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On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote:
You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O
did u read his post? he said u can learn progamer muta micro by sitting down on a muta micro map for 2 days...
and u dont need 300 apm for terrific muta micro alone, but u need a lot of apm and multitasking for terrific muta micro + flawless base management at the same time
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On October 19 2008 23:13 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2008 22:38 IdrA wrote:On October 19 2008 20:37 damenmofa wrote:On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote:
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer. na, only if u have progamer muta micro every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it. 2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular. wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days..
How does Idra stating something relevant to the thread based on his experience makes him ignorant? You're making irrelevant assertions. And being a prick while you're at it.
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If you talk about 'muta micro' as an isolated part of the game, I'm pretty sure 100+ apm is perfectly fine just for it alone.
BUT, by saying progamer muta micro, I think damenmofa means the abilty to micro your muta very well and, in adition, actually do something in your base at the same time.
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I can never beat terrans with 3hatch mutas now. It just doesn't work anymore.
edit: and 3hatch lurkers is just a horrible idea. It has never ever worked for me.
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On October 19 2008 23:13 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2008 22:38 IdrA wrote:On October 19 2008 20:37 damenmofa wrote:On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote:
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer. na, only if u have progamer muta micro every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it. 2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular. wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days..
How the fuck is he ignorant? Just because he owned you doesn't mean he's BM. You're an asshole. And you doesnt need like 300 apm to perfect muta micro, rather 100? He's the progamer, and I know too that progamers practice on micro maps to get better micro sometimes. Get your facts straight.
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can this thread not devolve into whether Idra is ignorant or Damenmofa is an asshole, please?
Edit: Why would 3 hatch lurker be a horrible idea, while 2 hatch lurker is more viable?
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Back on thread topic, I'd say that 3 hatch muta is still viable however it's position as the ''standard'' ZvT build is in danger because of the recent vult drop to valk+mech build.
We will have to wait and watch out how things evolve and how 3 hatch mutas can adjust to it.
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I find that 3 hatch lurkers gets the lurkers out too slow to pose a threat to the terran. If he scouts you right, he'll bunker up and should have vessals and tanks soon enough. 2 hatch lurkers give you the aggressive speed to actually break the nat before the terran can defend it properly, assuming everything goes alright.
In general I find that lurker builds don't really work too well because they get deflected easily if the terran scouts it, and terran can then easily force the lurkers to retreat. It's a personal bias though; I've always felt more comfortable using mutalisks than lurkers.
edit: The 3 hatch muta build became "solved" by terrans before any of the mech build stuff.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On October 20 2008 01:53 koreasilver wrote:
I find that 3 hatch lurkers gets the lurkers out too slow to pose a threat to the terran. If he scouts you right, he'll bunker up and should have vessals and tanks soon enough. 2 hatch lurkers give you the aggressive speed to actually break the nat before the terran can defend it properly, assuming everything goes alright.
In general I find that lurker builds don't really work too well because they get deflected easily if the terran scouts it, and terran can then easily force the lurkers to retreat. It's a personal bias though; I've always felt more comfortable using mutalisks than lurkers.
edit: The 3 hatch muta build became "solved" by terrans before any of the mech build stuff.
i don't think 2 hatch lurkers lets you break the terran natural at all, they will scout it with scan early enough and they will have a bunker or two up and you cannot break that with 2 base lurker ling. what it does let you do though is defend your third better and lets you build to a critical mass of lurkers (an amount that can't be killed by MM) much quicker
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On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote:
You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O
Two things made him bring this up.
1. He's european.
2. Its idra.
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Sure you see some 2 hatch lurk play or 2 hatch muta but i think in general 3hatch muta is still far and away the standard zvt build, and I don't think it's going away soon unless T strategy changes.
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Calgary26003 Posts
Stop derailing this shit.
Obviously we're talking about Koreans, since foreigner play emulates professional play, and obviously every Korea has progamer Mutalisk micro. We are seeing a swing from standard 3 Hatch play to 2 Hatch and Kwanro openings. I'm saying in the hands of a perfect player, 2 Hatch is a fundamentally better opening; so as players improve the push should be towards 2 Hatch.
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What is the 2 hatch lurker build order? Same as 3 hatch but ignoring hatch on 13/14? I would appreciate if anyone could think of a game recently with 2 hatch lurker, that wasn't an all in. I know thezerg/luxury tried it on ROTK this osl, but they did it with the intent of breaking the terrans natural, not playing to the late game.
Thanks in advance. 
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On October 20 2008 02:40 Chill wrote:
Stop derailing this shit.
Obviously we're talking about Koreans, since foreigner play emulates professional play, and obviously every Korea has progamer Mutalisk micro. We are seeing a swing from standard 3 Hatch play to 2 Hatch and Kwanro openings. I'm saying in the hands of a perfect player, 2 Hatch is a fundamentally better opening; so as players improve the push should be towards 2 Hatch.
yeah if were talking about koreans and a "perfect player" (lol), 2 hatch muta is the better build. Unfortunately you will still lose against a "perfect player" playing T, cus he will anticipate your muta movements and build enough static defense just in time...
For foreigners, the very large majority will still fare better with 3 hatch muta, or do you play 2 hat muta more often than 3 hat muta nowadays chill?
also that zoler guy annoys me, running around calling people names isnt exactly what id expect from a tl.net poster, and on top of that every post he makes just screams low level player 8[
100 apm for muta micro maybe, but not for muta micro and flawless base management dude t.t
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United States47024 Posts
On October 20 2008 02:50 damenmofa wrote:
also that zoler guy annoys me, running around calling people names isnt exactly what id expect from a tl.net poster, and on top of that every post he makes just screams low level player 8[
100 apm for muta micro maybe, but not for muta micro and flawless base management dude t.t
Because clearly BMing other posters is relevant to the thread. You're the one who started this by calling the one who's actually in Korea playing with progamers on a regular basis ignorant on a subject relevant to progamers.
IMO this will just be a cycle. Prior to 3-Hatch Muta's introduction as standard play, 2-Hatch play was standard. As more players come to expect 3-Hatch Muta, and prepare for it, 2-Hatch play will become more standard. As that becomes standard, people will expect it, and people will play 3-Hatch again to trip up their opponents.
In theory, we could see 1-Hatch play in the cycle, but that's just crazy (unless you're LastRomantic  ).
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yeah vs 4rax marine/medic with good micro + vessel =]
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On October 19 2008 22:38 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2008 20:37 damenmofa wrote:On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote:
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer. na, only if u have progamer muta micro every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it. 2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
Do you have any micro maps in particular that you would recommend for single player?
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On October 20 2008 02:29 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2008 23:26 LucasWoJ wrote:
You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O Two things made him bring this up. 1. He's european.
Leave TL if you gonna be racist
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Calgary26003 Posts
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On October 20 2008 04:04 Chill wrote:
European isn't a race. Typically European is taken as White, just as "African american" is taken as black. Obviously its not very accurate, as there are many non whites in Europe, and many non blacks in Africa, but hey.
It's obviously not racist though...Idra said European countries are pretty poor at starcraft, and since then a few Europeans have actually taken offense to it and have been hostile to Idra, despite it being a joke.
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EPT
