EPT! [G] Stylish's FPVods [06-10 Update] - Page 73
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ZavikZyke
United States382 Posts
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ShiaNekoChan
United States13 Posts
Every time I use one of your TvZ builds, by the time I push, the zerg just masses sunken colonies so I can't actually get in his base. Every time. To date, every time I've played against the zerg in 2 different build orders and pushing times, by time I get there (the map is destination 1.1 by the way) they just massed sunken colonies so it's impossible to cross their bridges and cause any damage. It's starting to get frustrating. What would you do to fix this? | ||
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Emperor_Earth
United States824 Posts
On August 20 2010 08:17 ShiaNekoChan wrote: Stylish, please guide me in the right direction because I just can't seem to win a single game. Every time I use one of your TvZ builds, by the time I push, the zerg just masses sunken colonies so I can't actually get in his base. Every time. To date, every time I've played against the zerg in 2 different build orders and pushing times, by time I get there (the map is destination 1.1 by the way) they just massed sunken colonies so it's impossible to cross their bridges and cause any damage. It's starting to get frustrating. What would you do to fix this? @ShiaNekoChan Re: Mass Sunken It's a matter of how you view those sunken. You can see it as a hard counter to a frontal assault to mass bio Or you can see it as a 175 money sink per sunken, essentially meaning that if he makes two sunkens, you can get an expansion for free pretty safely. Or safely tech to dropships. Or sieged tanks. Essentially approach the game as an RoI analysis. What's his return on his investment of 1 larvae + 175 minerals? A strong static defense that targets ground only, handles light units pretty well, outranges all but siege tanks, and heals slowly. Notice that it's static. That means that if you drop in his main, his sunkens are worthless. If he takes a third, his sunkens are worthless. If you can sneak a few vultures safely by, his sunkens are worthless. If you shoot either out of range or from the air, his sunkens are worthless. His 175 min + 1 larvae investment only pays for itself if you a-move your bio into it without careful consideration. Also, rules of thumbs for attacking sunkens with bio. 1 medic per sunken per 6 (marine + firebat x2 combined) to attack. Stim your units if you have it, then wait a second, then move medics in to take the first salvo then marines focus firing the sunkens. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On August 20 2010 08:17 ShiaNekoChan wrote: Stylish, please guide me in the right direction because I just can't seem to win a single game. Every time I use one of your TvZ builds, by the time I push, the zerg just masses sunken colonies so I can't actually get in his base. Every time. To date, every time I've played against the zerg in 2 different build orders and pushing times, by time I get there (the map is destination 1.1 by the way) they just massed sunken colonies so it's impossible to cross their bridges and cause any damage. It's starting to get frustrating. What would you do to fix this? Which builds in particular are failing for you, and can you post a replay? Some of his builds require that you deny scouting. | ||
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ShiaNekoChan
United States13 Posts
On August 20 2010 13:38 mmp wrote: Which builds in particular are failing for you, and can you post a replay? Some of his builds require that you deny scouting. A-Yu-Mi and the Flash build. I'd post a replay, but I'm too discouraged to play it right now. :/ I switched to A-Yu-Mi to get a faster push, but it still has the same problem. Sometimes, I can't even leave my base because a lot of the time, they somehow get mutalisks before I leave. I haven't even mentioned zergs that just rush zerglings in quickly and kill either build or the fact that most games just degenerate into them just throwing in zerglings and mutalisks to kill my marine army while teching into guardians. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On August 21 2010 02:31 ShiaNekoChan wrote: A-Yu-Mi and the Flash build. I'd post a replay, but I'm too discouraged to play it right now. :/ I switched to A-Yu-Mi to get a faster push, but it still has the same problem. Sometimes, I can't even leave my base because a lot of the time, they somehow get mutalisks before I leave. I haven't even mentioned zergs that just rush zerglings in quickly and kill either build or the fact that most games just degenerate into them just throwing in zerglings and mutalisks to kill my marine army while teching into guardians. Well the A-Yu-Mi build is kinda cheesy, and massing sunkens is the perfect response to it so yea...try something more standard than an all in sunken break. That or maybe you don't hide it very well (as in reveal your marine count too early). Either way its just one of those "either you win with the attack or you don't" kinda builds, so definitely not good for getting better. As for the Flash build, if your opponent is making a massive wall of sunkens then the build has done its job beautifully. The whole point of the build is to pressure the zerg, force sunkens, and deny his 3rd. Gotta understand that, and the fact thats its not a build thats supposed to kill them outright. Just pressure them, limit their economy, and have map control (watch flash vs jaedong on fighting spirit, its when he first debuted the build, and it worked wonderfully). Maybe you're trying to brute force it too much? What to do after the Flash build opening? Well the zerg invested in god knows how many sunken colonies. Woot! Just play normally: macro, expand, upgrade, and move your army around the map, gaining map control, limiting his bases, and irradiating shit. Post replay please tho, it'll be more helpful | ||
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ShiaNekoChan
United States13 Posts
Had to push extremely slowly because he already had lurkers camping outside of my base, he had scourge especially for my science vessels and teched to ultralisks. :| http://rapidshare.com/files/414151974/Every_freaking_time.rep edit: I cant seem to get my marines to understand that running to your death when you've been hit once by a lurker isn't beneficial to anything.  just watched the replay, I was ready to push in 10 minutes, just like the merz fpvod. | ||
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Holyknight_127
United States82 Posts
On August 21 2010 07:35 ShiaNekoChan wrote: flash build on this one, since you told me to go with the more standard build this time. Had to push extremely slowly because he already had lurkers camping outside of my base, he had scourge especially for my science vessels and teched to ultralisks. :| http://rapidshare.com/files/414151974/Every_freaking_time.rep edit: I cant seem to get my marines to understand that running to your death when you've been hit once by a lurker isn't beneficial to anything. just watched the replay, I was ready to push in 10 minutes, just like the merz fpvod. You have to macro alot harder. Rax and cc should be lit up at all times. Add more rax and expand when you're minerals get too high. 2 base can support 2 starports and 6 rax if you macro properly Had you gotten stim, range, and medics earlier, you could've went out and punished him for having his 3rd up when his lurks weren't even there. It's always safe to quickly push out before lurks morph in any lurker opening. Just be careful of backstabs. Don't lose that first vessel! Near the end, he simply outmacro'd you since you did no damage whatsoever. Speaking of the Flash build, it requires 3 rax before you make the factory. Why the third rax? For the SWAT team early pressure. You went 2 rax fact, which makes it much easier for the zerg to get his 3rd up. If you're going to push at 10 minutes, you might as well do stylish's 9 minute push. I found that it's way stronger due to the fact that it's able to come out with 3-4 tanks before hive even finishes. Pushing out that early when Z has mutas is also APM eating. I don't recommend it until your handspeed increases. You're better off staying in your base and coming out hard. Clean your play. For the most part, you were stuck at your nat. Get down your timings and stay aggressive (if you can). Zerg shall not breathe! | ||
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ShiaNekoChan
United States13 Posts
When do you feel is the best time to expand? edit: oh, also, what's the best way to micro against lurkers using science vessels, tanks, and marines? You saw during the replay, I'm very slow at that. I'm thinking there must be a better way to do it? | ||
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Holyknight_127
United States82 Posts
On August 21 2010 17:13 ShiaNekoChan wrote: huh... well, I was able to use your tips to beat a few (pretty bad) zerg, so at least that got me out of the losing streak. the better one I ended up out macroing, although I still need work on that. When do you feel is the best time to expand? edit: oh, also, what's the best way to micro against lurkers using science vessels, tanks, and marines? You saw during the replay, I'm very slow at that. I'm thinking there must be a better way to do it? You want to get your 3rd sometime during your 1st push because at that point you have map control. When you pressure the Z it makes it hard for him to split his forces and attention to attack your expo. You can also use mines. As for micro, it is really situational. Based on the replay I watched, you pushed very slowly and wasted too many scans. After the lurks retreat, unsiege and siege again to keep sending the zerg back and gain some ground. Scout with scvs in key areas to avoid flanks. If you sense a battle, siege tanks asap, stim everything, and attack move perpendicular to his army. Watch some tvz fpvods on youtube. | ||
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MDr4z0r
Moldova6 Posts
http://rapidshare.com/files/416610444/LastReplay.rep | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27151 Posts
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MDr4z0r
Moldova6 Posts
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Never.Die
Japan189 Posts
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SupremeJD
United States42 Posts
I play SC2, but have recently started playing BW at work. I'm a high plat Terran/Toss player in SC2, but that doesn't really mean shit. I'm completely lost in BW, so if anyone could help me out, that'd be great. | ||
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Azerbaijan
United States660 Posts
In addition to checking the older BW Day9 Dailies you should listen to his podcasts. They can be found here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89581 | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
My premium account is useless. >< | ||
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MDr4z0r
Moldova6 Posts
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ZeKk
Sweden320 Posts
On September 02 2010 20:05 MDr4z0r wrote: Well, all i see is that i should have build some bunkers for the lings and forgot to put 2 scvs on gas for a while and that slowed a bit my medics but i think there is a lot more i don't see It's all the little things. This build requiers very accurate timing and good mechanics to pull off. When I'd watch your replay I can see that you lack all that things, your timing attack is roughly one minute later than it should be. Download stylish latest replay package, he got some games where he does this build. I recommend for you to watch the games vs "tosky" and "paranoid" game #2 to get a good grip what that's you need to do. The key things to watch for(other than that the zerg does a 3 hatch build which you propably know already) when he put down the rax's, when he transfer scv's, when he builds gas, when he put down academy, when he cuts scv's to maximize he's economy and especially watch how he position he's unit in he's base and how he use them when he sunken breaks. Compare the timnigs and do it yourself against the computer and compare the timings, once u feel comfortable with it you could try it against real enemys. p.s I recommend you to train a more standard solid build than this cheesy one, this one is for winning quick games, not so much to actually learn the MU. Stylish does this alot more often as you can see in he's replays. | ||
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MDr4z0r
Moldova6 Posts
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