Note: I did not put in the 'proper' bracket thing simply because im not sure what this would be defined as. Perhaps theory crafting? I don't know.
Anyways. Starcraft is a constantly changing game. A few years ago, 3 hatch lurker was the strategy. Now its muta. It seems- to me at least- to be the optimum standard opener against Terran possible. I really don't see what build could possibly be more efficient unless the maps drastically changed. However, if mech builds become more popular [ala fantasy] or 3 hatch muta simply becomes less effective [which is generally true, it is less effective compared to a year or more ago] its possible we could see its extinction as a standard opener.
So:
1) Has anyone thought of any build orders that, in theory, could become a standard opener in zvt?
2) Do you honestly think 3 hatch muta will die and be replaced, or that we have reached the end of starcraft evolution in this particular facet of the game?
Even IF it is the best openeing in ZvT. It will often be better to choose another opening, if the terrans are just used to coping with the muta build and thus wont expect any other builds.
And maybe new terran builds will change things again and so on..
There's been a lot of 2 hatch variations coming back in recent progames/replays. 2 hatch muta/2 hatch lurker being the most common (thezerg did it early in OSL i think? on byzantium). So it's already changing and it has been for at least the past season.
Not only just 2 hatch Muta, a lot of progamers have been trying to go 2 hatch muta directly into Hive play, like Ultras or Defilers. I don't know why, they just chose not to take a third and go straight to Hive. But they've been able to hold Terran in their base with their muta harass so I guess it works out.
Yeah, the game is gradually shifting away from 3 hatch muta because progamers are simply getting so good at defending it. ZvT in general has been a lot more hungry and aggressive recently because T mechanics are just getting far too good.
If the current map idiom would change you might see a lot more viable things. But 9 mineral mains with safe uncliffable 7-9 mineral+gas nat means the game gets boiled down to "best standard" and builds that do well against the counter or equal to the standard.
Also the top level of starcraft players right now are everything but creative. Dont give a fuck if any1 blasts me for this but a lot of these kids only have a few years of experience playing cookie cutter styles on standard maps. Simply dont even understand some of the possibilites. Like all this fast wraith/mech shit lately. lol learn to go hydras with no lair kids.
I 100% agree with venom on this one...all of these new young players who have been only playing for 2-3 years, are just like little drones, that do whatever there coach tells them to.
On October 19 2008 18:09 Salorian wrote: I 100% agree with venom on this one...all of these new young players who have been only playing for 2-3 years, are just like little drones, that do whatever there coach tells them to.
Thats the thing though, these players have been playing for at least 6-7 years with about 4-3 years progaming experience
3 hat mutas is dying off. I'm not sure about any NEW shit coming out of ZvT/TvZ, but the game will continue to change...as one strat becomes dominant and popular, the other race will find a way to defend it and change/adapt...as a result, the other one will have to adapt to that.
It's clearly evident in top level zergs going back to 2 hat BOs and even skipping mutas in their openings and going straight to lurker.
I use lurker as my standard opening. Terrans are very good against mutalisk these days so toI go for fast 3 gas lurker and use it kinda like you would mutalisk to slow down their push and try and get a good attack when they are unseiged, then tech to defiler and attack with defiler lurker. Rather than going lurker and doing it as an all in push. It is possible I think we could see a new standard for ZvT imo.
I like 2 hatch muta a lot, if you have a really really good multitask and harass, you can contain terran pretty good and fast tech or try to slowly catch up eco while teching.. I love that one yarnc build I think is like 11 or 12 pool into two hatch muta with early lings to put pressure in the terran fe'ing and also deny scouting
On October 19 2008 17:59 red.venom wrote: If the current map idiom would change you might see a lot more viable things. But 9 mineral mains with safe uncliffable 7-9 mineral+gas nat means the game gets boiled down to "best standard" and builds that do well against the counter or equal to the standard.
Also the top level of starcraft players right now are everything but creative. Dont give a fuck if any1 blasts me for this but a lot of these kids only have a few years of experience playing cookie cutter styles on standard maps. Simply dont even understand some of the possibilites. Like all this fast wraith/mech shit lately. lol learn to go hydras with no lair kids.
Cliffable nats generally imbalance the game. And your example of why you are oh sooo smart and the progamers so stupid is just lol
GGplay lost that game _because_ he went hydras before lair. And if your are talking about various plasma games that's just.... good luck playing mass tier 1 ground vs wraith into expand + mass tanks on plasma rofl.
As for the OP 3 hat muta has been standard sine when; 2004-5? I don't remember. If you made this thread in 2006 I would have given you a point since savior when dominating NEVER did anything but 3 hat muta. But now when the leading zvt players (jaedong, lux, GGplay?) constantly switch things up I don't really understand. I mean the last year we have seen soo many 2 hat muta games that it's hard to count. Not just one single variation either, but both drone heavy, ling heavy, fast 3 hat at other main and allins have been used. Not only that but the last months we have seen both 3 hat lurks and 2 hat lurks as well.
it seems like terran players are dominating, i remember when terran was considered the weakest race of the 3 until boxer made his innovative plays. damn i wish i could go back in time and pwn all the progamers
agree if you got really good muta micro you can really push a advantage out of 2 hatch muta. If your muta micro is like any of the top foreingers or worse I think 3 hatch play is better =/.
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote: I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote: I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days..
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote: I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days..
No apm discussion please, and what idra says is 100% true,ive seen D- Koreans with muta micro that made me think they were a hell of a lot better until i checked the stats
You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O
On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote: You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O
did u read his post? he said u can learn progamer muta micro by sitting down on a muta micro map for 2 days... and u dont need 300 apm for terrific muta micro alone, but u need a lot of apm and multitasking for terrific muta micro + flawless base management at the same time
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote: I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days..
How does Idra stating something relevant to the thread based on his experience makes him ignorant? You're making irrelevant assertions. And being a prick while you're at it.
If you talk about 'muta micro' as an isolated part of the game, I'm pretty sure 100+ apm is perfectly fine just for it alone.
BUT, by saying progamer muta micro, I think damenmofa means the abilty to micro your muta very well and, in adition, actually do something in your base at the same time.
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote: I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days..
How the fuck is he ignorant? Just because he owned you doesn't mean he's BM. You're an asshole. And you doesnt need like 300 apm to perfect muta micro, rather 100? He's the progamer, and I know too that progamers practice on micro maps to get better micro sometimes. Get your facts straight.
Back on thread topic, I'd say that 3 hatch muta is still viable however it's position as the ''standard'' ZvT build is in danger because of the recent vult drop to valk+mech build.
We will have to wait and watch out how things evolve and how 3 hatch mutas can adjust to it.
I find that 3 hatch lurkers gets the lurkers out too slow to pose a threat to the terran. If he scouts you right, he'll bunker up and should have vessals and tanks soon enough. 2 hatch lurkers give you the aggressive speed to actually break the nat before the terran can defend it properly, assuming everything goes alright.
In general I find that lurker builds don't really work too well because they get deflected easily if the terran scouts it, and terran can then easily force the lurkers to retreat. It's a personal bias though; I've always felt more comfortable using mutalisks than lurkers.
edit: The 3 hatch muta build became "solved" by terrans before any of the mech build stuff.
On October 20 2008 01:53 koreasilver wrote: I find that 3 hatch lurkers gets the lurkers out too slow to pose a threat to the terran. If he scouts you right, he'll bunker up and should have vessals and tanks soon enough. 2 hatch lurkers give you the aggressive speed to actually break the nat before the terran can defend it properly, assuming everything goes alright.
In general I find that lurker builds don't really work too well because they get deflected easily if the terran scouts it, and terran can then easily force the lurkers to retreat. It's a personal bias though; I've always felt more comfortable using mutalisks than lurkers.
edit: The 3 hatch muta build became "solved" by terrans before any of the mech build stuff.
i don't think 2 hatch lurkers lets you break the terran natural at all, they will scout it with scan early enough and they will have a bunker or two up and you cannot break that with 2 base lurker ling. what it does let you do though is defend your third better and lets you build to a critical mass of lurkers (an amount that can't be killed by MM) much quicker
On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote: You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O
Sure you see some 2 hatch lurk play or 2 hatch muta but i think in general 3hatch muta is still far and away the standard zvt build, and I don't think it's going away soon unless T strategy changes.
Obviously we're talking about Koreans, since foreigner play emulates professional play, and obviously every Korea has progamer Mutalisk micro. We are seeing a swing from standard 3 Hatch play to 2 Hatch and Kwanro openings. I'm saying in the hands of a perfect player, 2 Hatch is a fundamentally better opening; so as players improve the push should be towards 2 Hatch.
What is the 2 hatch lurker build order? Same as 3 hatch but ignoring hatch on 13/14? I would appreciate if anyone could think of a game recently with 2 hatch lurker, that wasn't an all in. I know thezerg/luxury tried it on ROTK this osl, but they did it with the intent of breaking the terrans natural, not playing to the late game.
On October 20 2008 02:40 Chill wrote: Stop derailing this shit.
Obviously we're talking about Koreans, since foreigner play emulates professional play, and obviously every Korea has progamer Mutalisk micro. We are seeing a swing from standard 3 Hatch play to 2 Hatch and Kwanro openings. I'm saying in the hands of a perfect player, 2 Hatch is a fundamentally better opening; so as players improve the push should be towards 2 Hatch.
yeah if were talking about koreans and a "perfect player" (lol), 2 hatch muta is the better build. Unfortunately you will still lose against a "perfect player" playing T, cus he will anticipate your muta movements and build enough static defense just in time... For foreigners, the very large majority will still fare better with 3 hatch muta, or do you play 2 hat muta more often than 3 hat muta nowadays chill? also that zoler guy annoys me, running around calling people names isnt exactly what id expect from a tl.net poster, and on top of that every post he makes just screams low level player 8[ 100 apm for muta micro maybe, but not for muta micro and flawless base management dude t.t
On October 20 2008 02:50 damenmofa wrote: also that zoler guy annoys me, running around calling people names isnt exactly what id expect from a tl.net poster, and on top of that every post he makes just screams low level player 8[ 100 apm for muta micro maybe, but not for muta micro and flawless base management dude t.t
Because clearly BMing other posters is relevant to the thread. You're the one who started this by calling the one who's actually in Korea playing with progamers on a regular basis ignorant on a subject relevant to progamers.
IMO this will just be a cycle. Prior to 3-Hatch Muta's introduction as standard play, 2-Hatch play was standard. As more players come to expect 3-Hatch Muta, and prepare for it, 2-Hatch play will become more standard. As that becomes standard, people will expect it, and people will play 3-Hatch again to trip up their opponents.
In theory, we could see 1-Hatch play in the cycle, but that's just crazy (unless you're LastRomantic ).
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote: I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
Do you have any micro maps in particular that you would recommend for single player?
On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote: You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O
On October 20 2008 04:04 Chill wrote: European isn't a race.
Typically European is taken as White, just as "African american" is taken as black. Obviously its not very accurate, as there are many non whites in Europe, and many non blacks in Africa, but hey.
It's obviously not racist though...Idra said European countries are pretty poor at starcraft, and since then a few Europeans have actually taken offense to it and have been hostile to Idra, despite it being a joke.
I think muta oriented builds will have to evolve soon though, seeing that now interesting BO's including Valkyries seem to be coming around the corner.
The key to successful pro lurker openings seems to be hatching the lurks outside of main. Progamers seem to mostly think of 2 hatch play as cheese. I haven't seen that much signs yet that it will become a long game strat.
2 hatch muta is def. better than 3 hatch muta imo, just as long as you put your third hatch in an expo and you can micro well. ESPECIALLY bcause terrans are using unconventional tactics, where it works well against 3 hatch mutas. i really don't think zergs will change that much tho, if anything they will learn to sacrifice an overlord more to the terran's base to see wats going on.
On October 20 2008 04:04 Chill wrote: European isn't a race.
Typically European is taken as White, just as "African american" is taken as black. Obviously its not very accurate, as there are many non whites in Europe, and many non blacks in Africa, but hey.
It's obviously not racist though...Idra said European countries are pretty poor at starcraft, and since then a few Europeans have actually taken offense to it and have been hostile to Idra, despite it being a joke.
Just because someone thinks something is a joke doesnt mean everyone does that.
On October 20 2008 04:04 Chill wrote: European isn't a race.
Typically European is taken as White, just as "African american" is taken as black. Obviously its not very accurate, as there are many non whites in Europe, and many non blacks in Africa, but hey.
It's obviously not racist though...Idra said European countries are pretty poor at starcraft, and since then a few Europeans have actually taken offense to it and have been hostile to Idra, despite it being a joke.
Just because someone thinks something is a joke doesnt mean everyone does that.
This might be irreleveant abit. I remember listening to the korean commentaries for some games proleague or gom i think it was flash vs pooh destination or maybe it was sea.really vs type.b. They were talking about how before zerg used to complain about how terrans would do really greedy builds like 1 rax no marine or 1 marine double command while the zerg couldnt do anything to stop it. Then zerg started using the gas first 2 hatch muta and started destroying terrans like flash vs jaedong. To adapt to this terrans started doing more unconvential openings like vulture into wrath and now zergs are saying that they had it better when terrans just used 1 rax greedy builds.
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote: I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
Do you have any micro maps in particular that you would recommend for single player?
i dunno the ones ive played all have korean names and i dont have them on this computer, sorry.
On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote: You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O
Two things made him bring this up.
1. He's european.
Leave TL if you gonna be racist
what the fuck? He's saying that Idra has been known to have bad relations with europeans as he insults them.
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote: I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
Do you have any micro maps in particular that you would recommend for single player?
i dunno the ones ive played all have korean names and i dont have them on this computer, sorry.
iirc the most common ones seem to be muta micro투신뮤탈, hero muta영웅뮤탈, and adays.
It won't die, but Terrans have become so good at defending it that it now only serves 1 purpose (keeping the Terran in his base) instead of 2 (keeping the Terran in his base AND doing quite some damage) back when Savior invented it made it popular. It's now the standard opening because it allows the Z to put up a 3rd relatively safe (although T will try to attack it not long after) and have a decent eco for late game hive play which is the ultimate goal of the build. If you want to do massive damage with mutas though, you have to either do a 2 hatch muta build or go mass muta after 3 hatch (with air upg). Both is risky but can work sometimes depending on the Terran's build and micro. 3hatch muta won't grant you an auto-win anymore (unless the Terran really fucks up with micro (very rare, don't count on it)) but it's a safe, standard build that allows you to transition to hive with ease, you just have to take care not to lose your 3rd and not to die to a timing attack right before you have lurkers (earlier) or defilers with consume (later).
On October 20 2008 16:41 Wolverine wrote: My friend plays one hatch guardian.
That's pretty hardcore
More responding to the op, three hatch muta will still be standard, just because it lets you play old savior style (using muta to harass until third gas+hive tech kicks in). Most of the time with solid (not godly) muta micro at the non-pro level, this will work just fine.
At the pro level, it's looking like zerg's will need to start having better scouting, and react more to what the T is doing; this is necessary to counter the better micro (casy, and boxer before him showed that 12 marines >> 3 lurkers). Zerg's right now are starting to go 2 hatch muta or 2 hatch lurker because it requires a lot less scouting/guessing correctly, and forces the T to respond to Z.
On October 20 2008 17:19 distant_voice wrote: ALL HAIL THE GREAT MANIFESTO!
LET US PRAY FOR HIS MIGHT TO SHATTER THE GROUNDS OF MANY MORE THREADS
Ummm.... I'm missing something here. Could you explain?
EDIT do you guys remember that game where Jaedong did a lurker slow-drop? I think it was against Terran. I just remember that the oponent was not top level and got totally crushed. That build certainly has a large surprise factor (but sucks if scouted) and is very map dependent, but is really fun. I hope to see a few more of those.
3hatch muta is still viable, it just shouldn't be the only viable build. It's safer for Zerg, but it's also safer for the Terran opponent, as he can FE without worrying too much. By now the Terran defensive timing is such that by the time mutas arrive, well-placed turrets and a control group of marines with medics/stim/range/+1 weapons researching are already active, after which the Terran's main and nat are more or less untouchable until the late game, while Zerg has to have almost perfect 3rdgas/defensive/tech timing to withstand the Terran's push. 2hatch muta/kwanro/overpoolspeed offers more risk but also more opportunity, as the Zerg player's micro can really shine, and it can scare the Terran into making mistakes. Terran FE opens up a pretty huge timing window for Zerg that closes gradually as the marine count rises, stim and range are researched, and ebay/turrets are built. To go 3hatch is to lose this timing, whereas 2hatch/kwanro/overpoolspeed can still take advantage of it and punish Terran FE before its benefits kick in. All this is assuming that the Terran decides to FE. If he doesn't FE, then 3hatch is definitely the more resilient counter-build.
On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote: You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O
Two things made him bring this up.
1. He's european.
Leave TL if you gonna be racist
what the fuck? He's saying that Idra has been known to have bad relations with europeans as he insults them.
Thats the exact reason,look at a GG.net thread about Idra i 100% guarantee that 80% or more of the posts insulting him are made by europeans.
Don't know about all this talk of 2 hat muta being a better opening, but what do I know.
Seem's that the only times we're seeing 2 hat builds regularly is on the new maps, which are mostly garbage for ZvT. So I don't think 3 hat muta's going to be dieing anytime soon.
Of course Jaedongs been opening 2 hat muta every ZvT he's played for a while now...Interesting thread.
EDIT: oh and P.S, it's really easy to get good muta micro. You can literally practice it for about 10 hrs and have it near perfect. So people should stop flaming Idra (which seems to have become a common pass time lately.......)
On October 21 2008 06:17 Piy wrote: Don't know about all this talk of 2 hat muta being a better opening, but what do I know.
Seem's that the only times we're seeing 2 hat builds regularly is on the new maps, which are mostly garbage for ZvT. So I don't think 3 hat muta's going to be dieing anytime soon.
Of course Jaedongs been opening 2 hat muta every ZvT he's played for a while now...Interesting thread.
EDIT: oh and P.S, it's really easy to get good muta micro. You can literally practice it for about 10 hrs and have it near perfect. So people should stop flaming Idra (which seems to have become a common pass time lately.......)
On October 21 2008 06:45 onihunter wrote: Getting the harassing aspect of muta micro isn't impossible, but for me, multitasking and macroing/teching while muta microing is near impossible :/
So I don't think you can truly master muta harass realistically in like a day or two.
being able to micro mutas easy. being able to micro mutas and harass while expanding and teching hive is hard as hell, even pros can't do it perfectly.
I can attest to the learning muta micro. Its easy in theory. The application of patrol and hold position scourge targeting, the angles in which its okay to attack mnm and such are all do able in under two weeks ...
Being able to muta vs mnm on open ground takes a lifetime. Being able to prefectly transition into the mid-game with your mutas intact when vessels/tanks and 5-6 rax of mnm are roaming about .... takes a lifetime.
On October 20 2008 02:40 Chill wrote: Stop derailing this shit.
Obviously we're talking about Koreans, since foreigner play emulates professional play, and obviously every Korea has progamer Mutalisk micro. We are seeing a swing from standard 3 Hatch play to 2 Hatch and Kwanro openings. I'm saying in the hands of a perfect player, 2 Hatch is a fundamentally better opening; so as players improve the push should be towards 2 Hatch.
I started using 2 hatch openings the other day I didn't use them before because I thought them inferior but was stunned by how good they actually are you can get that 3rd hatchery up soon enough but you get nice tech and you don't even really set your economy that far behind if you pump drones.
EPT
).
