Since school is out I have enough time for some good old BW again. I haven't played in about 8 months or so I'm a bit rough. I've always been a D/D+ player most of the time, but now am holding a pretty strong C-/C spot and taking on C-/C players. I haven't gotten cannon rushed or even seen one done in any recent games so I think it's time they returned. Recently I've been playing a lot in Longinus because for one it's my favorite map and secondly it's currently MOTW. And I've been doing a pretty effective cannon rush technique that I though I'd share with you guys. Works about 60% of the time if done correctly and takes practically no skill (this is for you newbies! ).
It can be used on any map, but it's really effective Longinus/ Tau Cross because it's a three player map and has one less spot to scout. If you want easy wins or want to take early advantage of minerals/weaken your opponents economy this can be effective, or if you simply want to piss some people off this too can be for you as well.
First things first Race = Protoss.
8th Probe --> Pylon. Use that same Probe to go to scout.
9th Probe --> Forge. Use that Probe to head for other location in case opponent is not in the first place you scouted. The first probe should be about half way to the opponents base by the time you build your forge and send out the second probe.
Once your opponent has been found there are three key things that you have to look for and be very careful of:
1.) Where the hell the Overload is. He has to be somewhere, by sending out your two Probes earlier you had to have run into it either way if he used it for scouting. Send in your Probe into the base if you didn't see it and do a quick search if his not there don't worry about it too much just make sure his not moving towards your where your placing your Pylon because it'll turn ugly if he finds your cannons still building.
You should see this if he used it for scouting for the first overload depending on how early you get to his base. Try to find the second if you get there a little bit late and note in which direction its heading in so he doesn't run into you building your pylon.
The following three screen shots are of the same game, patience is key with overloads probe 1 spotted it and probe 2 waited patiently outside until it moved out of the way to place the pylon. You can see the first probe inside the base while the second moves into position. Team Work!
2.) Be aware of how much site a Hatchery that is currently building has, I find it a good idea to use put your thumb on the screen to get a good measurement. I usually do a full thumbs length measurement (this may very with thumb and/or screen size).
3.) The final factor to take into account is the most important, did the opponent do 9 Pool or 12 Hatch or 12 Pool. If his does 9 Pool you can still pull it off, but you have to do it quickly or else you're fucked.
- "What IF" situations: (you can ask and I'll answer that's the only really important one I can think of)
Q: What IF the opponent sees my cannons still building and goes all with in drones to kill them?
A: You're Cannons have a lot of HP so they can take a big number of hits from the opponents Drones. This does NOT mean however that the Drones cannot destroy them. In my experience with this strategy is, if they go all in with Drones they have enough attack power to destroy the Cannons. This varies, on how far into development the Cannons are, but they CAN be taken out in time with Drones alone. Remember you (should) have two probes in opponent's base a bit of fancy micro work can back them up and stall the attack. If you think you'll need more time building a Gateway in front of your cannons is also a good idea. The Gateway will limit how many drones can attack at once.
If you are successful with the above you will find victory within your grasp you just have to claim it. Killing the expansion weakens your opponents economy and provides a containment that they'll have to put resources in to break it. From that point on it should be relatively easy to finish off the opponent but it's a good idea to scout in the base every so often to see if his massing lings or hydras to try to break through the containment.
If his going ground place a couple more Cannons down. If his going air either go for a fast finish or protect your main first and then build up enough force to run him over.
How you finish him is up to you, you can do a quick Zelot rush in (be careful of sunkens) or go get Corsair do some Ovi killing and finish him off with a combination of units. My personal favorite is to sneak a probe in behind the base and build even more cannons in his main for a perfect unitless flawless victory. Like so:
You can measure the level of your success by the type of insult you get the bigger the curse word he calls you the better the job was done. My personal all time favorite comment.
And to toot my own horn and show off a little some + help you guys out (seeing is better than reading IMO and sometimes I don't even understand myself when I write) some replays of the strategy in action. I think all were played this week or the week before. I uploaded on two different size their the same thing. 6 replays overall best games I think are vs scotland2k8 and ilovetiff. This worked vs BlueLaguna as well I think his a member here. Enjoy~
I see your hidden tau cross screen. I like learning about cannon rushes, though I prefer doing them where the opponent can see them, because it's funnier that way.
Ah cannon rush is my favorite gayness :D How do you deal with your own delayed tech though? What about you show him in the tip of his range a pylon wraping inside his main and to distract him while ur cannons wrap in?
On May 31 2008 10:53 micronesia wrote: How do you deal with the zerg sending a late drone to scout? Is your pylon going to be after anyway?
You send out two probes you'll see the drone coming to spy before the second probe gets there, when the opponent's drone gets to your base he'll see a pylon and a forge. Nothing too suspicious probably thinks your going to FE.
When it fails, how does it usually fail?
Sees your going to cannon rush him sends in drones kills cannons and sends his lings to your base easily killing your defenseless probes.
On May 31 2008 10:54 evanthebouncy! wrote: Ah cannon rush is my favorite gayness :D How do you deal with your own delayed tech though?
Just because you cannon rushed him doesn't mean he's going to quit right after its a good idea to keep building probes so you keep your economy up, but don't cache 2-3 at a time, keep it to one while your building your cannons. You'll economy will be hurt a little, but not as much as your opponents, you'll still have a heads up.
What about you show him in the tip of his range a pylon wraping inside his main and to distract him while ur cannons wrap in?
Haha, actually that's a good idea, building a pylon in his main to keep him distracted looking away from his expo.
more experienced zergs have better anti-cheese senses, 1. ur nexus is later than he expects (trust me good zergs know exactly when a nexus is supposed to start), 2. ur scouting probe leaves zerg main and goes to his natural for no good reason, 3. overlord spotting a second probe coming, 4. zerg gets paranoid for no reason, all these will cause the zerg to send a drone to his natural to check, and if morphing pylons are spotted he'll immediately bring more drones to defend. but then again, u are talking about c-, it's worth a try i guess.
serious cannon cheese attempts should utilize specific mineral positions to block off your cannons with pylons, so zerg will have to jump drones across his mineral line to stop u, that might give u better chances, but i think we already have threads on how to abuse certain maps with cannons.
EDIT: if u really want to fool ur opponent the way u do it, u should 1. keep ur scouting probe in his main so he doesn't get suspicious, 2. sneak a second probe to his natural without being seen to make pylon and cannons, 3. put a probe at ur own natural where u should be making a nexus to fool him into thinking that u are waiting for minerals to start a nexus. but even so, if zerg is good he'll check ur natural more than once and a delayed nexus is a dead give away.
On May 31 2008 11:45 w3jjjj wrote: return of the cannons lol....
more experienced zergs have better anti-cheese senses,
This is very true, tried it vs a C+ player saw he went 3 hatch hydras so I added a lot more cannons after taking his expansion, but he got ovi sac and just lifted everything out his base. Was wide open with no cannons so pretty much gg for me. This strat is moslty meant for D to C- players you can pull it off with higher ranks, but its a bit harder (at least for me).
1. keep ur scouting probe in his main so he doesn't get suspicious, 2. sneak a second probe to his natural without being seen to make pylon and cannons
First scouting probe is always kept in main to harass drones and keep him looking away from main target and the second probe is never seen by the ovi he only sees one probe at all times. Theres no need to take out his natural if you can more easily take out his expansion from outside.
As far as the "suspecting" something is up thou this in done before or right when the pool is created and your argument that the nexus is delayed is not a good one. Take into account 2 cannons or even 1 with the pylon, that's 250-400 minerals exactly what a nexus costs by the time he should "suspect" something and send a drone to scout cannons should be right about done.
good effort, this doesn't work vs C zerg though. Any good zerg would have a habit of using 13 drone to scout around before building 3rd hatch. If he sees u cannon, he pull 4 drone/cannon -> cannons die u left with huge macro disadvantage
On May 31 2008 13:22 Yaqoob wrote: If I think cannon rushing might work then I do it. I love the feeling you get when you successfully cannon rush someone.
Only if they decided not to click on it And once they did, they'd definitely know something was up - I'd say you'd be better off just pretending your timing is off.
The idea of putting a fake and just-seen pylon in the main sounds like a lot of fun, though. Most people, having defused a badly executed trap, don't bother to look for a better one. Easy way to deceive someone ^^
On May 31 2008 15:20 aokces wrote: About the zerg spotting a delayed nexus:
How convincing would it be to warp in a pylon where the nexus would be at your expo?
Not very, i know i always click on it to see its progress.
The biggest factor in getting away with a cannon rush is having your probe spotted. I rarely use an extra drone to scout unless i'm extra suspicious. For example, if a see a probe enter my main but i don't see which direction it goes after it leaves, i'll redirect my 2nd ovie or maybe use a drone.
I definitely wouldn't say any C zerg can stop all cannon rushes. After all, it was successful in the TSL. (Rondo cannon rushed i think?) If you can be clever with your probes and scouting, you could easily get cannons down. I face them wayy more often on bnet than i do on iCCup, and even average bnet players can sometimes trick me (i'm around C+).
hehe i used to do this kinda cute thing on tau cross like I would build the pylon that normally blocks the entrance next to their exp instead, if it was in view of an overlord or something then they had the predictable response of sending a bunch of drones to get the pylon then when drones were out of the base, I'd THEN build a pylon in the block cuz then the drones were stopped from mining for a good while hoo ha
On May 31 2008 17:11 Liquid`Drone wrote: hehe i used to do this kinda cute thing on tau cross like I would build the pylon that normally blocks the entrance next to their exp instead, if it was in view of an overlord or something then they had the predictable response of sending a bunch of drones to get the pylon then when drones were out of the base, I'd THEN build a pylon in the block cuz then the drones were stopped from mining for a good while hoo ha
On May 31 2008 17:11 Liquid`Drone wrote: hehe i used to do this kinda cute thing on tau cross like I would build the pylon that normally blocks the entrance next to their exp instead, if it was in view of an overlord or something then they had the predictable response of sending a bunch of drones to get the pylon then when drones were out of the base, I'd THEN build a pylon in the block cuz then the drones were stopped from mining for a good while hoo ha
On May 31 2008 15:20 aokces wrote: About the zerg spotting a delayed nexus:
How convincing would it be to warp in a pylon where the nexus would be at your expo?
I think since the nexus is 4x3 and a pylon 2x2, you cant put it so its center would be correct so even without clicking they might notice it is odd and then click it.
it's not like it doesn't work on C+ or higher, but you will need to have really good micro/well practised placement and a backup plan. You need to presume that the zerg scouts it, so either try to pick off some drones if you go 1gate forge at exp and he goes 12hatch, or just try prevent him from mining while you put your exp up and casually cancel the cannons. It puts you slightly behind though, so I don't do it much anymore. I liked to do this on Blue Storm behind the minerals, it did work against some good zergs, but then everyone started going 9pool speedlings and you really have to play a lot better than your opponent to climb back into the game after a cannon rush vs 9pool.
On May 31 2008 11:45 w3jjjj wrote: return of the cannons lol....
more experienced zergs have better anti-cheese senses, 1. ur nexus is later than he expects (trust me good zergs know exactly when a nexus is supposed to start), 2. ur scouting probe leaves zerg main and goes to his natural for no good reason, 3. overlord spotting a second probe coming, 4. zerg gets paranoid for no reason, all these will cause the zerg to send a drone to his natural to check, and if morphing pylons are spotted he'll immediately bring more drones to defend. but then again, u are talking about c-, it's worth a try i guess.
1. is the best no#1 reason why it shouldn't work. when i see the nexus is not going up when it should be I send 3 drones to check my nat (if I've sent my overlord off to scout & it doesn't have vis).
If you send your second overlord to your nat, you should always be able to stop it.
If you scout well with a drone and dont assume that protoss can only place cannons behind your mineral only(like me lol), you shoud be able to stop it.
On May 31 2008 14:38 Liquid`Drone wrote: ya on a high level theres mostly no point in bothering with cannon rush unless he slips up and lets you build blocked in behind his minerals
on a low level its very good for sure
What do you mean with slip up? Like, how do you prevent him when he can block him self in with one pylon? (Luna 2 and 7 a clock comes to mind but it has happened to me on other maps too) I'll usually notice that something is wrong and send a drone to check for rushes due to the probe being gone for a while/late nexus. Problem is that when i do he already has his probe locked in behind a pylon and before i can get a drone jumped over he usually warps in his cannon, sometimes they even manage to jump the probe back over the minerals again in the process and keep on making cannons/sends another probe over to do that. Should i always scout with two drones when i get paranoid so i can jump them over right away or is there some other trick to deal with this?
I like doing sexy cannon rushes with the pylon on the other side of a wall/cliff, or the cannon hidden behind a wall until it finishes.
Once on Arcadia I built the pylon behind one of the thin walls, cannoned there, and then built another cannon on the other side of the wall. When he pulled drones the first cannon melted them. It was the sexiest thing I've ever done :p
On June 01 2008 08:05 Supah wrote: Should i always scout with two drones when i get paranoid so i can jump them over right away or is there some other trick to deal with this?
You need to have good anti-cheese sense developed over time. So that in your mind you know the progress of his pylons should he build one, if you got suspicious early u only need to send one drone to confirm, but if you got suspicious late and you know that if he did cannon rush the pylon is about to finish, then you send like 5 drones to make sure. I mean yea you'll lose some mining time if it turned out to be paranoia, but it could save you games. Overall, you just need to have a timer in your head.
if you're located at a spot where its possible to block you in with cannons you should send lord directly to exp, once you see him send probe to a place where its natural to place pylon, send 2 drones immediately, then do mineral jumping trick to place drone on the backside, where he's going to be placing cannon. (cause his pylon isnt even going to have finished yet thus he cant have built cannon) to be really safe i guess you sometimes have to send 3 drones instead, so you can mineral jump 2 of them, but well, mineral jumping before pylon finishes is how you beat it. sending drones too late, not sending lord to exp, fucking up mineral jump, those are all ways to slip up. but like, even if you end up losing jumping drone to probe, even then cannon is normally delayed just about enough to make you able to defend.
On June 02 2008 08:02 TheSchwA wrote: is this a joke...
no, it's called the two probe shuffle and it works a lot of times because most Z, even up to around C+ level do not expect you to have two scouting probes in play. The second comes in from behind and does the dirty work while the first is the assumed lone scouting probe.
I don't really play Starcraft anymore, but I remember that when I did play, I would often do cannon rush on Longinus a lot. It seemed safest to go 10forge - you can call this newb now if you want, but the timing for this seemed perfect, I would take the pylon probe to scout, and the forge probe to go to the other base, and I'd always find the Zerg at the perfect time. Without reading the thread in detail, were the numbers for pylon like about 425 hatch health, 850'ish for cannon? I loved this strategy. If FireBlast! ever reads this he will choke me though, since he was the first guy I tried this on and it destroyed him (I think he went triple hatch before pool though).
On May 31 2008 22:47 MiniRoman wrote: My teammate Hyuga offensive cannons all the time lol.
Is this Hyuga person also Hyugarikudo or plays Smash Bros? :D j/w
I raped so many zergs thanks to that (most notable when qualifying for last years WCG Hungary finals ) They folded under PRESSURE, just like Testie, lol.
I've been thinking about cannoning in my PvT games, but my idea is a bit unconventional - bear with me: my idea is, to create a defensive structure when an advantage has been gained in the middle game, to prevent terran attacks. Ideally, this would take the form of a huge pylon heart filled with cannons. It's worked for me a couple of times, I think you should try it.
On June 06 2008 04:11 betaben wrote: I've been thinking about cannoning in my PvT games, but my idea is a bit unconventional - bear with me: my idea is, to create a defensive structure when an advantage has been gained in the middle game, to prevent terran attacks. Ideally, this would take the form of a huge pylon heart filled with cannons. It's worked for me a couple of times, I think you should try it.
EPT
). 
![[image loading]](http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6606/89probesj1.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2372/forgeplacementbp2.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/2008/probeovijo8.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/6969/spottingovi1ah9.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3412/spottingovi2ms8.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/6609/cannonbyhatchzx0.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/2982/taucrossnz9.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/9873/pytonjc9.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7760/nopoolll9.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7858/gatewaydt2.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6201/aroundtownmg3.bmp)
![[image loading]](http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/5215/fngkrnjw0.bmp)
This strat is moslty meant for D to C- players you can pull it off with higher ranks, but its a bit harder (at least for me).
And once they did, they'd definitely know something was up - I'd say you'd be better off just pretending your timing is off.
I loved this strategy. If FireBlast! ever reads this he will choke me though, since he was the first guy I tried this on and it destroyed him (I think he went triple hatch before pool though).
