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United States24753 Posts
I remember nony saying in his videos that the templar energy upgrade is very worthwhile since it allows high templar to cast 3 psionic storms instead of 2. In pvz I began getting that upgrade a couple of minutes after my storm had finished upgrading, but I never really gave any thought to the timing.
I just played a pvz where I researched the templar energy almost immediately after storm finished, and I'm trying to decide if that was wasteful, or if it is the reason why I did so well midgame (rep will be attached). I noticed in the recommended thread PvZ Strategy guide it says "Templar mana upgrade owns (especially vs hydralisk tech) and is totally worth it." And since my opponent went hydralisks into hydralurk, it seems to make sense that my decision to get the extra energy seemed to pay off.
The replay: http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=33005
So what I want to know is, was my decision to invest in the templar energy upgrade early part of the reason why I did well in the main battles midgame, or was the energy upgrade pretty much inconsequential? I think the effect would be more noticeable if I didn't stupidly get my first templar sniped by hydras early on... but next time I'll just double check that they are safely behind/next to cannons when they pop out.
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Before I watch the replay, here's a comment:
It also raises templar energy by 10-20 (I forget the exact number) when they spawn, so it only takes about 5 seconds to get enough to get a storm off as opposed to like 20-30. Supposedly it increases their regen rate too, but I'm a bit skeptical on that.
Edit: After watching the replay, I'd say there was nothing terribly wrong with your timing. You had three templar when you started researching it and you didn't make more until quite a bit later. That's probably earlier than I would research it (an extra templar probably makes a bigger difference, especially if you're trying to push early), but it's not like it hurt you. It made a difference when you pushed out because your second wave of templar you produced had enough for a storm and almost enough for a second one at that point, plus your initial templars were fully charged. He pretty much had no real chance of stopping that due to the relative sizes of the armies and the abundance of templar energy you had.
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On March 21 2008 02:18 zer0das wrote:
Before I watch the replay, here's a comment:
It also raises templar energy by 10-20 (I forget the exact number) when they spawn, so it only takes about 5 seconds to get enough to get a storm off as opposed to like 20-30. Supposedly it increases their regen rate too, but I'm a bit skeptical on that.
o snap i didnt realise that i hope its true, if so id get that asap!!
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I agree, the extra energy at spawn pays off huge if you are facing a 3-hatch hydra build. Also, I would reccomend getting always mid to late game versus Zerg because that one extra storm per HT definitely pays off. The more storms you have to pick off the zerglings the better chance you have of your warrior units being able to defend against the ultras.
EDIT: If they are going Ultra/Ling that is  .
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On March 21 2008 02:23 ShmotZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 02:18 zer0das wrote:
Before I watch the replay, here's a comment:
It also raises templar energy by 10-20 (I forget the exact number) when they spawn, so it only takes about 5 seconds to get enough to get a storm off as opposed to like 20-30. Supposedly it increases their regen rate too, but I'm a bit skeptical on that. o snap i didnt realise that i hope its true, if so id get that asap!!
It doesn't change the regen rate, but the templars start with 25% more mana(i.e. 62.5), so it's a nice boost halving the time needed to cast a storm for new templars.
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i think getting the +50 templar energy is a great help, whether u decide to get it earlier or later is up to you, but i ALWAYS get this upgrade
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If you research the energy upgrade for Arbiters, do they spawn with more energy as well?
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Calgary25993 Posts
Every unit spawns with 25%_max_energy.
Most (all?) units have 200 energy, so they spawn with 50.
After +50, units have 250 energy, so they spawn with 62.5.
So, in a round-a-bout way, yes, Arbiters would spawn with more energy.
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United States24753 Posts
Oh I didn't know about the extra energy at spawn. However, I'm still wondering whether or not getting the energy right away is reasonably viable, or if getting it at least a bit later on is much preferable.
For a moment I considered getting the energy upgrade before storm, but I think it's too important to have at least a couple of storms early on, so it's worth forgoing the chance to have more templar at full energy when you move out.
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I think I'd play it by ear... if i know that hydras are banging on my cannon door I'd upgrade one right after the other, but if not, I might put the energy upgrade off a little while.
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Belgium9950 Posts
On March 21 2008 03:25 Denzak wrote:
If you research the energy upgrade for Arbiters, do they spawn with more energy as well?
yeah a lot of progamers get energy first, and then statis/recall
To answer to the OP: it depends heavily on his unit composition and your position in game, but I personally never get it before my 3rd gas unless hes going really hydra heavy
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On March 21 2008 03:36 micronesia wrote:
Oh I didn't know about the extra energy at spawn. However, I'm still wondering whether or not getting the energy right away is reasonably viable, or if getting it at least a bit later on is much preferable.
For a moment I considered getting the energy upgrade before storm, but I think it's too important to have at least a couple of storms early on, so it's worth forgoing the chance to have more templar at full energy when you move out.
I highly highly doubt your first couple templars would hit 200 energy before needing a storm. There are def more situations where having storm first is a much better idea.
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United States4991 Posts
On March 21 2008 03:35 Chill wrote:
Every unit spawns with 25%_max_energy.
Most (all?) units have 200 energy, so they spawn with 50.
After +50, units have 250 energy, so they spawn with 62.5.
So, in a round-a-bout way, yes, Arbiters would spawn with more energy.
Yeah, all units start with 200 energy max unless upgraded (exception: heroes, but I'm talking about a normal melee game here) [well, broodlings are a bit different too, but their 'energy' is really a timer for life, so it doesn't count].
On March 21 2008 03:36 micronesia wrote:
Oh I didn't know about the extra energy at spawn. However, I'm still wondering whether or not getting the energy right away is reasonably viable, or if getting it at least a bit later on is much preferable.
For a moment I considered getting the energy upgrade before storm, but I think it's too important to have at least a couple of storms early on, so it's worth forgoing the chance to have more templar at full energy when you move out.
You should definitely not get energy first, and it's unlikely you will be 'wasting' energy anyway. The reason it works for Arbiters is that
<ul>
<li>Arbiters have a much higher energy requirement (100 or 150 vs 75) so the spell wouldn't be accessible so early anyway
<li>Arbiters take 10 years to make, so you're not really waiting for stasis / recall so long anyway as with HTs which build so much quicker
<li>Arbiters without spells are still useful for intimidation (as he doesn't know you haven't gotten stasis or recall)/cloak
<li>Storm is frequently time-critical in PvZ, where if you don't have it now, you're dead.
</ul>
Also even though the templar energy gets expanded to 250 max, you don't need to get the full 250 for 3 storms in a battle, only 225, which doesn't take very long to accumulate after the energy upgrade anyway.
Edit: Personally I try to get HT energy pretty much right after storm itself finishes researching.
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Hight Templars pop out of the gates with 62 energy with the energy upgrade. 12 energy doesn't seem like much but it makes them effective a lot sooner after producion. Also Templars mostly survive long enough to get 3 storms. This is especially the case when between defending cannons.
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8751 Posts
On March 21 2008 03:50 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 03:25 Denzak wrote:
If you research the energy upgrade for Arbiters, do they spawn with more energy as well? yeah a lot of progamers get energy first, and then statis/recall
This isn't exactly right because if the arbiter begins building before the energy upgrade is complete, it will spawn with 50 energy even if the energy upgrade completed while the arbiter was building. Upgrading energy can benefit the second arbiter. Also, an arbiter gains just under 50 energy in the time it take stasis to research, so no time is lost from the ability to cast your first stasis by upgrading energy first.
So the optimal setup:
1. Build arbiter and research energy upgrade as soon as tribunal finishes.
2. First Arbiter finishes.
3. A few seconds later, energy upgrade finishes. Start second arbiter and stasis upgrade.
4. Stasis finishes at the same time first arbiter reaches 100 energy.
5. Second arbiter completes and starts with 62.5 energy.
Going through that trouble will get you a 2nd stasis/recall 12.5 energy sooner.
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United States24753 Posts
So if I'm clear on this... yes, you can get the templar energy upgrade right after storm, but generally it is fine to wait and get it a minute or two later. For arbiters, follow the procedure Nony suggested unless you have a specific reason to do otherwise (such as need recall before stasis etc).
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Calgary25993 Posts
Yes, wait on Templar energy, there are more important things to spend your gas on at that point in the game.
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On March 21 2008 05:41 Chill wrote:
Yes, wait on Templar energy, there are more important things to spend your gas on at that point in the game.
Like High Templar
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United States24753 Posts
On March 21 2008 05:41 Chill wrote:
Yes, wait on Templar energy, there are more important things to spend your gas on at that point in the game.
Like... and extra templar or a couple of extra goons... or better yet, goon range? I guess it depends a lot on what the zerg is doing, as others pointed out.
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Edited because it was plain wrong.
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On March 21 2008 03:35 Chill wrote:
Every unit spawns with 25%_max_energy.
Most (all?) units have 200 energy, so they spawn with 50.
After +50, units have 250 energy, so they spawn with 62.5.
So, in a round-a-bout way, yes, Arbiters would spawn with more energy.
Just a little knit pick, but I don't think Dark Archons are like that.
Absolutely true for arbiters so that still answers the question
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8751 Posts
On March 21 2008 07:11 Zherak wrote:
If my assumption is correct, the professionals get arb energy first reflects sub-optimal play. You want to spend as much time without the energy upgrade as by any means possible, and then get the upgrade the moment you are actually going to use the energy.
This isn't right. The energy upgrade is done in advance because that's the nature of the benefit. If I get the energy upgrade before making an arbiter, then that arbiter will be 12.5 energy closer to its first spell once it finishes building. You'd only be right if the finishing of the upgrade gave +12.5 energy to every existing arbiter. But as I said earlier, the +12.5 energy is only given to units that begin to build after the energy upgrade is complete.
In fact, now that I just skimmed over your post one more time, you've just massively misunderstood how the energy upgrade works. It does not keep percentages all in tact. The only percentage that stays in tact is the starting percentage. And the two exceptions to this rule have already been mentioned (Dark Archons and units started before the upgrade has completed, which will both start with 50/250).
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I just don't see a reason to get it first........ even if you were building an Archon army before storming.
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On March 21 2008 04:50 NonY[rC] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 03:50 RaGe wrote:On March 21 2008 03:25 Denzak wrote:
If you research the energy upgrade for Arbiters, do they spawn with more energy as well? yeah a lot of progamers get energy first, and then statis/recall This isn't exactly right because if the arbiter begins building before the energy upgrade is complete, it will spawn with 50 energy even if the energy upgrade completed while the arbiter was building. Upgrading energy can benefit the second arbiter. Also, an arbiter gains just under 50 energy in the time it take stasis to research, so no time is lost from the ability to cast your first stasis by upgrading energy first. So the optimal setup: 1. Build arbiter and research energy upgrade as soon as tribunal finishes. 2. First Arbiter finishes. 3. A few seconds later, energy upgrade finishes. Start second arbiter and stasis upgrade. 4. Stasis finishes at the same time first arbiter reaches 100 energy. 5. Second arbiter completes and starts with 62.5 energy. Going through that trouble will get you a 2nd stasis/recall 12.5 energy sooner.
awesome post
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I didn't read through all the thread,sry if this was posted, but Arbiters are an exception. They are the only units that don't start with higher energy (62.5) even after their energy upgrade.
Oh, and neither Dark Archons, since they're not made in a building, but merged by 2 DTs.
Edit: now I'm confused. I was 100% certain when this topic came up a while ago I tested it out, and found that it didn't work for arbiters. Maybe I was just being lazy and checked it for the one that was being produced before my energy upgrade finished, as they do take helluva long time to produce. Hm...(would test if I had SC on this comp )
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On March 21 2008 07:35 NonY[rC] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 07:11 Zherak wrote:
If my assumption is correct, the professionals get arb energy first reflects sub-optimal play. You want to spend as much time without the energy upgrade as by any means possible, and then get the upgrade the moment you are actually going to use the energy. This isn't right. The energy upgrade is done in advance because that's the nature of the benefit. If I get the energy upgrade before making an arbiter, then that arbiter will be 12.5 energy closer to its first spell once it finishes building. You'd only be right if the finishing of the upgrade gave +12.5 energy to every existing arbiter. But as I said earlier, the +12.5 energy is only given to units that begin to build after the energy upgrade is complete. In fact, now that I just skimmed over your post one more time, you've just massively misunderstood how the energy upgrade works. It does not keep percentages all in tact. The only percentage that stays in tact is the starting percentage. And the two exceptions to this rule have already been mentioned (Dark Archons and units started before the upgrade has completed, which will both start with 50/250).
You are right, it seems.
I was fairly certain units kept the same %-mana, meaning that already finished units would have units upon energy-grades finishing. This is, however wrong, units preserve their energy-count.
Edited my OP, thanks for the correction.
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shit i didn't know about the extra energy at spawn either
on topic i'd say get it late game because with the extra money you could get another templar =/
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Wait, wait ... I thought that when you get the mana upgrade High Templars are immediately able to cast a Storm immediately after they come out?
Hmm, weird ~_~
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Calgary25993 Posts
On March 21 2008 07:31 Purind wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 03:35 Chill wrote:
Every unit spawns with 25%_max_energy.
Most (all?) units have 200 energy, so they spawn with 50.
After +50, units have 250 energy, so they spawn with 62.5.
So, in a round-a-bout way, yes, Arbiters would spawn with more energy. Just a little knit pick, but I don't think Dark Archons are like that. Absolutely true for arbiters so that still answers the question
I'm pretty sure they are.
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United States24753 Posts
On March 21 2008 07:36 illmatic wrote:
I just don't see a reason to get it first........ even if you were building an Archon army before storming.
If you knew the zerg wasn't going to attack for a little while yet, you could research energy first and then storm. This way, the cheaper upgrade is first, AND you will have your templar at 250 energy sooner (I think). But as I mentioned earlier, it's rare that you don't need storms available, so it makes more sense to get storm, and then time your energy upgrade after that.
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On March 21 2008 09:40 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 07:31 Purind wrote:On March 21 2008 03:35 Chill wrote:
Every unit spawns with 25%_max_energy.
Most (all?) units have 200 energy, so they spawn with 50.
After +50, units have 250 energy, so they spawn with 62.5.
So, in a round-a-bout way, yes, Arbiters would spawn with more energy. Just a little knit pick, but I don't think Dark Archons are like that. Absolutely true for arbiters so that still answers the question I'm pretty sure they are.
Actually, DAs spawn with 50 regardless of upgrade. Kind of weird, but it was programmed seperately as part of BW, so it makes sense for it to work differently. I just tested it.
Arbiters spawn with 50/62.
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It's a conscious balance decision.. medics spawn with 62 mana after their upgrade.
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On March 21 2008 11:13 zer0das wrote:
It's a conscious balance decision.. medics spawn with 62 mana after their upgrade.
Their spell costs only 1 mana so I'm guessing pros don't bother with upgrading Medic energy?
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United States24753 Posts
On March 21 2008 12:27 Equinox_kr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 11:13 zer0das wrote:
It's a conscious balance decision.. medics spawn with 62 mana after their upgrade. Their spell costs only 1 mana so I'm guessing pros don't bother with upgrading Medic energy?
Yeah it's pretty much never done as far as I know. The other spells are rarely used unless Boxer feels like being in pimpest plays.
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On March 21 2008 10:22 Zherak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 09:40 Chill wrote:On March 21 2008 07:31 Purind wrote:On March 21 2008 03:35 Chill wrote:
Every unit spawns with 25%_max_energy.
Most (all?) units have 200 energy, so they spawn with 50.
After +50, units have 250 energy, so they spawn with 62.5.
So, in a round-a-bout way, yes, Arbiters would spawn with more energy. Just a little knit pick, but I don't think Dark Archons are like that. Absolutely true for arbiters so that still answers the question I'm pretty sure they are. Actually, DAs spawn with 50 regardless of upgrade. Kind of weird, but it was programmed seperately as part of BW, so it makes sense for it to work differently. I just tested it. Arbiters spawn with 50/62.
Okay well, medics were programmed separately for BW, so what about them? Are they affected?
Edit: Lol already mentioned ;(
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Belgium9950 Posts
On March 21 2008 04:50 NonY[rC] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 03:50 RaGe wrote:On March 21 2008 03:25 Denzak wrote:
If you research the energy upgrade for Arbiters, do they spawn with more energy as well? yeah a lot of progamers get energy first, and then statis/recall This isn't exactly right because if the arbiter begins building before the energy upgrade is complete, it will spawn with 50 energy even if the energy upgrade completed while the arbiter was building. Upgrading energy can benefit the second arbiter. Also, an arbiter gains just under 50 energy in the time it take stasis to research, so no time is lost from the ability to cast your first stasis by upgrading energy first. So the optimal setup: 1. Build arbiter and research energy upgrade as soon as tribunal finishes. 2. First Arbiter finishes. 3. A few seconds later, energy upgrade finishes. Start second arbiter and stasis upgrade. 4. Stasis finishes at the same time first arbiter reaches 100 energy. 5. Second arbiter completes and starts with 62.5 energy. Going through that trouble will get you a 2nd stasis/recall 12.5 energy sooner.
uhm how is my post not right then? I say progamers get energy first because they'll never reach 100 energy for statis by the time its done, you say its wrong, and then repeat what I said? ^^
edit: oh i think you assumed i thought that if the upgrade is done when the arb was already building, the arb came out with more?
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8751 Posts
Yeah. Just a nuance. You didn't say anything technically wrong but it might have been a little ambiguous so I was just clearing it up.
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thanks nony, i kinda knew that arbs/temps spawn with more energy when you upgrade it and i always did upgrade temp energy after storm but from now on when i tech arbs ill do it as you described
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So Nony how would you time it if you had dual stargates? Would you just do it the same but build two arbs at a time?
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It's actually most beneficial to get arbiter energy first. Energy upgrade takes 2-3 seconds longer than arbiter build time, so you get energy, then 3 seconds later build your first arbiter. It will come out with 62.5 energy, whereas if you built it exactly when you started energy research, it will have 53-54 (50+3~4 from the 3 seconds). It's amazing what you learn from playing ffas on bgh.
Although, if the most important issue is your SECOND stasis, then you start the arbiter first (assuming you're going to have the second one queued before the first finishes - obviously it's no faster if there's more than a 3 second gap between building the 1st and 2nd arb). In a real game I can never time the gas perfectly to have absolutely NO gap in arbiter production - usually I have to save up a hundred or two once I notice the 1st arbiter finish. There's also the issue of the upgrade's cost, but I assume in 95% of cases when you have enough for arbiters, the 150/150 is worth the faster spells of each arbiter, and the ability to recall then stasis with a single arbiter.
And on the original topic, I personally try to get templar energy unless they're doing a early all-in 3-4 hatch hydra push vs an FE, when it will be too late for the upgrade to finish, and having another 1-2 temps out early is vital. I usually time it when you'd have enough zealots to hold off his attack beyond your cannons, but not enough to push him (maybe a little before you try to take another expo). But I'm a newb, so this is just an example so my post is not completely off the original topic.
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Ive Always known this but for some reason when I am playing I never fucking research it T_T
I always forget me noob
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EPT
