending on Terran's marine pressure/barracks #), and after about 5 lurkers I would get hive. Is this hive timing too soon?
I am also starting to play with 2 hatch muta more often (I really like the build) and I am wondering if it is an absolute necessity to ALWAYS transition into guardians / hive or is it possible (using the third gas from your expo) to transition into lurkers? Is +1 attack with mutas useless / useful? (Can you only transition into lurkers this when you're already so far ahead from damage you caused - from the muta - that it won't matter either way?).
My triggers are 9 mutsa -> expo -> 2 more mutas -> den ->lurker aspect + chamber -> carapace + queens -> hive when queens finish. My hive starts when my first batch of lurkers are morphing.
You said you get hive after 5 lurkers, you mean queens nest or actual hive? If you start hive after 5 lurkers your hive timing is only a few seconds slower than mine. It is a fast hive build, but I don't think it's ever too early for defilers XD.
With 2 hatch, you don't have to go guardians. I've seen most Z transition into fast lurkers vs 1 base T play, vs FE I think either way is fine.
|
On March 09 2009 05:54 w3jjjj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2009 05:26 EsX_Raptor wrote:
When do you get your ultras? As soon as 4th gas is being mined? I'm glad ppl are asking questions  , your usual TL threads are full of "you are a noob, no you are a noob, no no you are THE noob" kind of comments... I try to put down my ultra cavern when plague starts, that way when both ultra armor and speed finish, my +3 carapace will also finish, so I can make 5-2 ultras, with +3 melee attack coming. I guess to answer your question, I start making ultras when most of the upgrades have finished. I feel that to make ultras before those upgrades is a waste of resources, cuz you are not getting the most out of your money, you spend the same 200/200 for less powerful ultras, when that money could go to more defilers/lurkers/upgrades.
I'm of a different belief here.
Lurkers are better than ultras for defending, and ultras are better than lurkers when trying to kill a mobile army. Hence, unless you want to incorporate ensnare, you should get ultras whenever you need to gain map control to keep expanding. Though you still have to wait for the ultra speed upgrade no matter what, slow ultras just suck.
In most cases you won't be able to get that fifth gas down without map control, it would be really nooby of the terran to allow that. This is the origin of the old 4 gas=ultras rule.
Even though lols have already said it, I'd like to stress how bloody important it is to threaten his ground army at the same time as you go for his vessels. This is the only way to kill vessels without the terran fucking something up.
If a map does not have another main/nat that can be camped up for 4 gases off 2 chokes, there is often other chokes in the middle of the map that be defended. On Destination for example, you may camp up your 5/11 base with one group lurk/defiler/ling, and another group stationed in-between your main and 8/2 base should be able to reach both these bases in time to defend them. On rare occasions you will be pressured by three different armies at the same time, but microing that will be just as hellish for him as for you. Another possibility for Destination would be to get the 5/11 base and then the related high group exp. Defend the high ground exp with a swarm on the outer ramp and defend the rest with an army in the middle of your half.
|
On March 10 2009 03:20 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Lurkers are better than ultras for defending, and ultras are better than lurkers when trying to kill a mobile army. Hence, unless you want to incorporate ensnare, you should get ultras whenever you need to gain map control to keep expanding. Though you still have to wait for the ultra speed upgrade no matter what, slow ultras just suck.
In most cases you won't be able to get that fifth gas down without map control, it would be really nooby of the terran to allow that. This is the origin of the old 4 gas=ultras rule.
On the ultra timing, are u getting speed first and then make ultras before armor? Cuz if you get both armor and speed before making ultras you should have at least +2 carapace with +3 finishing up, which is when I would normally start ultra production. Even if you need map control, ultras without upgrades are pretty bad and cost too much for their worth.
On 5th gas, I think if you can sneak lurkers out of any exit you can take another expo, it's really the same concept as sneaking units out to counter. On python I usually sneak out 3-4 lurkers and a defiler to the empty main and try to hold that ramp till nydus finish. However, I do agree that if T is good, securing those new expos is very difficult without map control, cuz before nydus finishes it's impossible to reinforce should T decide to attack with his army. On the other hand, if T does attack with his army, I can always take an expo elsewhere, or use that window to counter his bases.
Very good point on the defense part, I'll add that into the guide. XD
|
This was extremely helpful; thanks for putting it together! Do you have a replay or two you could share with us that shows really standard play?
|
On March 10 2009 03:37 w3jjjj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2009 03:20 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Lurkers are better than ultras for defending, and ultras are better than lurkers when trying to kill a mobile army. Hence, unless you want to incorporate ensnare, you should get ultras whenever you need to gain map control to keep expanding. Though you still have to wait for the ultra speed upgrade no matter what, slow ultras just suck.
In most cases you won't be able to get that fifth gas down without map control, it would be really nooby of the terran to allow that. This is the origin of the old 4 gas=ultras rule.
On the ultra timing, are u getting speed first and then make ultras before armor? Cuz if you get both armor and speed before making ultras you should have at least +2 carapace with +3 finishing up, which is when I would normally start ultra production. Even if you need map control, ultras without upgrades are pretty bad and cost too much for their worth.
The idea is to time your ultralisk upgrades to match your need of map control rather than the progress of your evolution chamber upgrades. Of course you could start your evolution chamber upgrades to make the two events occur at the same time in a "standard game". However, if you had your evolution chamber smashed down or simply forgot your build I think it is more important to go with the map control.
On 5th gas, I think if you can sneak lurkers out of any exit you can take another expo, it's really the same concept as sneaking units out to counter. On python I usually sneak out 3-4 lurkers and a defiler to the empty main and try to hold that ramp till nydus finish. However, I do agree that if T is good, securing those new expos is very difficult without map control, cuz before nydus finishes it's impossible to reinforce should T decide to attack with his army. On the other hand, if T does attack with his army, I can always take an expo elsewhere, or use that window to counter his bases.
Something as simple as a vessel raid followed by a group of m&m straight out of his raxes should spell the doom of that expo. Or a well microed drop. Though the benefits are great if you can get the nydus up. I dunno if it's the worth attempt. Having your army caught on the way there wouldn't be nice either. I often try the same without attempting to defend it before the nydus is up. Though I have to admit that I never have attempted to sneak out a force to defend it so I'm merely theorycrafting.
And I don't think a counter attack is ever a good idea if he has started laying mines all over the place, many terrans do, some do not though.
Also fixed two typos in the section you quoted.
|
Alright now I see what you are saying with the ultras. I've never played it that way, every time I made ultras before they have good upgrades I ended up losing.
Take a look at this game I just played. The opponent is a strange low apm T who was 43-18 C+ last season. I went a super fast hive to get guardians, but my mutas did too much damage so the game didn't go that way. This was a T who literally spent all his little apm in laying mines all over the map, but I did what I suggested in the guide and it went alright.
It wasn't a hard game, but I think it shows what I mean in the guide. And I guess I'm asking about how to deal with those mines? I've seen pros use a few lings in front to take mines but that didn't work for me. I waited for ultras before engaging directly due to the fear of mines.
Replay:
http://rapidshare.com/files/207316940/0311_smilolsZ_RoXExKT.rep.html
Thanks
|
this is a really good guide
what lower level players like me really need are references on exactly when to do stuff (when to build the hydralisk den, when to upgrade carapace, etc.) or else we just build stuff whenever we feel like it/remember it
...which is no good...
thanks lols
i really like your strategy threads
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
