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Alright. So I've been playing for a few months now, I'm progressing at a rate I'm comfortable with in contrast to the amount of time I'm practicing.
I'm having a problem in my Zerg vs Protoss area. Playing against a fast expanding P is pretty easy for me, at the D level at least. I demolish a lot of D level P players who just sit there and turtle after fast expanding. But lately I've been getting raped pretty hard by people doing 2gate builds. In fact, I lose like 80% of the games where I'm up against 2gate.
I always do 12hatch. Trying to get it down solid. I just don't know what to do when I 12 hatch and someone goes 2 gate.
And it's usually too late to switch my build order by the time I scout the 2gate. That's probably because I've started scouting on 12 instead of 9, but even when I go on 9 on some maps it's harder to get there in time.
So in the situation where I look and see "Oh, this guy's going 2gate"
And I've got my hatchery going up in my nat
And my spawning pool is almost done.
What should I do right when those first 6 lings pop out? I'm not sure what to do from there.
I tried laying a sunken or two in my nat, then blocking off the ramp, choke to my main with lings and shit but it doesn't always work so well.
I'm pretty lost as to what to do.
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Get a couple drones down to your nat asap and try to put down 2 sunks despite the harassing probe/zeal. Once you have those you're pretty safe and just have to adapt. Try to snipe the probe with your lings first then go for the zeals.
Don't take my word for it.
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On February 13 2009 16:02 onihunter wrote:
Get a couple drones down to your nat asap and try to put down 2 sunks despite the harassing probe/zeal. Once you have those you're pretty safe and just have to adapt. Try to snipe the probe with your lings first then go for the zeals.
Don't take my word for it.
I have done this but either end up getting overpowered with zealots, or they just run by into my main and give me a Protoss sized fisting I'll never forget.
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Well, you will notice that its a 2 gate even before you scout his base, if you see zeals running across the map because FE does not give P zealots that early. In that case, pull 2 drones from main asap and immediately build sunkens as creep finishes. You might also want to use those initial lings to distract his 2 zealots (try to surround 1, and as he pulls it back, try to surround the other, repeat to buy time)
Make sure he doesn't simply waltz up your ramp or else you're gonna need a hellulva drone micro to stop his pressure.
2 Gate is constant pressure, it can be very powerful if done by a good Protoss. Keep an ovie or ling near his ramp to see his zealot count as he moves out, and add sunkens accordingly. I would recommend playing on 2 base (main + nat) in early game unless you have confident ling micro.
To put it simply, defend his pressure, and quickly go lair -> mutas. If he did a powerful 2 gate pressure where he invested alot of minerals into zealots rather than tech, he should get pretty fucked by your mutas. Unlike FE build, 2 gate doesn't get forge very early so if he doesn't suspect mutas, its pretty much GG since he can't build cannons + archon. .
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It seems like you know how to respond, but the risk of going 12 hatch vs Protoss is that (besides probes being about to delay your hatch for a long time) 2gate is a lot more powerful vs it than 9pool/overpool. I would assume that since you're D level, the main reason you consistently lose to it is because your micro just isn't up to par (it is the same for me, I still have difficulties vs 2gate when the protoss executing it has decent zeal micro). Basically the only real solution is just practice practice practice your ling vs zeal micro i think (also don't take my word for it lol).
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Oh, and 6 lings + drone micro is good enough to kill the first two zealots easily
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It also sorta depends on the type of 2gate. If its a 10/12gate, you should be fine, just get a few sunkens up ASAP in your nat. If it was a 9/10gate... Thats sorta designed to kill a 12hatch, so micro your ass off, get sunkens as fast as you can, pump lings.
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Go to figherreplays.com
Click general
Look for my first bo5 against saddles.
Get.AttackZerg vs Saddles
games 1 , 2 and 4 are all 12hat vs 2gate. It is a systematic process. If you panic when you see zealots, you've already lost.
The concept behind beating a two gate, is that larva from 2 hats > 2 gates.
To make it simple to read.
Send 4 drones to expo when zealot is on his way, or if your scouting blows, when its there.
He can at max have 1 zealot + 2 probes even if he 9/9's at this point.
Delay zealot attacks on hatchery (You want it to be as high hp as possible) your pool (assuming your doing ur build correctly) should finish before your hatchery(barely)
Rally main hat to your natural. While lings are on the way your goal is to spread out all 4 drones and place two creeps. He Will Target One. As it begins to die, cancel - and make another.
Now you have 8 lings 1 sunken morphing 1 or 2 drones and 4 more lings on the way vs 3 zealots (for about 10 seconds) then 5. You want to make as few lings as possible , so you can place a third hat and power drone as soon as your safe.
Do not engage the zealots at anytime unless you have a positional advantage. Do Not forget that 2 zealots hits + 1 probe is a zealot kill, target probes when possible.
If 8 probes come + 1 zealots cancel hat and build (in this order) hatchery-gas-creep in your main.
Proper overlord placement, and path scouting on nearly all maps allows you to avoid complete surprise.
Watch savior vs any protoss on longinus or longinus 2. He had it down to such a science that sometimes all of the zealots would just leave his expo without inflicting any damage.
Killing the zealots isn't important. 3 hat speedling or 2 hat speedling is a crap counter to 2gate. Visualize where you are going to place sunkens before you need to, that way you can quickly execute the 3 drone split to get them morphing.
Losing those first 4 drones is game, you lose, losing both sunkens without another morphing is game.
Making all lings off 2 hats without speed is game. Building gas before third hat, even though tempting is often game.
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Why dont u use this new BO mondargon is doing as well. Get 11 pool with speed and then go for expand. you can also place a 3rd hatch on a mineral only expand. with this bo if the toss goes FE you can also try to sneak some lings into his main or if he goes 2 gate zealots you can probably mass speedling and kill him.
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On February 13 2009 17:13 ffswowsucks wrote:
Why dont u use this new BO mondargon is doing as well. Get 11 pool with speed and then go for expand. you can also place a 3rd hatch on a mineral only expand. with this bo if the toss goes FE you can also try to sneak some lings into his main or if he goes 2 gate zealots you can probably mass speedling and kill him.
9pool/overpool and 11pool are all inferior vs 2gate. If you do any of these on maps with ramps, you can easily get contained or out teched or anything else.
I mean fuck 2gate proxy 99 in the center of andro unscouted is possible to live threw ....
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I actually cream my pants when my opponent 2-gates. It's a free win. I just overpower the zealots and run into the P main to probe hunt
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On February 13 2009 15:52 Ronald_McD wrote:I always do 12hatch. Trying to get it down solid.
I don't know about other protoss players, but I always feel very comfortable, when zerg goes 12 hatch. I have so many options - even including canon rushing the hatch with two scouting probes (which is rare of course). The reason why I prefer zergs going 12 hatch, is that I feel very comfortable - no early aggresion can be expected, I can get away with 1 canon, I can focus super hard on economy and on getting to a certain point of tech and unit count very fast (e.g. zealot-archon-+1upg). In fact, I feel like I am the one getting much more solid.
What I want to tell, try 9 pool speed lings or overpool more often - these things put me (should be the same for other P players too) off balance - scouting is harder, more defence is required - this means - I am not comfortable - my BO execution is flawed - the risk of choosing wrong BO is higher.
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On February 13 2009 18:15 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:
I actually cream my pants when my opponent 2-gates. It's a free win. I just overpower the zealots and run into the P main to probe hunt
+1
just keep harassing the zeals that are htting the hatch, keep ling' and dont forget to tech up.
a sunken in your mineral line of your nat = freewin.
float your drones and attack, it reduces the zealots attack rate by at least 50%
playing 2x2 zerg, you will learn to do this, your literally always fighting a 2gate, with possibly a 9p too.. 2 sunks, and no expand, but the concept of beating zeals by floating your drones is still paramount
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On February 13 2009 17:33 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2009 17:13 ffswowsucks wrote:
Why dont u use this new BO mondargon is doing as well. Get 11 pool with speed and then go for expand. you can also place a 3rd hatch on a mineral only expand. with this bo if the toss goes FE you can also try to sneak some lings into his main or if he goes 2 gate zealots you can probably mass speedling and kill him. 9pool/overpool and 11pool are all inferior vs 2gate. If you do any of these on maps with ramps, you can easily get contained or out teched or anything else. I mean fuck 2gate proxy 99 in the center of andro unscouted is possible to live threw ....
[url blocked]
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You should be sending out a scout drone with your 12 hatch. When you see the 2 gate, instead of placing your normal 3rd hatch at 13. Pull 4 drones and start 2 creeps at your nat. P will attack one so morph them both while canceling the one thats attacked before it finishes. With your first 2 hatchs make 8 lings. And on wide open maps consider how many probes hes commited and how wide open your ramp. If its on a map where they can easily run by considering making a creep in your main. Your drone should either be alive or an overlord should be in his base by now. If hes continuing with the zeals you need another sunk and keep making lings. If hes keeping the zeals back at his ramp and getting gas , add to your drone count and plan on catching up your sunk count to match his zeal count pretty soon. Basically if hes pressing with a hardcore zeal rush. Add another sunk and make non stop lings. Keep adding sunks as needed and ONLY ENGAGE HIS ZEALS WITH YOUR LINGS IF HE MOVES FOR YOUR SUNKS. DO NOT WASTE YOUR LINGS.
But ya as attack zerg mentioned. Once you have your base sunks in place to prevent early drone kills its easy to just make non stop lings from 2 hatches and quickly outnumber his pressuring zeals while you tech to mutas. Because youll be able to get more lings from your 2 hatches than he will from his 2 gates and you can get tech while doing it. From there you take a 3rd base and prepare either mass hydras or lurk contain/defense depending on what your mutas see.
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On February 13 2009 16:12 Ideas wrote:
It seems like you know how to respond, but the risk of going 12 hatch vs Protoss is that (besides probes being about to delay your hatch for a long time) 2gate is a lot more powerful vs it than 9pool/overpool. I would assume that since you're D level, the main reason you consistently lose to it is because your micro just isn't up to par (it is the same for me, I still have difficulties vs 2gate when the protoss executing it has decent zeal micro). Basically the only real solution is just practice practice practice your ling vs zeal micro i think (also don't take my word for it lol).
No 12 Hatch counters 2 gate much better than 9 pool. As a protoss player when my opponent 9 pools and im 2 gating I can simply wall of his ramp, forcing him to play 1 base. All you need to do is start to morph 1 sunken. Build 2 if he is A) Pulling probes B) Proxy 2 gate.
Then, simply make sure he doesnt get drone kills and pump lings. He will be forced to stay on your ramp, if he enters your main or natural you can simply surround, and because of the additional hatch and because its on the other side of your ramp is the reason why 12 hatch counters 2 gate so well. When you have enough ligns simply attack his zealots from both sides and maynard a few drones, and you should have a huge eco lead.
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On February 13 2009 16:12 Ideas wrote:
It seems like you know how to respond, but the risk of going 12 hatch vs Protoss is that (besides probes being about to delay your hatch for a long time) 2gate is a lot more powerful vs it than 9pool/overpool. I would assume that since you're D level, the main reason you consistently lose to it is because your micro just isn't up to par (it is the same for me, I still have difficulties vs 2gate when the protoss executing it has decent zeal micro). Basically the only real solution is just practice practice practice your ling vs zeal micro i think (also don't take my word for it lol).
Actually I think its harder to play 2 gate when opening with over 9 than with 12 hatch. 12 hatch puts the pressure on the p to do damage early with zeals, which you can outplay. If they 2 gate against over 9 they just put 3 zeals on ramp and get a quick gas and tech sair or archon and starting their nat. They can make you make lings/sunks early with just the pressence of the 2 gate but in fact just tech fast and catch up to you in midgame.
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United States43545 Posts
On September 11 2007 05:18 Kwark wrote:
It's a micro issue in my opinion. The pivotal time (if you 12 hatch 11 pool) is when your first 8 lings hatch (you must save larva as pool completes). He'll have 1 zee, 2 probes and 2 zee almost there. You want to make 8 lings and start 2 creeps.
DO NOT ENGAGE
In a straight fight 3 zee 2 probe will rape your lings. Pure and simple. If you engage him he'll kill your lings and then kill the morphing sunks and you'll lose your nat. This is bad. However, if you don't engage then he'll kill the sunks. It's a thin line. Basically what you need to do is run round in circles with your lings staying near the morphing sunks but not engaging. If he commits to a sunk flank him. He won't be able to micro and his zees will lose and they'll be wasting attacks on the creep colony. If he doesn't commit you just wait for the sunk to finish. If he tries to run through you laugh as he's now in your main with 3 zee vs 10 or so ling (constant production) with his reinforcements cut off by sunks. Just dance your lings around near the morphing sunks and wait for him to commit. Let him chase your lings around, time is on your side. The only time you actually want to fight him is if he goes for the sunks in which case you can get a surround and slaughter him.
Search function is your friend.
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12 hatch, 11 pool, make 3 more drones then mass lings, put 2 sunkens down at nat if you can, just keep pumping lings.
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And make sure not to overreact with sunkens against 10/12. You can defend that easily with just lings.
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I dont think 9 pool is weak vs 2 gate, its just key to have your first 6 zerglings out of your main. Though many zergs use them to defend the drones and thats imo, a bad move.
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Thanks a fuck load guys.
I was a bit hesitant for posting for help first
Because a lot of idiot noobs get bashed when they do lol
But yeah, you guys helped me with a few details
I see where I was going wrong
Thanks a bunch guys, I'll go try this out.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On February 14 2009 00:27 Cloud wrote:
I dont think 9 pool is weak vs 2 gate, its just key to have your first 6 zerglings out of your main. Though many zergs use them to defend the drones and thats imo, a bad move.
yeah i would have thought that 9pool would get lings way out of the main way before 2gate zeals arrive at ur nat / ramp !?" o_O
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On February 13 2009 20:05 ffswowsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2009 17:33 AttackZerg wrote:On February 13 2009 17:13 ffswowsucks wrote:
Why dont u use this new BO mondargon is doing as well. Get 11 pool with speed and then go for expand. you can also place a 3rd hatch on a mineral only expand. with this bo if the toss goes FE you can also try to sneak some lings into his main or if he goes 2 gate zealots you can probably mass speedling and kill him. 9pool/overpool and 11pool are all inferior vs 2gate. If you do any of these on maps with ramps, you can easily get contained or out teched or anything else. I mean fuck 2gate proxy 99 in the center of andro unscouted is possible to live threw .... [url blocked]
That replay is not relevant at all. It's a pool-first build not a 12-hatch build.
EDIT: Oh, I guess you were responding to ffswowsucks' comment. I was expecting a 12-hatch build.
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It's all about micro. Also your drone needs to start the hatchery ASAP (i.e. he shouldn't get to the nat when you already have 350 minerals), so the creep comes up as early as it can, allowing you to get the sunkens down more effectively.
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On February 13 2009 20:05 ffswowsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2009 17:33 AttackZerg wrote:On February 13 2009 17:13 ffswowsucks wrote:
Why dont u use this new BO mondargon is doing as well. Get 11 pool with speed and then go for expand. you can also place a 3rd hatch on a mineral only expand. with this bo if the toss goes FE you can also try to sneak some lings into his main or if he goes 2 gate zealots you can probably mass speedling and kill him. 9pool/overpool and 11pool are all inferior vs 2gate. If you do any of these on maps with ramps, you can easily get contained or out teched or anything else. I mean fuck 2gate proxy 99 in the center of andro unscouted is possible to live threw .... [url blocked]
Why are you giving me replays of satanik. He is my clanmate I have his entire auto-replay folder!
I've already seen this game.
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On February 14 2009 14:50 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2009 20:05 ffswowsucks wrote:On February 13 2009 17:33 AttackZerg wrote:On February 13 2009 17:13 ffswowsucks wrote:
Why dont u use this new BO mondargon is doing as well. Get 11 pool with speed and then go for expand. you can also place a 3rd hatch on a mineral only expand. with this bo if the toss goes FE you can also try to sneak some lings into his main or if he goes 2 gate zealots you can probably mass speedling and kill him. 9pool/overpool and 11pool are all inferior vs 2gate. If you do any of these on maps with ramps, you can easily get contained or out teched or anything else. I mean fuck 2gate proxy 99 in the center of andro unscouted is possible to live threw .... [url blocked] Why are you giving me replays of satanik. He is my clanmate I have his entire auto-replay folder! I've already seen this game.
because u said that 9pool/overpool and 11pool is inferior vs 2gate when there is already games that even a 6pool can pull some serious damage to a toss player.
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On February 14 2009 17:48 ffswowsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2009 14:50 AttackZerg wrote:On February 13 2009 20:05 ffswowsucks wrote:On February 13 2009 17:33 AttackZerg wrote:On February 13 2009 17:13 ffswowsucks wrote:
Why dont u use this new BO mondargon is doing as well. Get 11 pool with speed and then go for expand. you can also place a 3rd hatch on a mineral only expand. with this bo if the toss goes FE you can also try to sneak some lings into his main or if he goes 2 gate zealots you can probably mass speedling and kill him. 9pool/overpool and 11pool are all inferior vs 2gate. If you do any of these on maps with ramps, you can easily get contained or out teched or anything else. I mean fuck 2gate proxy 99 in the center of andro unscouted is possible to live threw .... [url blocked] Why are you giving me replays of satanik. He is my clanmate I have his entire auto-replay folder! I've already seen this game. because u said that 9pool/overpool and 11pool is inferior vs 2gate when there is already games that even a 6pool can pull some serious damage to a toss player.
umm Showing me a random replay of non-pro gamers proves that 9pool/overpool aren't inferior.
They are inferior. 11pool is fucking garbage actually on all but maybe 2 maps.
Just because they are worse doesn't make it impossible to win or even win easily they are just inferior.
Why would zergs ever 12hat unless it was a superior build? ..... overpool is the only other economic friendly option while everything else is inferior in relation to all opening variables.
And no shit that a 6pool or more correctly a 5pool can do damage to ANY toss build its called a RUSH.
=(
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On February 14 2009 00:27 Cloud wrote:
I dont think 9 pool is weak vs 2 gate, its just key to have your first 6 zerglings out of your main. Though many zergs use them to defend the drones and thats imo, a bad move.
Do you mean 9pool or 9pool speed.
9pool with extractor trick and I would agree.
9poolspeed I would highly disagree on any map with a ramp.
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I more likely like 9pool with extractor trick then start getting exp.
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On February 14 2009 17:56 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2009 00:27 Cloud wrote:
I dont think 9 pool is weak vs 2 gate, its just key to have your first 6 zerglings out of your main. Though many zergs use them to defend the drones and thats imo, a bad move. Do you mean 9pool or 9pool speed. 9pool with extractor trick and I would agree. 9poolspeed I would highly disagree on any map with a ramp.
9 pool speed beats the shit out of a proxy 2 gate, if you play it as you should.
9 pool speed is still a decent (oldschool) opening vs 2 gate, as i said, keep your 6 lings outside your main.
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On February 13 2009 21:01 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 05:18 Kwark wrote:
It's a micro issue in my opinion. The pivotal time (if you 12 hatch 11 pool) is when your first 8 lings hatch (you must save larva as pool completes). He'll have 1 zee, 2 probes and 2 zee almost there. You want to make 8 lings and start 2 creeps.
DO NOT ENGAGE
In a straight fight 3 zee 2 probe will rape your lings. Pure and simple. If you engage him he'll kill your lings and then kill the morphing sunks and you'll lose your nat. This is bad. However, if you don't engage then he'll kill the sunks. It's a thin line. Basically what you need to do is run round in circles with your lings staying near the morphing sunks but not engaging. If he commits to a sunk flank him. He won't be able to micro and his zees will lose and they'll be wasting attacks on the creep colony. If he doesn't commit you just wait for the sunk to finish. If he tries to run through you laugh as he's now in your main with 3 zee vs 10 or so ling (constant production) with his reinforcements cut off by sunks. Just dance your lings around near the morphing sunks and wait for him to commit. Let him chase your lings around, time is on your side. The only time you actually want to fight him is if he goes for the sunks in which case you can get a surround and slaughter him. Search function is your friend.
Haha, way to quote yourself. But honestly, what Kwark is saying is correct. Lings < zealots + probes, unless you overwhelm him completely. Don't engage, but just stall. Your macro will be able to outnumber him, you just need enough time.
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EPT
