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Will three hatch muta ever die? - Page 3

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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SilverskY
Profile Joined September 2008
Korea (South)3086 Posts
October 19 2008 21:04 GMT
#41
I think muta oriented builds will have to evolve soon though, seeing that now interesting BO's including Valkyries seem to be coming around the corner.
Graphics
zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
October 19 2008 21:39 GMT
#42
The key to successful pro lurker openings seems to be hatching the lurks outside of main. Progamers seem to mostly think of 2 hatch play as cheese. I haven't seen that much signs yet that it will become a long game strat.
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
tKd_
Profile Joined February 2005
United States2916 Posts
October 19 2008 21:45 GMT
#43
2 hatch muta is def. better than 3 hatch muta imo, just as long as you put your third hatch in an expo and you can micro well. ESPECIALLY bcause terrans are using unconventional tactics, where it works well against 3 hatch mutas. i really don't think zergs will change that much tho, if anything they will learn to sacrifice an overlord more to the terran's base to see wats going on.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-19 22:25:16
October 19 2008 22:24 GMT
#44
On October 20 2008 04:23 ScarFace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2008 04:04 Chill wrote:
European isn't a race.
Typically European is taken as White, just as "African american" is taken as black. Obviously its not very accurate, as there are many non whites in Europe, and many non blacks in Africa, but hey.

It's obviously not racist though...Idra said European countries are pretty poor at starcraft, and since then a few Europeans have actually taken offense to it and have been hostile to Idra, despite it being a joke.


Just because someone thinks something is a joke doesnt mean everyone does that.

Be happy!

Lim Yo Hwan forever!
FreeDoM[YA]
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Canada855 Posts
October 19 2008 23:20 GMT
#45
On October 20 2008 07:24 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2008 04:23 ScarFace wrote:
On October 20 2008 04:04 Chill wrote:
European isn't a race.
Typically European is taken as White, just as "African american" is taken as black. Obviously its not very accurate, as there are many non whites in Europe, and many non blacks in Africa, but hey.

It's obviously not racist though...Idra said European countries are pretty poor at starcraft, and since then a few Europeans have actually taken offense to it and have been hostile to Idra, despite it being a joke.


Just because someone thinks something is a joke doesnt mean everyone does that.

Be happy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5BxymuiAxQ


lol steven hawking.. hoom-de-a-ta.. I love that little jingle!
ScarFace
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1175 Posts
October 19 2008 23:30 GMT
#46
are they saying who we are, boom de are, hoom de are... what?

It really annoys me because it sounds different each time. Who we are makes the most sense though.
Can you dig it?
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17735 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-20 02:05:00
October 20 2008 02:03 GMT
#47
This might be irreleveant abit. I remember listening to the korean commentaries for some games proleague or gom i think it was flash vs pooh destination or maybe it was sea.really vs type.b. They were talking about how before zerg used to complain about how terrans would do really greedy builds like 1 rax no marine or 1 marine double command while the zerg couldnt do anything to stop it. Then zerg started using the gas first 2 hatch muta and started destroying terrans like flash vs jaedong. To adapt to this terrans started doing more unconvential openings like vulture into wrath and now zergs are saying that they had it better when terrans just used 1 rax greedy builds.
ils
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
October 20 2008 02:38 GMT
#48
On October 20 2008 03:34 CDRdude wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2008 22:38 IdrA wrote:
On October 19 2008 20:37 damenmofa wrote:
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote:
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.

na, only if u have progamer muta micro

every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro'
its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.

2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.

Do you have any micro maps in particular that you would recommend for single player?

i dunno the ones ive played all have korean names and i dont have them on this computer, sorry.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
DamageControL
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States4222 Posts
October 20 2008 02:38 GMT
#49
On October 20 2008 03:47 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2008 02:29 arb wrote:
On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote:
You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O


Two things made him bring this up.

1. He's european.


Leave TL if you gonna be racist

what the fuck? He's saying that Idra has been known to have bad relations with europeans as he insults them.
Liquid | SKT
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17735 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-20 03:02:31
October 20 2008 02:43 GMT
#50
On October 20 2008 11:38 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2008 03:34 CDRdude wrote:
On October 19 2008 22:38 IdrA wrote:
On October 19 2008 20:37 damenmofa wrote:
On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote:
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.

na, only if u have progamer muta micro

every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro'
its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.

2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.

Do you have any micro maps in particular that you would recommend for single player?

i dunno the ones ive played all have korean names and i dont have them on this computer, sorry.

iirc the most common ones seem to be muta micro투신뮤탈, hero muta영웅뮤탈, and adays.

Link to one http://rapidshare.com/files/39902629/MUTA_MICRO.scx.html I like it the most seems most realistic.
ils
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
0xDEADBEEF
Profile Joined September 2007
Germany1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-20 04:42:19
October 20 2008 04:41 GMT
#51
It won't die, but Terrans have become so good at defending it that it now only serves 1 purpose (keeping the Terran in his base) instead of 2 (keeping the Terran in his base AND doing quite some damage) back when Savior invented it made it popular.
It's now the standard opening because it allows the Z to put up a 3rd relatively safe (although T will try to attack it not long after) and have a decent eco for late game hive play which is the ultimate goal of the build.
If you want to do massive damage with mutas though, you have to either do a 2 hatch muta build or go mass muta after 3 hatch (with air upg). Both is risky but can work sometimes depending on the Terran's build and micro.
3hatch muta won't grant you an auto-win anymore (unless the Terran really fucks up with micro (very rare, don't count on it)) but it's a safe, standard build that allows you to transition to hive with ease, you just have to take care not to lose your 3rd and not to die to a timing attack right before you have lurkers (earlier) or defilers with consume (later).
Wolverine
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
138 Posts
October 20 2008 07:41 GMT
#52
My friend plays one hatch guardian.
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
October 20 2008 08:00 GMT
#53
On October 20 2008 16:41 Wolverine wrote:
My friend plays one hatch guardian.


That's pretty hardcore

More responding to the op, three hatch muta will still be standard, just because it lets you play old savior style (using muta to harass until third gas+hive tech kicks in). Most of the time with solid (not godly) muta micro at the non-pro level, this will work just fine.

At the pro level, it's looking like zerg's will need to start having better scouting, and react more to what the T is doing; this is necessary to counter the better micro (casy, and boxer before him showed that 12 marines >> 3 lurkers). Zerg's right now are starting to go 2 hatch muta or 2 hatch lurker because it requires a lot less scouting/guessing correctly, and forces the T to respond to Z.
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17735 Posts
October 20 2008 08:01 GMT
#54
congrats
ils
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
distant_voice
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Germany2521 Posts
October 20 2008 08:19 GMT
#55
ALL HAIL THE GREAT MANIFESTO!

LET US PRAY FOR HIS MIGHT TO SHATTER THE GROUNDS OF MANY MORE THREADS
This is my truth, tell me yours!
inlagdsil
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada957 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-20 08:36:33
October 20 2008 08:31 GMT
#56
On October 20 2008 17:19 distant_voice wrote:
ALL HAIL THE GREAT MANIFESTO!

LET US PRAY FOR HIS MIGHT TO SHATTER THE GROUNDS OF MANY MORE THREADS

Ummm.... I'm missing something here. Could you explain?

EDIT do you guys remember that game where Jaedong did a lurker slow-drop? I think it was against Terran. I just remember that the oponent was not top level and got totally crushed. That build certainly has a large surprise factor (but sucks if scouted) and is very map dependent, but is really fun. I hope to see a few more of those.
There is nothing cuter than a zergling when it has just started taking crack
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
October 20 2008 09:37 GMT
#57
We should not trash this topic, because I think its a pretty interesting discussion.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
EvoChamber
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France2505 Posts
October 20 2008 18:22 GMT
#58
3hatch muta is still viable, it just shouldn't be the only viable build. It's safer for Zerg, but it's also safer for the Terran opponent, as he can FE without worrying too much. By now the Terran defensive timing is such that by the time mutas arrive, well-placed turrets and a control group of marines with medics/stim/range/+1 weapons researching are already active, after which the Terran's main and nat are more or less untouchable until the late game, while Zerg has to have almost perfect 3rdgas/defensive/tech timing to withstand the Terran's push. 2hatch muta/kwanro/overpoolspeed offers more risk but also more opportunity, as the Zerg player's micro can really shine, and it can scare the Terran into making mistakes. Terran FE opens up a pretty huge timing window for Zerg that closes gradually as the marine count rises, stim and range are researched, and ebay/turrets are built. To go 3hatch is to lose this timing, whereas 2hatch/kwanro/overpoolspeed can still take advantage of it and punish Terran FE before its benefits kick in. All this is assuming that the Terran decides to FE. If he doesn't FE, then 3hatch is definitely the more resilient counter-build.
That's not awful writing, DAMMIT. It's perfectly sensical english construction.
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
October 20 2008 19:46 GMT
#59
On October 20 2008 11:38 DamageControL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2008 03:47 Zoler wrote:
On October 20 2008 02:29 arb wrote:
On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote:
You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O


Two things made him bring this up.

1. He's european.


Leave TL if you gonna be racist

what the fuck? He's saying that Idra has been known to have bad relations with europeans as he insults them.



Thats the exact reason,look at a GG.net thread about Idra i 100% guarantee that 80% or more of the posts insulting him are made by europeans.

No offense to you though.
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-20 21:18:33
October 20 2008 21:17 GMT
#60
Don't know about all this talk of 2 hat muta being a better opening, but what do I know.

Seem's that the only times we're seeing 2 hat builds regularly is on the new maps, which are mostly garbage for ZvT. So I don't think 3 hat muta's going to be dieing anytime soon.

Of course Jaedongs been opening 2 hat muta every ZvT he's played for a while now...Interesting thread.

EDIT: oh and P.S, it's really easy to get good muta micro. You can literally practice it for about 10 hrs and have it near perfect. So people should stop flaming Idra (which seems to have become a common pass time lately.......)
My. Copy. Is. Here.
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