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nice thread, read through most of it and i have had a couple a questions for a while...
General~
Timing - I have been following SC but not playing it as much as I would like but I know this word came about sometime ago. Exactly what is "timing". Is it hitting your opponent when he is at his weakess point or you are at your strongest? Example I think I know of one in most TvP where the terran will push out and assume he will engage his army by the time his +1 Weapon finishes. Can you give an example of a more specific "timing" attack.
Mechanics - I see this word used a lot too. Is this just the bare basics and knowledge of the game? Micro Macro and management of the entire game or what exactly is this?
1. If your economy is booming and your macro is getting you up to the 1k area *mostly in the tvz area* is it a better idea to just make extra barracks or starports/facts?
TvP~
1. what builds are good for what type of maps? I saw that you said some builds just won't work on certain maps for example the "Flash" build won't work on Python you said because you can't secure your third easily. I also saw that you said you can't use 2 fact opening on Destination because the map is weird for that build. But why? Is it because of the bridges in the middle and the bridges to get to your opponents base?
2. I see this a lot in TvP games, once they feel comfortable and move out (not sure if its timing based?) I see pro gamers or amateurs move out and either try to go for the kill or they put up a defense from their natural to their third to secure it. Or they either go out to attack and take their third while attacking. What is the right mind set and time to do either one? When do you know if it's good to go attack or stay and make a third and take it into late game?
3. *Scenario* You got your tanks seiged and he is in front of you, you got your mines laid down and you see exactly where his units are. either he bites on you moving up a bit or he keeps backing up until he sees it fit to attack. now my question is when moving your tanks up should you get rid of those mines that are left on the ground or just build more turrets to stop zealot bombs and running zealots in there. also when you have your vultures do you run back to tanks and HOLD them or do you actually target zealots? I have read the both before and am not sure exactly which one I should be doing. Also do you move your tanks up one by one or the entire group?
4. So you get your expansion up and you got mine and speed for vultures. But he has his Dragoons waiting in front of your base and you can't get out and get map control. Would you just move up tanks and seige to get them away and then rush out and take map control? Or just stick to turtling and push out. I find that if you do this they just take the entire map and by then you are way too behind to even win.
5. I have been struggling a lot with this and it is the rallying of your units to your push. I either miss the hotkeys sometimes or I don't think I am doing it fast enough. How do you do this and in exactly what steps do you take to do this. I am pretty sure you are using Fkeys and CTRL your unit buildings but is it just practice that will do the trick? Any way that is better?
TvZ~
1. You scout and he is going a 2 hatch build. And you are already doing your 1 Rack FE build. Would you just add your engineering a bit earlier and make 1-2 turrets with the same scv at your nat and your expo?
2. You scan and see that he is getting a hive up while he is doing his harrass. What should my mind set be. Should I go out and search for his third or for his main? But then again what if I don't have enough units to take out his base.
3. What maps/type of maps are good for what certain builds. Just generalized would be fine. For example what maps are good for SKT or MECH.
4. Since the huge revolution of MECH vs zerg has arose, are a lot of koreans using it over there? Or are most games still bio?
TvT
1. How the fuck do you play this match up?
2. What are good build orders on what type of maps?
3. What BO are better against others, which ones are weak vs others?
4. If you are contained and you only have your natural what is one to do instead of nerd rage and slam your keyboard?
Maybe more later thanks for answering~
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On March 09 2009 00:51 axle135 wrote:
Is the campaign really all that useful for practice? I've just gotten past the one with Duke as a battlecruiser, but I know all the units.
How can I improve my vessel/ vulture micro and macro? I usually end up running out of hotkeys for production.
Personally I wouldn't bother with the campaign, there's nothing in it that you wouldn't learn in a few quick 1v1s.
For micro it just comes down to practice, play many games and use your vultures or vessels as much as physically possible and you will notice yourself getting better with the control. As for macro you can use hotkeys to an extent but when you have too many facts/barracks you'll need to double tap one of your hotkeys to take you to your factories and then just click on each one as quickly as possible and hit 'T' or 'V' to get them all making stuff.
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Hi there Artosis,
Lately i've been destroyed by mass goons on multiple accounts. I know i need more map awareness but aside from that, i'm even being out produced and out manuvered in the early game.
I played two games this morning, the toss went 14 nex both games. On the first one, i got gas stealed so i switched to a MM build and try to push out to his nat. I got there, but then in the instant i went to macro my base he used his probes + goons to kill my MM. I figured this was ok and proceeded to my tank while pumping MM from 3 rax.but by the time he moved out to my base, i only had 1 control group of MM and 1 tank when he had about 10 goons.
Second game, was more of a standard build. Wall scv on 8, 11 rax, 11 gas, 3 scv on gas for fast fac. I scouted the FE again from the toss so i decided to switch to seige expand to try to keep my economy up. By the time my first tank came out, he had a probe and zealot atking my wall, so i got rid of them and continued to take my nat. At this point he was outnumbering my units 2:1 already. and this is while he built 4-5 pylons around the map. thats a lot of minerals, gone, and i was still being out numbered. i scouted mass goons so i pumped tanks from 2 facs and gollies from 3 and vultures from 1. he rallied them outside my base, and when i tried to move out, most of them were killed. thats when i comsated 2 more expos on his half.
I dont know how to make my build any faster, fast gas with 3 scv + fac is the quickest i can get tank, but i still seem to be outdone by goons every game i play
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On March 09 2009 01:32 ProjectVirtue wrote:
Hi there Artosis,
Lately i've been destroyed by mass goons on multiple accounts. I know i need more map awareness but aside from that, i'm even being out produced and out manuvered in the early game.
I played two games this morning, the toss went 14 nex both games. On the first one, i got gas stealed so i switched to a MM build and try to push out to his nat. I got there, but then in the instant i went to macro my base he used his probes + goons to kill my MM. I figured this was ok and proceeded to my tank while pumping MM from 3 rax.but by the time he moved out to my base, i only had 1 control group of MM and 1 tank when he had about 10 goons.
Second game, was more of a standard build. Wall scv on 8, 11 rax, 11 gas, 3 scv on gas for fast fac. I scouted the FE again from the toss so i decided to switch to seige expand to try to keep my economy up. By the time my first tank came out, he had a probe and zealot atking my wall, so i got rid of them and continued to take my nat. At this point he was outnumbering my units 2:1 already. and this is while he built 4-5 pylons around the map. thats a lot of minerals, gone, and i was still being out numbered. i scouted mass goons so i pumped tanks from 2 facs and gollies from 3 and vultures from 1. he rallied them outside my base, and when i tried to move out, most of them were killed. thats when i comsated 2 more expos on his half.
I dont know how to make my build any faster, fast gas with 3 scv + fac is the quickest i can get tank, but i still seem to be outdone by goons every game i play
TvP replays
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Most standard TvZ/TvP build order (now) to practice with?
And.
I've seen so many vods/replays with pros and other players who do 3-4 turrets only at main/nat and keeps loosing scvs anyways. lets say you lose 3 scvs at main and 2 at nat = 250 minerals + lost mining time. Is it not better to get 2-3 turrets more so you have 5 at each mineral line?
It will if you are pro but lets face it none is pro in here who asks questions to you so does it really affect my economy that much if I get 2-3 more turrets instead of loosing 2-3-4-5-6-more scvs?
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why did Idra lost against F91 ? you said that TvZ is he's best matchup and it is at progamer level..
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Geoff has the best post's EVER!!
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On March 09 2009 03:22 Mikami wrote:
why did Idra lost against F91 ? you said that TvZ is he's best matchup and it is at progamer level..
lol. good question.
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Artosis why is it that scv's have 60 hp and all of the other races mining units have 40?
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On March 09 2009 03:14 Lobbo wrote:
Most standard TvZ/TvP build order (now) to practice with?
try this:
On March 09 2009 03:44 anotak wrote:tvz: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88894for tvp: Show nested quote +On January 02 2009 07:03 Hypnosis wrote:TvP 5 Fac push: (this starts with FD) 9 depot 11 barracks 11 gas 15 fac 16 depot addon tank mines 22 depot vulture 30 depot 31-32 CC 33 tank 34 engineering bay 35-36 siege tank 4-5 turrets around base (CC finished so no depot until 42) tank 44 Fac 46 Depot Here is where the 5 fac part comes into play. 49 addon 50 2nd gas, armory, acadamy 51 depot -***as soon as your acadamy is finishing stop scv production and get scanners -***as soon as your armory is finishing stop tank production and make 3 more factories, get +1 attack and then as soon as you can make 2 goliaths in your addon factories and begin getting all your upgrades (vult speed first then GOL RANGE) make a lot of depots because you are going to pump 2 rounds of vultures immediately when your 3 extra factories are completed. From here you should have about 7-8 tanks (there are more tanks in there than i wrote down), 4 gols, 4-6 marines and 10 vultures. Rally your 5 factories outside of your base, expo while you push and attempt to kill the protoss. This build is ridiculously good against reaver builds. a varation of this build is to not expo as you push and add a 6th factory while you push and have the ability to reinforce your army easily (while taking a later expo). http://rapidshare.com/files/178834942/5_fac1.rep.htmlthis is basically the build with some slight variations from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78677¤tpage=13for tvt: Show nested quote +On March 08 2009 15:25 Artosis wrote:
1) the best // safest // most versitile build in tvt is the 1factory 1starport build. there are tons of ways to do it and if you become really really good at executing it then you will be one scary mofo. the 2 big builds for it are the 12gas and the 10gas. 10gas allows you to get 2tanks + siege and 2wraiths + cloak before you start to get low on gas and have to wait before buying more tech units. the 12gas one allows you only siege or cloak. its really up to you which you want to practice. just know that you can't lose any units with this build. most people go for fast expands in tvt and if you use this, keeping your units alive is absolutely key. losing even 1 tank will give them the momentum to roll you over.
I wish I had more exact supply numbers like the other two builds for TvT
I'll go watch a few replays and post up on it i guess.
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On March 09 2009 03:14 Lobbo wrote:
Most standard TvZ/TvP build order (now) to practice with?
And.
I've seen so many vods/replays with pros and other players who do 3-4 turrets only at main/nat and keeps loosing scvs anyways. lets say you lose 3 scvs at main and 2 at nat = 250 minerals + lost mining time. Is it not better to get 2-3 turrets more so you have 5 at each mineral line?
It will if you are pro but lets face it none is pro in here who asks questions to you so does it really affect my economy that much if I get 2-3 more turrets instead of loosing 2-3-4-5-6-more scvs?
For me Fnatic.Never's 11/11 7 marine FD build has worked very nicely for TvP, I recommend you download his replay pack which can be found here: http://www.scforall.com/staminareplaypacks/Stamina1FnaticNeverLadderReplays.rar
For TvZ the standard 1 rax CC build is very strong, see the "Difference between Koreans and Foreigners" thread for that.
And as for the turrets, if you think you need 5 then by all means make them.
On March 09 2009 03:22 Mikami wrote:
why did Idra lost against F91 ? you said that TvZ is he's best matchup and it is at progamer level..
Because IdrA is not at progamer level, at least not yet...
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On March 09 2009 03:47 Machine[USA] wrote:
Artosis why is it that scv's have 60 hp and all of the other races mining units have 40?
SCVs can't regenerate their health or shield. Drones and Probes can.
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On March 09 2009 04:03 Tehinf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2009 03:47 Machine[USA] wrote:
Artosis why is it that scv's have 60 hp and all of the other races mining units have 40? SCVs can't regenerate their health or shield. Drones and Probes can.
I'm pretty sure his question was a joke but your answer is half correct, it's also because they have to sit and construct buildings which leaves them open to more harass than Probes and Drones.
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Artosis, in late game TvP, what are some tips to effectively control a maxed out terran army? I have a problem with pushing with a maxed out army, either getting owned by stasis field or getting caught off guard with my tanks unsieged.
Also, what do you do if the protoss is camping at all directions (e.g. in python) waiting for you to push one of his expos and proceeds to flank the hell out of your army.
Thanks loads!
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LOL artosis ain't going to answer all that questions... but i hope he does... Maybe idra can answer some.. XD
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On March 09 2009 05:17 YPang wrote:
LOL artosis ain't going to answer all that questions... but i hope he does... Maybe idra can answer some.. XD
that would be REALLY nice.
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On March 09 2009 03:47 Machine[USA] wrote:
Artosis why is it that scv's have 60 hp and all of the other races mining units have 40?
cuz theyre black
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I'm a C- zerg. ZvT is probably my worst matchup now. I'm stuck at around 100-110 APM, and no matter how much I focus I just can't get much faster in most games. I find myself choosing between getting defilers and having not horrible macro. Would you recommend I work on my lurker/ling macro or focus on efficient defiler usage? I usually spend really well until my third base is up and saturated, and then suddenly I find myself with 3000 minerals. Switching to ultras is a good way to burn through all that money, but against better terrans I get killed before I have enough to be effective. I just don't seem to be fast enough to do everything, and going mutas usually sets me back because I can't macro well while harassing. Again, I just seem to be too slow to do it all. What would you suggest?
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EPT
