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Belgium8305 Posts
On November 08 2007 01:46 GongKyuckTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 10:35 vGl-CoW wrote:
I'm a fairly experienced 2v2 Z player. Show nested quote +TZ vs PZ: The main thing here is: 9 pool. Why? it will be impossible for the other Z to get a hatch on his ramp. He will be forced to hatch in main, making him really vulnerable to m&m attacks. If he wants to live, he's pretty much going to have to invest heavily into sunks, which will be a heavy hit to his eco.This will allow your ally to be ahead in terms of tech, or at least be on even footing. this is just lol do u play public 2v2 or some skilled z/p team ? 9pool dies 90% times vs z/p u 9p other z 9p u fight on middle on other side p rushing terran or containing him with cannons 10 12 gate 21pylon 21 forge toss save 450 minerals for 3 cannons and terr blocked until he got tenk, and if he doesnt know that cannons are infront than it's gg u will be fucked soon 9 zeal + 16 lings + 2 or 3 drones for offensive sunkens will rape you 90% times except u made +5/6 sunken but then u have like 4 or 5 drones left ..
I play for TheDwarf in BWCL Div. 1 but hey, thanks for acting like I'm completely wrong. This is just lol!
The tactic you're describing here is one I have come across maybe twice in thousands of games, so that alone should be saying a lot.
While I agree PZ has the upper hand in TZ vs PZ, it's downright ridiculous to state that a 9 pool on the TZ side is a "90% loss".
You're making it seem like the other Z completely ties you up, which isn't the case. You can get a sunk in your main and keep some fresh lings there while you help out your T ally should he be having trouble with P's cheesy as hell tactic. Decent micro should mob that stuff right up. Take out the probe, distract zeals, take out warping cannons, whatever.
You're the kind of player that likes to keep everything cheesy and low eco. I'd rather go for consistency.
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On November 08 2007 01:46 GongKyuckTerran wrote:
this is just lol
do u play public 2v2 or some skilled z/p team ?
9pool dies 90% times vs z/p
u 9p other z 9p u fight on middle
on other side p rushing terran or containing him with cannons
this is wrong. Why would you fight enemy lings in the middle? This is an inefficient waste of your lings. As a few others have stated in this thread, if P is zealot rushing your parter, he won't have any base defense; zealots are too slow to simultaneously attack and defend the protoss base. The solution then isn't to engage enemy lings in the middle; instead, go rape protoss with your speedlings as soon as he moves out. This is even more lol if he tries to cannon contain, as he will have to delay zealots to get forge + cannons in the early game.
10 12 gate 21pylon 21 forge toss save 450 minerals for 3 cannons and terr blocked until he got tenk, and if he doesnt know that cannons are infront than it's gg
sorry, but at the top levels of 2v2 play, cannon-contain builds are suicide. Go download the ICCup 2v2 league replay packs and see if toss ever goes offensive cannons even once.
u will be fucked soon 9 zeal + 16 lings + 2 or 3 drones for offensive sunkens will rape you 90% times except u made +5/6 sunken but then u have like 4 or 5 drones left ..
yes this is true, 9pool build won't be able to survive that attack, but that's what your ally is for. You'll have to counter with appropriate teamwork and micro. Enemy P won't be able to send 9 zealots to help kill you while simultaneously containing your partner, it just won't happen.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
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On November 08 2007 02:04 IntoTheWow wrote:
Gong by the time that attack you mention comes to you, you can sunk at ramp. How are they going to sunk you.
Your second overlord goes to the terran ALL GAMES to check out sutff like cannons and DTs. I don't see how a terran can get cannoned.
PZ has a clear advantage over TZ imo, but i don't see why 9 pool is not a good opening.
if z who is ally with t goes 9 pool he cant hat ramp vs z 9p + dual gate
there is no chance that hat will survive zeal+ling fight on ramp 
even on arcadia where are positions so far away he cant hat ramp ..
yes overlord going to terran and will be placed 90% time on ramp
but good toss wont cannon t bellow ramp, he will check where is ov and place cannons out of terr vision
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http://hosted.filefront.com/RizLA2901/
i upload two replays
1st is mondi/kyopo vs na)girl nateam zt vs zp
u will see what happen when u hat ramp vs z 9p + dual gate
mondi goes 11 or 12 p
2nd is na)girl + nateam vs kanibal + ninja(playerone playertwo) zp vs zt
this is 2v2 iccup league replay and wtf ?
if this isnt high level teamplay then i dont know what it is :p
vGl-CoW offensive cannons 2v2 isnt cheese that is strategy like any other in z+p
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I'm not the greatest 2:2 player but I have some experience with every match up in 2:2.
TZvsZP using bio.. I wouldn't recommend.
I've tried the whole 'm&m' theme as terran with countless builds anywhere from fast+1/+1 upgrades, 3 barracks, 4 barracks, 5 barracks... anyways what I've come to find is that bio isn't the best choice against a PZ team especially like you said, HonkHonkBeep, if the zerg opponent matches your ally in lings. However, with superior control and team work you could manage to pick off of the lings while staying out of range of the goons. This would allow you to have minimum loses while eliminating the opponent zerg's forces (once again this would only work if you are superior in control+micro). The HARDEST part of TZvZP in my experience would be if the zerg opponent matches my ally in lings from the start and my ally is contained at his ramp. This would put me into a position where I'd have to take on ranged 3 gate goons by myself with bio, which really doesn't work out too well. The only option there is usually is taking it to mid game and breaking out with tanks. But once again if the P is superior to you, you will fail alone more than likely. And if your ally is out-muta'd by the zerg, there's not much you can do to help being contained yourself. Late game TZ vs ZP if you m&m there is a low chance of success if your ally is matched by the zerg and you need to take on the protoss who would definitely have storm by this time.
And now for TZvsPZ using mech..
This really depends on the opponents build. I will always open with a 2 fact build, when my first factory completes I make 1 vulture (with my ally's 9 pool [sometimes 9 pool]). If the zerg hatched first for whatever reason (if it is at their cliff, we use vulture to break their ramp) or if its in their main we would simply force them the sunken through vulture/ling harass.
More commonly however I find that zerg with 12 or 9 pool. If this happens (and protoss is 1 gate core) my ally would more times than not not heavily engage with the other zerg, maybe picking off a ling or two with micro but not wasting lings unless clearly having a unit advantage. Then with my first vulture I would seek out the opponent zerg's force and cut them off from assisting the protoss while my ally hits them. After my first factory completes I throw down an armory and then I usually follow with 1 of 2 things: throw down the 3rd factory only having made 1 vulture, OR pump vultures while armory is completing and later throw down the 3rd factory if needed. From there generally I proceed to mass gols with +1 weap first followed by armor. Starport is also an option for gol drops which generally work well, however I'm more fond of the additional macro from the 3rd factory.
I'm really getting too detailed with this so my apologies, but in short, the key for TZ vs PZ is teamwork (no duh Star.Sense its 2:2), basically the first vulture I make is the most important unit of the game. The vulture alone has the power to cut off the zerg from assisting the protoss, and it also has the potential to break the protoss ramp. Depending on what I do with the vulture and how successful I am with it can shape a lot of the game. But it requires superb micro and concentration to not only keep the vulture alive but to actually inflict damage with it. The vulture is what allows me to get 3 factory gols immediately after which is vital to my style of play.
What I've said in that large chunk of text is all subject to change in the actual game depending on the opponents' builds etc..
TZvsTZ
Generally I open with the same build as described above with 1 vulture + lings to pressure the zerg and hopefully take out a few drones. Then I follow up with goliaths (I can simply mass goliaths without problem if the opponent terran is producing vultures w or w/o mines, goliaths, or m&m) If I see that the terran is making tanks somewhat early, I then adjust my build to getting 1 machine shop and making a few tanks myself. Play after this point is pretty much self explanatory and too circumstantial to explain play by play, in short your ally needs to match the zerg opponent in muta, and you need to out mass the terran, or out tank them (if they are m&m its not as important to tank because gols alone will rip m&m apart with +1/+1 upgrades).
If the Terran does m&m instead of mech, I could also m&m, using a build such as a 2 barracks acad opening followed by 2 ebays +1/+1 upgrades then throw down 3 more barracks. With this build most of the time I catch the terran with their pants down as I roll over them in macro, regardless as to if they have tanks or not.
Well, this is all just how I play (generally) and most of which I described depends on the opponents' builds and what's happening in the game. If you have more specific questions I could try to answer them but I just hope that what I've said helps in some way 
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Calgary25998 Posts
Why would you Hatch your ramp vs ZP? You need to against ZT because Marines are ranged, by Zealots aren't...
How is Protoss going to have enough units to defend quick offensive Cannons from Terran, as well as his main from Zerg? Seems impossible...
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On November 08 2007 07:08 Chill wrote:
How is Protoss going to have enough units to defend quick offensive Cannons from Terran, as well as his main from Zerg? Seems impossible...
obivously p wouldnt go offensive cannons if his z ally going any build except 9 pool speedling ...
and those offensive cannons isnt allin thing,it's just thing to stop terran join zerg army to take map control
i am not telling you to do this every game,just stating that 9p speedling is bad build by z/t team
i rather prefer overpool with early or late gas depends on positions and protoss openings
from what i saw oov and july had nice combo overpool + dual fact on vampire out massing zerg and fast taking map control into big attack no matter z or p
and z/t team zerg options for 9 pool speedling and he got 9/9 gated bellow ramp or at natural mineral line and 5 pool by other zerg with two drones going for offensive sunk,and he send overlord in other direction wtf now ?
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On November 07 2007 16:00 Bond(i2) wrote:
Yeah, don't let your partner go 12 hat 11 pool ever plz. if one of your opponents goes 9 pool, your partner is fucked, let alone dual 9 pool. i think the best build is 12 pool 12 hat with sunk -> tech or lings
Yea im sorry i totally messed the strat up it IS 12 pool 11hatch----> sunk THEN gas. my bad.
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vs z/p
zerg opens 12 pool, terran can either go for vultures or marine medic.
if vultures:
zerg opens 12 pool, gas, hatch. hatch and pool are placed to create a little pocket for sunkens. research ling speed then go lair. don't ramp hatch, because its flat out impossible to hold if the z/p team are aggressive. zerg is only going to have as many lings as the enemy zerg will, and when you factor zealots in, it should be obvious why you can't hold it.
terran walls in or builds tight and goes for 2 fact. you need to be weary of what your opponents are doing. if they're massing units then zerg will need to sunken appropriately. the less defence you build as zerg, the better. its much more beneficial to have to pull off drones to defend than to have them to decide that its not worth it then walk off. pressure on zerg will ease off generally as soon as terran gets his vultures out. go mine someone in and attack the other. make sure that both ramps are secure before attacking one. you definitely don't want someone getting away with the huge tech/eco boost of not having to spend the 600 or so minerals on defending himself, plus you can kill them if they don't.
when you move out with vultures, you'll gain a temporary map control, which terran can use to expand. zerg should keep massing mutaling until he gets a window to expand.
make sure terran switches to goliath in time with the opposing zerg's spire. if your zerg and your opponents start their lair at the same time then you can use your ally's spire as an indicator of when you need to.
if you want marine/med:
zerg plays the same, terran goes 2 rax marine med into expansion as you move out. mnm lings has quite a bit of fire power, so a lot of the time you find that you can force your way up ramps at this period if z/p wasted units trying to break zerg unsuccessfully. as with before make sure both of your opponents have enough static defence to hold you off. After you get your exp up, you need to increase your rax count but also add a few facts for tanks/mines to deal with templar tech thats going to come soon.
if zerg doesn't ramp hatch against either builds, theyre more or less dead as soon as terran moves out. if they don't ruin their economy coating their base with sunken colonies then you can go ahead and cripple them. if they do some expansion build, its much more helpful to have been teching, as you can put on some good pressure. if not then youre just going to have to deal with 2 gas muta harass fairly soon, which isn't very fun to deal with stuck in one base.
vs z/t
zerg 9pools, terran 2 fact vultures. make sure 2nd hatch goes at your ramp, but try to prevent them from getting a ramp hatch up. mass speedlings and vults and try to kill someone. nothing else to it. the team with better team work and control will win this. if terran does some weird wraith build that you guys are talking about, it pretty much means he has no other units and makes it that much easier to kill somebody.
vs z/z
zerg 12 pools, gas, hatch placed in such a way to create a pocket for sunkens. zerg has to make sure his sunkens will cover all of his creep to prevent sunken rushes. terran builds tight and goes for 3 rax marine med. zerg is going to be taking hits and trying to survive until terran can move out with a ball and start killing everyone. keep mining gas as zerg, even if your base is filled with sunkens/spores and you havent had a chance to start your spire/lair. once terran is out you'll get a chance to work your economy a bit and get tech up then you'll have plenty of gas for mutas.
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Thanks SMB, you've got great advice, I noticed you posted in the other threads I looked at and was hoping you'd post in here.
A little update, my ally and I have decided after trying some of the things here that my zerg is just too much better than his, while his P is just so much better than his Z, that we've decided to swap to PZ and stick with it because we just do so much better that way. P just seems to have a much easier time than T in PZ as opposed to TZ.
However these posts were not a waste, thanks for giving us some pointers, they're still good things to know to anticipate if we play PZ vs TZ and etc
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