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Hi everyone! Im an usual TL forum reader and I wanted to ask for help to everyone. I've been taking seriously gaming since 4 months and I want to improve as much as I can.
Well, my question is:
When's the perfect moment to decide teching Carrier or Arbiter against Normal Terran siege-mine slow push?
Watching reps i cant find the "rules" of this, since every match is different and there are differents situations ofc.
My "fear" is that since i dont know the "timing" issue of this im usually raped when they scan my tech and they make the push more agressive.
SO theres two situations that make me fail almost everytime in serious matches.
1) I tech too late. For some reason i havent denied the expo that i had to or whatever and im outmacroed pretty hard.
2) I dont tech. So some matches i win them. Using normal push zeal-goon-templar-shuttle and micro-macro (But i dont know the timing of this either, so its a bit luck if I win).
And maybe 60% of the matches i lose them with this 2) since mine+tank with upgrades in some maps and in some moments is really hard for me to break his barrier, even if i micro ass hell reaver harass or DT.
I got a lot of things to work in, but this is an important one for me atm.
Thanks to everyone!
Sorry if my english sucks, im learning it in an academy .
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You want to tech up when your expos are running smoothly, and you have 200/200. You can't spend money on units, so thats when you should build 1-2 stargates and then depending on what you're going, arbiters or carriers, you make a fleet beacon and/or a tribunal.
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is awesome32271 Posts
Arbiters against carriers is more of a map thing imo.
On maps with lots of cliffs, narrow chokes and things like that you should get carriers. Cliffs allows for carrier abuse against goliaths, chokes make the goliath walk difficult against moving carriers). Chokes also help the terran in ground vs ground fights. Maps that follow this criteria are R-Point and Katrina for example.
On maps with wide middle you usually go Arbiters. In open areas goliaths kills carriers easier (at least in a even skill level). Maps like RoV have wide places. With arbiters you can abuse the open terrain with ground flanks, stasis the tanks (the ones in the back ALWAYS). Or just recall his main if he decides to move out.
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sometimes i would go with a fast arbiter with stasis, since the tech is very fast once u get the templar archives up, then just continue with stargate and arbiter..
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On March 26 2008 10:11 il0seonpurpose wrote:
You want to tech up when your expos are running smoothly, and you have 200/200. You can't spend money on units, so thats when you should build 1-2 stargates and then depending on what you're going, arbiters or carriers, you make a fleet beacon and/or a tribunal.
umm if both youand terran have 200/200 and you have no arbiter or carrier tech, chances are you'll get raped pretty badly unless you get off amazing storms, if your on three or four bases i think the standard is to tech up at least after you stop the terrans first push, unless you're trying to rush arb or carrier
edit: the breaking the push guideline doesnt apply when terran just crawls to a third and turtles until a max
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United States42255 Posts
I actually think this is extremely dependent on game flow, image and threat. You need to get into their head. If they are going to mass up for a while it is perfectly fine to rush to carriers, leaving yourself open provided you cover youself by hiding tech and retaining an offensive image by things like mine clearing . However if they are aware of your unit count and pushing you then long term priorities like carriers are obviously unimportant. I'd not recommend expanding as you go carriers (unless to an island) because it forces them to do one of two things, take another exp or kill yours, both of which involve them exerting map control. So basically you want to avoid forcing them to march into the middle of the map when your money is tied up in carrier tech. If you are given absolutely no slack during the mid game then you cannot go carrier and should reserve it as a sudden tech change viable immediately after the first 200/200 battle leaves psi free.
Also I think carrier should often be used as a transitionary tech, into a late game ground + arbiter based build which absolutely destroys goliathtank builds. Unless the map allows for horrific carrier abuse (read peaks) I often prefer 5 or so carriers into arbiter play. Firstly, they over goliath allowing your main army to destroy them (goons being far more effective vs goliaths than vultures). Secondly 5 carriers is a highly mobile and very considerable force on it's own, allowing heavy support of your main army, harass of expansions and sniping units. It very much cuts down on T mobility and is extremely useful for prepping the ground for recall. Thirdly, the direct counters of carriers, 3-3 goliaths and wraiths, are actually good at what they do so carriers lose their effectiveness over time.
Making 5-6 carriers and actively trying not to lose them, but rather use them for contain, harass and to force T to goliath while transitioning into a goon heavy, storm heavy late game army with arbiter support is a favourite imo.
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On March 26 2008 15:49 Kwark wrote:
I actually think this is extremely dependent on game flow, image and threat. You need to get into their head. If they are going to mass up for a while it is perfectly fine to rush to carriers, leaving yourself open provided you cover youself by hiding tech and retaining an offensive image by things like mine clearing . However if they are aware of your unit count and pushing you then long term priorities like carriers are obviously unimportant. I'd not recommend expanding as you go carriers (unless to an island) because it forces them to do one of two things, take another exp or kill yours, both of which involve them exerting map control. So basically you want to avoid forcing them to march into the middle of the map when your money is tied up in carrier tech. If you are given absolutely no slack during the mid game then you cannot go carrier and should reserve it as a sudden tech change viable immediately after the first 200/200 battle leaves psi free.
Also I think carrier should often be used as a transitionary tech, into a late game ground + arbiter based build which absolutely destroys goliathtank builds. Unless the map allows for horrific carrier abuse (read peaks) I often prefer 5 or so carriers into arbiter play. Firstly, they over goliath allowing your main army to destroy them (goons being far more effective vs goliaths than vultures). Secondly 5 carriers is a highly mobile and very considerable force on it's own, allowing heavy support of your main army, harass of expansions and sniping units. It very much cuts down on T mobility and is extremely useful for prepping the ground for recall. Thirdly, the direct counters of carriers, 3-3 goliaths and wraiths, are actually good at what they do so carriers lose their effectiveness over time.
Making 5-6 carriers and actively trying not to lose them, but rather use them for contain, harass and to force T to goliath while transitioning into a goon heavy, storm heavy late game army with arbiter support is a favourite imo.
goonz are in no way shape or form more effective against goliaths than vultures. but its better for them to be wasting gas on goliaths rather than on tanks that ARE much more effective against goonz that is all
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On March 27 2008 00:05 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2008 15:49 Kwark wrote:
I actually think this is extremely dependent on game flow, image and threat. You need to get into their head. If they are going to mass up for a while it is perfectly fine to rush to carriers, leaving yourself open provided you cover youself by hiding tech and retaining an offensive image by things like mine clearing . However if they are aware of your unit count and pushing you then long term priorities like carriers are obviously unimportant. I'd not recommend expanding as you go carriers (unless to an island) because it forces them to do one of two things, take another exp or kill yours, both of which involve them exerting map control. So basically you want to avoid forcing them to march into the middle of the map when your money is tied up in carrier tech. If you are given absolutely no slack during the mid game then you cannot go carrier and should reserve it as a sudden tech change viable immediately after the first 200/200 battle leaves psi free.
Also I think carrier should often be used as a transitionary tech, into a late game ground + arbiter based build which absolutely destroys goliathtank builds. Unless the map allows for horrific carrier abuse (read peaks) I often prefer 5 or so carriers into arbiter play. Firstly, they over goliath allowing your main army to destroy them (goons being far more effective vs goliaths than vultures). Secondly 5 carriers is a highly mobile and very considerable force on it's own, allowing heavy support of your main army, harass of expansions and sniping units. It very much cuts down on T mobility and is extremely useful for prepping the ground for recall. Thirdly, the direct counters of carriers, 3-3 goliaths and wraiths, are actually good at what they do so carriers lose their effectiveness over time.
Making 5-6 carriers and actively trying not to lose them, but rather use them for contain, harass and to force T to goliath while transitioning into a goon heavy, storm heavy late game army with arbiter support is a favourite imo. goonz are in no way shape or form more effective against goliaths than vultures. but its better for them to be wasting gas on goliaths rather than on tanks that ARE much more effective against goonz that is all
no mines to plow through right? I mean the vultures themselves are weaker but the mines make the goons stall.
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Storm + Carrier I think is always a viable option. Goliath Micro against carriers is difficult. Massing many goliaths is the best way to fight carriers, which makes them very vulnerable to Psi Storm.
This however, only applies to Open maps, since absuing the terrain won't well allow you to birng Templar along with your Carriers. You could use a Shuttle, but that's very micro intensive.
On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Carrier + Shuttle w/HT becomes the next link the professional Katrina metagame, using Psi Storm to counter Hold Position Goliath micro.
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Just for fun I actually have tried several times getting mind control and one dark archon towards mid to end game. I do this after I get arbiters. At this point using observers efficiently you can sneak in an ninja steal an scv where the terran does not have any turrets. I had a game where this happened and I was completely outplayed and run over, but because I had a shit ton of tanks secretly building I was able to hold him off and eventually win do to a few well placed recalls. I mostly just play for fun though. =]
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using the da in a shuttle of course
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On March 27 2008 08:51 zachmorris wrote:
Just for fun I actually have tried several times getting mind control and one dark archon towards mid to end game. I do this after I get arbiters. At this point using observers efficiently you can sneak in an ninja steal an scv where the terran does not have any turrets. I had a game where this happened and I was completely outplayed and run over, but because I had a shit ton of tanks secretly building I was able to hold him off and eventually win do to a few well placed recalls. I mostly just play for fun though. =]
Holy hell. Why have I never though of this? Can I emp your dark archon before he controls my scv? But than you'll use feedback. God damn so pro. 
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well most times when terran begins to push is when I fly in with a shuttle to wherever their fourth expansion will usually be. There is usually one or two scvs beginning to build a cc so I just steal that one. I usually get storm first and then arbiters also, but its the best way to use mind control. Godspeed my protoss brothers!
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United States24632 Posts
On March 27 2008 11:53 zachmorris wrote:
well most times when terran begins to push is when I fly in with a shuttle to wherever their fourth expansion will usually be. There is usually one or two scvs beginning to build a cc so I just steal that one. I usually get storm first and then arbiters also, but its the best way to use mind control. Godspeed my protoss brothers!
If you are able to do this I'm sure you are able to win straight up.
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Yeah it has worked most times. I have a rep of me doing it.
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United States24632 Posts
On March 27 2008 13:09 zachmorris wrote:
I won't be on again till later tomorrow, but I don't know how to post replays. Can someone explain this?
Can you stop double posting needlessly?
Anyway, one way to post replays is to post them to www.battlereports.com but do so sparingly.
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sure after this one I'm done. =]
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ok dat SCV steal shit is just there for the cuteness factor. who teh fuck is gonna do that in a real game unless your FBH playing protoss or something.
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The limitations are minerals and gas.
While carrier tech is mostly limited on minerals, arbiter tech is dependant on gas.
Most of the protoss fighting force is made of minerals(Zealots&Dragoons).
So in a balanced game you'll mostly without a risk can go arbiters because you won't be sacrificing anything.
Now the thing with carriers is you eigher have to risk(cut down on ground units), or have a good defensive map position(higher ground with shuttles/storm...) or have a ton off expands so you'll have a good mineral surplus.
In a balanced situation what usually happens is toss gets on defensive for a short time after switching to carrier tech and terran goes expand-frenzy, because you'll lack mobile ground force.
So if you have like 1/2 map taken it is much safer because you won't get overexpanded easily.
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On March 27 2008 17:05 LastWish wrote:
The limitations are minerals and gas.
While carrier tech is mostly limited on minerals, arbiter tech is dependant on gas.
Most of the protoss fighting force is made of minerals(Zealots&Dragoons).
So in a balanced game you'll mostly without a risk can go arbiters because you won't be sacrificing anything.
Now the thing with carriers is you eigher have to risk(cut down on ground units), or have a good defensive map position(higher ground with shuttles/storm...) or have a ton off expands so you'll have a good mineral surplus.
In a balanced situation what usually happens is toss gets on defensive for a short time after switching to carrier tech and terran goes expand-frenzy, because you'll lack mobile ground force.
So if you have like 1/2 map taken it is much safer because you won't get overexpanded easily.
Great response here. I honestly prefer Arbiters because I rarely use Storm and almost all the time my PvTs end up with me having 0 minerals and 3000 vespene ~_~
At least now I know what to do with that vespene
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United States42255 Posts
On March 27 2008 00:05 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2008 15:49 Kwark wrote:
I actually think this is extremely dependent on game flow, image and threat. You need to get into their head. If they are going to mass up for a while it is perfectly fine to rush to carriers, leaving yourself open provided you cover youself by hiding tech and retaining an offensive image by things like mine clearing . However if they are aware of your unit count and pushing you then long term priorities like carriers are obviously unimportant. I'd not recommend expanding as you go carriers (unless to an island) because it forces them to do one of two things, take another exp or kill yours, both of which involve them exerting map control. So basically you want to avoid forcing them to march into the middle of the map when your money is tied up in carrier tech. If you are given absolutely no slack during the mid game then you cannot go carrier and should reserve it as a sudden tech change viable immediately after the first 200/200 battle leaves psi free.
Also I think carrier should often be used as a transitionary tech, into a late game ground + arbiter based build which absolutely destroys goliathtank builds. Unless the map allows for horrific carrier abuse (read peaks) I often prefer 5 or so carriers into arbiter play. Firstly, they over goliath allowing your main army to destroy them (goons being far more effective vs goliaths than vultures). Secondly 5 carriers is a highly mobile and very considerable force on it's own, allowing heavy support of your main army, harass of expansions and sniping units. It very much cuts down on T mobility and is extremely useful for prepping the ground for recall. Thirdly, the direct counters of carriers, 3-3 goliaths and wraiths, are actually good at what they do so carriers lose their effectiveness over time.
Making 5-6 carriers and actively trying not to lose them, but rather use them for contain, harass and to force T to goliath while transitioning into a goon heavy, storm heavy late game army with arbiter support is a favourite imo. goonz are in no way shape or form more effective against goliaths than vultures. but its better for them to be wasting gas on goliaths rather than on tanks that ARE much more effective against goonz that is all
Vultures do 20 damage a hit vs half goon health and 5 a hit vs the other half meaning they start off twice as effective as goliaths and become half as effective. Vultures recieve 3/4 of goon damage compared to goliaths which take full damage. Vultures have mines which are not only good damage soakers (taking six hits between them which would pretty much kill a goliath) but they also own zealots. Add into that their greater cost, and ofc the gas limiting tank numbers, and you are far better off fighting a goliath heavy terran than a vulture one.
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I wasn't trying to be cute, and I don't see whats wrong with it. I'm just having fun. It doesn't always have to be so competitive.
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United States42255 Posts
On March 28 2008 07:07 zachmorris wrote:
I wasn't trying to be cute, and I don't see whats wrong with it. I'm just having fun. It doesn't always have to be so competitive.
In a strategy forum where people ask for advice it is normal to give useful strategic advice. While stealing scvs is both fun and a cool trick it is not relevant.
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Technically, it can be used as a strategy. Whether it happens to work or not...even though in the rep I posted it did work quite well. I just use it along with arbiters. I was just throwing it out there. :o
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On March 28 2008 11:28 zachmorris wrote:
Technically, it can be used as a strategy. Whether it happens to work or not...even though in the rep I posted it did work quite well. I just use it along with arbiters. I was just throwing it out there. :o
No technically it can't. Why? Because it sucks dick and is a huge waste of money AND time. It requires a huge investment in time and money for 2 dts, mind control research, a shuttle, a cc, suply depots, factories, to even have a CHANCE of doing something. Not to mention you have to wait for the DA to get full energy. Any reasonably competent player would beat the crap out of you if you tried such a horrible strategy. It worked because the player you played sucked, badly, even worse than you, which is saying ALOT. It's fine if you just play for fun but don't freaking argue with people who know a lot more than you and try to pass off crap strategies as viable just because it worked on a couple newbies. Do you really think no one has thought of mind controlling an scv before? That you're the first one to do it? Get real.
Normally I wouldnt be so harsh, but you obviously need a dose of reality.
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Arbiters are cheap...
Carriers are insta win...
Arbiter+Carrier = Cheap Insta Win...
And Foreverwar is a noob.
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United States42255 Posts
On March 29 2008 01:44 SuperJongMan wrote:
And Foreverwar is a noob.
But in this context, entirely correct.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On March 28 2008 13:13 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2008 11:28 zachmorris wrote:
Technically, it can be used as a strategy. Whether it happens to work or not...even though in the rep I posted it did work quite well. I just use it along with arbiters. I was just throwing it out there. :o No technically it can't. Why? Because it sucks dick and is a huge waste of money AND time. It requires a huge investment in time and money for 2 dts, mind control research, a shuttle, a cc, suply depots, factories, to even have a CHANCE of doing something. Not to mention you have to wait for the DA to get full energy. Any reasonably competent player would beat the crap out of you if you tried such a horrible strategy. It worked because the player you played sucked, badly, even worse than you, which is saying ALOT. It's fine if you just play for fun but don't freaking argue with people who know a lot more than you and try to pass off crap strategies as viable just because it worked on a couple newbies. Do you really think no one has thought of mind controlling an scv before? That you're the first one to do it? Get real. Normally I wouldnt be so harsh, but you obviously need a dose of reality.
actually it's very very rare to get MC late game and pull it off but that dosn't mean it's bad.
You can probably only do this if you're going arbiters (if you're going carriers you usually end up getting pushed at 200 food and you need to attack or counter attack somewhere to free up more food for carriers) becuase you'll have a templar archives already. When you get maxed while going arbiters you are rewarded more for sitting back for a few minutes and massing up gateways. then you can start flooding the terran and replenishing your army which will be almost entirely ground based. while you start massing up those gates you kill two zealots, make two dts and upgrade mind control. you should already have a shuttle by now and the places terrans are most likely to expand to usually have undefended scvs (like islands or other mains). These are very opprotune moments to snag a probe. getting about 4 or 5 tanks at the most crucial expo makes almost completely impossibe for terran to push. you may end up with moments where this becomes necessary as your arbiters may need more time to gain energy to start recalling and you'll have some extra cash to spend. Don't forget you can also recall tanks while in siege mode making for some interesting attacks.
the strat isn't entirely bad, it's actually very strong, but only when executed perfectly and there are only very rare moments that allow for it.
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On April 01 2008 21:08 MyLostTemple wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2008 13:13 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On March 28 2008 11:28 zachmorris wrote:
Technically, it can be used as a strategy. Whether it happens to work or not...even though in the rep I posted it did work quite well. I just use it along with arbiters. I was just throwing it out there. :o No technically it can't. Why? Because it sucks dick and is a huge waste of money AND time. It requires a huge investment in time and money for 2 dts, mind control research, a shuttle, a cc, suply depots, factories, to even have a CHANCE of doing something. Not to mention you have to wait for the DA to get full energy. Any reasonably competent player would beat the crap out of you if you tried such a horrible strategy. It worked because the player you played sucked, badly, even worse than you, which is saying ALOT. It's fine if you just play for fun but don't freaking argue with people who know a lot more than you and try to pass off crap strategies as viable just because it worked on a couple newbies. Do you really think no one has thought of mind controlling an scv before? That you're the first one to do it? Get real. Normally I wouldnt be so harsh, but you obviously need a dose of reality. actually it's very very rare to get MC late game and pull it off but that dosn't mean it's bad. You can probably only do this if you're going arbiters (if you're going carriers you usually end up getting pushed at 200 food and you need to attack or counter attack somewhere to free up more food for carriers) becuase you'll have a templar archives already. When you get maxed while going arbiters you are rewarded more for sitting back for a few minutes and massing up gateways. then you can start flooding the terran and replenishing your army which will be almost entirely ground based. while you start massing up those gates you kill two zealots, make two dts and upgrade mind control. you should already have a shuttle by now and the places terrans are most likely to expand to usually have undefended scvs (like islands or other mains). These are very opprotune moments to snag a probe. getting about 4 or 5 tanks at the most crucial expo makes almost completely impossibe for terran to push. you may end up with moments where this becomes necessary as your arbiters may need more time to gain energy to start recalling and you'll have some extra cash to spend. Don't forget you can also recall tanks while in siege mode making for some interesting attacks. the strat isn't entirely bad, it's actually very strong, but only when executed perfectly and there are only very rare moments that allow for it.
I've actually done this on a few occasions, and one time i would have lost the game had i not used this strat, using recall to get the scv out instead of a shuttle but it can be a great way to ensure victory in a really long drawn out game, having seige tanks is just so strong with a protoss army
*edit* it also looks cool
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I think the point though is that it will only work a) if you are a very high skilled player , b) if you are playing someone who is MUCH worse than you and you , c) you got very lucky .
Aka... someone trying to learn general strategy and improve shouldn't be confused by people telling him to go DA tech and mind control, that's not a common or viable strat to deal with terrans, because unless the above conditions (a, b, or c) are true, it will fail a majority of the time. There's a reason why you can't find 10-20 VODS of progamers doing it.
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The player I used it on had to have been a B level player. Yes, it can fail just like everything else can possibly fail, but whatever I don't really care.
peace
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United States42255 Posts
You're missing the point. The strategy forum is meant to advise people on strategies they should be using. Mind control PvT is not one of them because it is quite simply bad. If you have the time and money for these things you have already won.
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EPT
