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extracheez
Australia151 Posts
Is there any guide, vod, replay that will help me with defending agaisnt the initial muta attack? No matter what I do with my marines or turrets unless the opponent is below D- I can not defend muta micro. Every zerg player can kill me with mutas alone. For some reason every thread I make needs a replay, so here is me getting owned by a zerg: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7798&key=29542f | ||
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[Fin]Vittu
Canada507 Posts
Since going against 3 hatch muta, assuming you scouted it, you will respond with a 1 rax FE. So, usually my main has 2 turrets behind the mineral line and 3 between the cc and raxes. My natural has 3 near the minerals as well. Make sure you have range upgraded by the times the mutalisks arrive. You should have at least 1 control group of marines and 2-3 medics with +1 weapons 3/4 done. Once the mutas arrive, fight them near the turrets. Do not attack move your marines. A+click on stacked mutas so you focus fire into that one muta to snipe it off. Rinse and repeat. Oh and only "snipe" mutas when they come at you. If they retreat, you retreat. If they come, stim, a+click on one. GG GL HF. | ||
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extracheez
Australia151 Posts
The reason why I'm asking for placement guides is because it seems to matter what I do or how I do it, there is always some major major fault which looses it for me. Either my base is too clumped or too spread out, either my marines are too singlefile or too clumped. I'll A+target a muta though, I wasnt sure if I was to target fire or what. EDIT: I think also in the replay I provided there was the problem of me not teching to science vessels, but even when I do in games where I macro better it still seems to fail because my scv count drops too low from the harras. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7474 Posts
Watch his game on medusa. He is a very macro oriented player. Completely actually. His anti-muta micro isn't that good at all. So he focuses instead of timings his builds/turrets perfectly so he doesn't even need to shuffle them that much. The build he uses in that game works just as well as vs 3 hat muta, although skipping on that many marines isn't good unless you can wall off .... it was his first commentary so learn by watching how a lower apm terran can win ... | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
As for your building placement, your buildings should be tight together but hugging the edge of the map as much as possible, ebay/academy should be very close to your cc, the factory/starport are the only ones that may be a bit separated from the rest. Always build turrets in pairs, 4 in your nat mineral line, in your main, try to make a perimeter with them that surrounds all of your buildings with the turrets range, with your buildings hugging the edge, you will have a lot of space to move and placing a perimeter will be easier, you may also want to have your barracks rallied to the nearest turrets. About micro, A bunch of threads have talked about this already so you can just search, basically mirror the zerg movements, but the most important things are: Always have at least 2 medics and about 8 marines as perpendicular to the mutas path as possible, or at least very tightly clumped, expecially if you have to go through an area where your turrets cant reach. DO NOT stim too much, never force your marines to fight with less than 30 hp or the mutas will start killing 3+ in a single volley, so try to stim before he actually comes, that may discourage him to even try attacking; always focus fire. As for timings, you need to get a good BO down, vs a standard 3 hatch muta, you should have almost 2 groups of mnm by the time his mutas arrive to your base, you must really fuck that up if he can kill you with pure mutas. Ill try to watch the rep later. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
To defend muta, put 3-4 turrets at your main cc, 2-3 near your rax and 3-4 at your expo. You shouldnt really think of building less or a zerg with good muta micro will make you look stupid. Build your rax out of the way (to the side of your main or something) in order to allow your rines room to move. When the mutas come in, stim, move cmd towards muta then attack a specific muta. Alot of the time you'll kill one at the cost of a marine. Make sure you researched range at the right time. gl | ||
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aupstar
Australia912 Posts
Also, don't forget to harass the Zerg at the start to force him to make sunkens. Just moving out halfway after stim is done will usually do the trick (have around 7marines 1 firebat and 1 medic with you when you move out and rally firebats to your ramp to prevent a hidden ling attack). This will slow his mutas down a little and allow you to get your turrets up in time. Don't make too many turrets - make them proportional to the mutas coming - i.e., keep making turrets if he keeps making mutas but this will not usually happen as the zerg will probably convert to a lurker build. Building excess turrets will hurt your economy a lot since your wasting mining time and another 100 minerals on static defense. Remember to always scout because you really want to know where that next zerg base is going to be. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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dibban
Sweden1279 Posts
On February 16 2009 23:32 Piy wrote: don't listen to aupstar, most of what he says is wrong or irrelevant. he's actually correct here :O | ||
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meathook
1289 Posts
I just watched your replay. In this game, it was your shitty BO - not turret placement - that did you in. Your reaction to his build was not optimal - he played normal 12 hatch and you chose to go for 2 rax with academy before expansion. This set you back too much. If you choose to go for a build like that you better do some damage or hope he really screws up at some point because if you sit in your base, like you did, he has all the advantages. I think you defended the mutas ok, not too bad, but could be better. The most important part, imo, is that you did not stop building turrets. The best way is if you have a sizable MM force by the time his mutas arrive, then you split them in two; one group in main and one in the other place you think he will attack (natural) place your rines close to the turrets while they are building. Also, consider micro: do not let your rines chase the mutas, this is what a Zerg wants, the rines end up forming a line usually and if Z has decent micro he can eat that whole group. Instead, stim and hold position your MM group in key positions. Place turrets at your production facilities (don't need so many here usually) and buildings that you think he might try to attack while they are building to delay them (sci-fi, factory, tech buildings in general). And of course place turrets at the mineral lines. As mentioned earlier, amount of turrets depends on map; maps with cliffs surrounding the natural(othello, bluestorm, longi, destination) should have more turrets there because if Zerg knows how to micro, he can raise that base with ease. Edit: Added some thoughts. | ||
SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
Edit: But in regards to turret placement, I think the people here have done a pretty good job in explaining the concept of turret placement. But you also want to make sure that you only keep building turrets if you know he's going to continue with Muta harrass. Like some said, Z-players switch to lurker tech after muta harrass, so it is pointless to keep wasting minerals on turrets that are no longer going to be in use. So keep building if muta harrass continues, but if the z-player decides to stop, then ease up on the turret production. | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
When sieging a zerg's nat you're actually using tanks and keeping the marines back to protect them; they're supporting the siege. When fighting mutalisks turrets have a larger range and thus hit the mutas before they get close, you use the marines to protect the turrets and if the mutas get close you attack; they're supporting the turret(s). | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
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Kong John
Denmark1020 Posts
Another thing is that you lack a basic understanding of when to push, you go 2rax but dont push. Your expo is late. He actually made a Hydra den after his lair was done and then after that made a spire and no lings before that. If you had just pushed with your first marines you would have won right there. | ||
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aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On February 16 2009 23:32 Piy wrote: don't listen to aupstar, most of what he says is wrong or irrelevant. Care to explain why? I don't mind constructive criticism, but just a lame one liner without an explination is quite rude. | ||
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SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
On February 17 2009 04:20 EsX_Raptor wrote: You need to understand that in TvZ Marines are support units: When sieging a zerg's nat you're actually using tanks and keeping the marines back to protect them; they're supporting the siege. When fighting mutalisks turrets have a larger range and thus hit the mutas before they get close, you use the marines to protect the turrets and if the mutas get close you attack; they're supporting the turret(s). I kinda have mixed feelings about this statement. What if you're doing an SK Terran and skipping tanks completely? Then MnM is your actual attack force, not support units. Same goes for turrets. Turrets are used to delay the mutalisks so that you can bring your rines to fend them off. Not the other way around. | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
On February 18 2009 03:12 SilverskY wrote: I kinda have mixed feelings about this statement. What if you're doing an SK Terran and skipping tanks completely? Then MnM is your actual attack force, not support units. Same goes for turrets. Turrets are used to delay the mutalisks so that you can bring your rines to fend them off. Not the other way around. When you go SK Terran marines are support units for your vessel. They keep them alive so you can mass a bunch of them and irradiate the crap out of the zerg. yeah you build turrets to delay the mutas while your rines get there and support them; in which case the mutas won't be able to do much damage. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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meathook
1289 Posts
On February 19 2009 02:03 EsX_Raptor wrote: When you go SK Terran marines are support units for your vessel. They keep them alive so you can mass a bunch of them and irradiate the crap out of the zerg. yeah you build turrets to delay the mutas while your rines get there and support them; in which case the mutas won't be able to do much damage. You are wrong. SK Terran build requires you to micro the MM firstly and the vessels secondly. Vessels are spellcasting units that help you deal with defilers/ultralisks/lurker, the marines are the ones who do the damage, allow you to keep the Z on his feet, harass expansions, etc not the vessels. And turrets don't kill the mutas (usually), the marines do. So there you have it - marines are not supporting units, they are the backbone of the terran army in tvz (unless playing mech, obviously) | ||
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ramen247
United States1256 Posts
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
turrets buy time for marines, they are not the attacking force if i feel i am facing a really good zerg i just make an extra bunker with 3-4 turrets, it works wonders, and requires no effort nobody plays SK terran passively, that's stupid and it's how you lose with it; sk terran is about aggression, not being contained, taking the fight to the zerg, keeping swarm in the middle getting 12 vessels is not autowin, nobody can even use 12 vessels except Nada and 450 apm perfect mechanic pros, guaranteed you're gonna fuck up and not use all your energy and get scourged out the ass and LOL at MM being support units, supporting tanks and vessels....do you even PLAY tvz? what the fuck advice is this? MM do ALL the damage in tvz. tanks are only good for opening a lurker contain or killing sunkens, unless you're 2-3 faccing and going super heavy tanks, in which case the MM are still not support units, just not the only damage dealers. you honestly think a group of 36 3/3 MM is "support" for your 6 vessels? vessels support MM by killing the only things that zerg has that can kill extremely well-microed MM....defilers and ultras | ||
Chill
Calgary25995 Posts
On February 16 2009 23:32 Piy wrote: don't listen to aupstar, most of what he says is wrong or irrelevant. Most of what he said looks solid to me here... | ||
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ramen247
United States1256 Posts
On February 19 2009 02:36 NoobsOfWrath wrote: 4 turrets aint shit to a good muta user, they will die without killing a single muta turrets buy time for marines, they are not the attacking force if i feel i am facing a really good zerg i just make an extra bunker with 3-4 turrets, it works wonders, and requires no effort nobody plays SK terran passively, that's stupid and it's how you lose with it; sk terran is about aggression, not being contained, taking the fight to the zerg, keeping swarm in the middle getting 12 vessels is not autowin, nobody can even use 12 vessels except Nada and 450 apm perfect mechanic pros, guaranteed you're gonna fuck up and not use all your energy and get scourged out the ass and LOL at MM being support units, supporting tanks and vessels....do you even PLAY tvz? what the fuck advice is this? MM do ALL the damage in tvz. tanks are only good for opening a lurker contain or killing sunkens, unless you're 2-3 faccing and going super heavy tanks, in which case the MM are still not support units, just not the only damage dealers. you honestly think a group of 36 3/3 MM is "support" for your 6 vessels? vessels support MM by killing the only things that zerg has that can kill extremely well-microed MM....defilers and ultras no, i dont think you are required to be extremely aggressive with SK to win. you can just run around killing stray units, dodging flanks, irradiating defilers, killing undefended bases with multiple drops, basically starve zerg to death. 12 vessels is pretty much autowin even if you get scourged after you at least irradiate one thing before you die. 12 irrads/12 matrixes are so powerful. by your same logic...a good muta user would rape marines the same as turrets... and if you go tank heavy, the tanks ARE the damage dealers... having 6 tanks fire all at once deals enough damage to make the marines only purpose to clean up weak units. | ||
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Not_Computer
Canada2277 Posts
On February 16 2009 22:42 aupstar wrote: Building excess turrets will hurt your economy a lot since your wasting mining time and another 100 minerals on static defense. I get my turrets for 75 minerals. Bargain!! Also, I forgot the reason why people (like the OP) always type "turrent" "turrents" or "turrentz" instead of turret/turrets. Do your torrents shoot missiles too? just poking some fun since aupstar's advice is relevant and useful. | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
On February 19 2009 02:53 ramen247 wrote: no, i dont think you are required to be extremely aggressive with SK to win. you can just run around killing stray units, dodging flanks, irradiating defilers, killing undefended bases with multiple drops, basically starve zerg to death. 12 vessels is pretty much autowin even if you get scourged after you at least irradiate one thing before you die. 12 irrads/12 matrixes are so powerful. by your same logic...a good muta user would rape marines the same as turrets... and if you go tank heavy, the tanks ARE the damage dealers... having 6 tanks fire all at once deals enough damage to make the marines only purpose to clean up weak units. lol, no. the MM are not there to "clean up weak units." You cannot sit around and turtle and "kill zerg bases with drops." Yea, right. the 6 tanks certainly deal damage. but what they mainly do is give you range on lurkers to micro back with the marines and separate lurkers from lings. I really have to question if you even play TvZ. Good luck going SK terran and NOT being aggressive. The entire point is to get out early and stay out. If you go SK terran and sit around you're going to get 12 lurkers on your choke, you'll have a few vessels, you'll be forced to get a tank or two, you'll be slowed as fuck, you will have to choose between dropships or vessels, it will be extremely hard to take a third, you wont be able to stop the zerg from expoing at all, he can easily afford 2-3 lurker at each base and 4-5 sunkens to stop anything but 6+ dropships full of units... and no, not by my logic would muta rape mm the same as turrets. what the fuck? turrets do almost no damage to mutas, and MM have stim + medics + full damage vs mutas. stop trying to troll me. unless you make 8+ turrets in the same place, a zerg with good micro will only be delayed by turrets. the turrets buy you time to bring a set of MM over. 12 marines + 3 medics will do more than 5 turrets to a set of 11 mutas. | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
if you have noticed, no terran ever moves out (except when trying to scare the zerg or rush) without a vessel or tank. let's just say m&m are like the water against a housefire, tanks are like the fire trucks, and vessel are the hoses. edit: you can affort to lose as much water as you want, but if you lose your truck or your hoses you're pretty much fked. you will also be fked if you run out of water, but that takes a while longer. | ||
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ramen247
United States1256 Posts
On February 19 2009 04:47 NoobsOfWrath wrote: lol, no. the MM are not there to "clean up weak units." You cannot sit around and turtle and "kill zerg bases with drops." Yea, right. the 6 tanks certainly deal damage. but what they mainly do is give you range on lurkers to micro back with the marines and separate lurkers from lings. I really have to question if you even play TvZ. Good luck going SK terran and NOT being aggressive. The entire point is to get out early and stay out. If you go SK terran and sit around you're going to get 12 lurkers on your choke, you'll have a few vessels, you'll be forced to get a tank or two, you'll be slowed as fuck, you will have to choose between dropships or vessels, it will be extremely hard to take a third, you wont be able to stop the zerg from expoing at all, he can easily afford 2-3 lurker at each base and 4-5 sunkens to stop anything but 6+ dropships full of units... and no, not by my logic would muta rape mm the same as turrets. what the fuck? turrets do almost no damage to mutas, and MM have stim + medics + full damage vs mutas. stop trying to troll me. unless you make 8+ turrets in the same place, a zerg with good micro will only be delayed by turrets. the turrets buy you time to bring a set of MM over. 12 marines + 3 medics will do more than 5 turrets to a set of 11 mutas. i never said being passive meant you just stayed in your choke... im saying, you are outside, but you arent actively trying to fight the zerg army. instead, you harass the zerg instead with your army and drops. i never said that i would just stay in my choke. | ||
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Odeur
Taiwan58 Posts
ultras - cliff T_T | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
On February 19 2009 05:15 EsX_Raptor wrote: try going sk terran without vessel and see how long you last. if you have noticed, no terran ever moves out (except when trying to scare the zerg or rush) without a vessel or tank. let's just say m&m are like the water against a housefire, tanks are like the fire trucks, and vessel are the hoses. edit: you can affort to lose as much water as you want, but if you lose your truck or your hoses you're pretty much fked. you will also be fked if you run out of water, but that takes a while longer. That's like saying hydras are support for the overlord when you're fighting dts....rofl Of course you can fuckin move out before vessel, you have 2 scanners. You wait for vessel to make it easier on yourself. Your 36 marines and 6 medics are not "supporting" your 1 vessel when you move out. 1 vessel aint gonna kill shit. Your 1 vessel is not gonna be out after his defilers. The vessel is to make shit easier on you so they can't delay you indefinitely with 1 lurker at a time. The MM are what actually kill things. This is seriously a stupid argument. Nowhere did I once say you don't need vessels. I said that MM are not "support" units. Stop twisting my words into your noob arguments. | ||
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SilverskY
Korea (South)3086 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On February 19 2009 02:40 Chill wrote: Most of what he said looks solid to me here... Well its not the best idea to rally fiebats to your ramp just in case, especially if youre still on 1 barracks. You have to make sure with a scout, and send it towards his lings to check for speed or various other tell tale moves depending on the zergs build. And the 'make turrets as he keeps sending mutas' can be badly misinterpreted, he doesnt mention at all how many do you need for the first mutas, or how many do you need as the numbers grow, which honestly, not a single terran keeps making turrets unless its to actually replace the lost ones, and zergs massing mutas to make adding turrets just to be safer, acceptable, are extremely rare. Oh and muta harass in a standard game will be over MUCH sooner than you will ever have a vessel with irradiate. Irradiate should also finish later than when you start your first push, so imagine the time you have to wait for it. | ||
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