EPTObviously it's a lot easier if they are 2 gating as well, because if they take my gas early it's not like they can tech that much faster than me anyway. But if they go a gate gas zealot build, I usually cannot break through with my zealots and eventually find myself way behind him in tech.
[H] PvP gas stolen when 2 gating
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Obviously it's a lot easier if they are 2 gating as well, because if they take my gas early it's not like they can tech that much faster than me anyway. But if they go a gate gas zealot build, I usually cannot break through with my zealots and eventually find myself way behind him in tech. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
 This is something that bothers me as well, though. I haven't seen as many 2gates recently in PvP. Seems more "solved" with improved defensive micro of probes and such. | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
If he 2 gates too, just break the gas, no big deal. He lost 100 minerals, and you can break it pretty fast. He wont be farther ahead, cuz he lost those minerals to get the tech a little bit earlier. Just dont waste your zealot force fighting on his ramp vs zealots/goon (on the back). | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On September 11 2007 12:21 GrandInquisitor wrote: This is the single biggest reason I don't 2 gate PvP. I never know what to do - hope that my all-out zealot attack works? Immediately stop my attack and use all my zealots to kill his assim, thereby allowing him to tech fast on me? A combination of both? Obviously it's a lot easier if they are 2 gating as well, because if they take my gas early it's not like they can tech that much faster than me anyway. But if they go a gate gas zealot build, I usually cannot break through with my zealots and eventually find myself way behind him in tech. If its a map without a ramp, it seems to me that any 1 gater would be very hard pressed to both defend and o gas. Even with a ramp, I think the difficult part of it is judging when you can do damage and when you can't. If you continue on zealot pumping for too long when its obvious he can defend, then he will o gas you and make you pay. If you can still do damage when he o gassed, that should have been the tipping point. | ||
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TehKris
Norway322 Posts
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Kassios
France1424 Posts
edit : i've got a rep from a friend, same bo as me: replay | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
But generally in PvP you ARE doing damage to him because you made 2 gate for a purpose (I hope). And teching half a minute after him isn't fatal - you just have to judge if it's better sending your 2 last zealots to his base or getting your gas. It's different in every game, you just have to get the feeling of it. But yeah, rep so we can analyze? | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
When I refer to hard to break through, I just refer to the fact that I never seem to have that many more zealots than he does, or enough to overcome the fact that I have to walk all the way across the map and still outnumber him. I guess this is more of a problem with my 2gating than anything else, though. | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
How is your zeal micro? | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
On September 12 2007 01:06 GrandInquisitor wrote: I don't have a rep on me, since I haven't 2gated in a long long time. I just thought of it while browsing TL. When I refer to hard to break through, I just refer to the fact that I never seem to have that many more zealots than he does, or enough to overcome the fact that I have to walk all the way across the map and still outnumber him. I guess this is more of a problem with my 2gating than anything else, though. It's more a patience problem. You get more zealots later really when your extra gate kicks in because you are making twice as many units as he is so at first the difference is negligble, sometimes he gets his first 3 units quicker than you. If you give it another couple rotations though BEFORE his tech really kicks in you can overpower and do damage. When I go fast goon range I always make sure to attack the second it is finished because I've made a point in my build order to go fast range and I have to take advantage of that because I've sacraficed something else to do that. You really have to know your build and know why you are doing it so you can adapt it to your need. | ||
KwarK
United States43136 Posts
If they've gone 2 gate you expo and kill the gas. Keep a probe at their nat and go core and forge. If they push out with a hundred zees you lay 2 shield batteries at your nat and win that way. If they've stopped making zees on their 2 gate early and gone goons then you'll need a load of cannons for the goons. You go pure goon the moment core is finished and lay about 6 gates. Pure macro, no offence because holding that FE will win you the game. Remember pylons on the shuttle routes and a cannon at the nat. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
I also sense a timing problem if he pushes out with goon/zeal early before your forge kicks in. You've spent 400 on nexus, 150 on forge, so you'll be behind in unit count without cannons for some time. He might also get some fast reaver and just crack your cannoned natural without ever taking a cannon shot. | ||
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KwarK
United States43136 Posts
He's spent 100 on assimilator, 200 on a core, 150 on probes getting gas, 150 on range, there are 2-4 units difference because of travel time. I think vs mass zee with a few goon you're safe. A shield battery for 100 makes a huge difference in early game zee wars. If he goes 2 gate, only makes 3 zee and then stops production and goes into fast mass goon your zees should buy enough time for you to counter with cannons provided you have a probe at his ramp scouting him the moment he leaves his main. But you're right, with decent micro it'd be a good counter to a fast expo. Fortunately this is a rather unlikely build as going 2 gate and then not making any units is a little counterintuitive. Obviously it is even more unlikely he'll do this if he doesn't know you're expoing so if possible kill the scout probes. He's not going to get a reaver quickly while going 2 gate mass goon. That build doesn't exist in low money. Ideally you don't want to make more than 1 cannon to guard vs darks. But if he does come out with mass goon then you will have a bunch of zees, a few goons and a much slower range. Clearly you need something with range equal to his goons to buy time for your macro to kick in. Like cannons. If he's waiting for a reaver then you end up making 1 cannon at your nat, laying down 6 gateways and macroing your ass off. Then you overrun him. You're right, that if they could somehow force cannons with a massgoon and go fast reaver they'd win. Fortunately they can only do one of them so provided you have a probe at their nat to scout which it is you can counter appropriately. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
1 cannon seems somewhat risky vs DT - he can just force it's kill with goons and here you are without detection with a DT in base. Even if he loses all of his goons, he'll be having a DT guarding his choke so you won't counter and if he has more than one, he gets a free expo right away at the same time killing yours. Cannon detection is very vulnerable to committent DT strikes - it will do enough if it's one DT, but if he manages to unload a shuttle of four in your main, that cannon will evaporate faster than your goons reach it. You don't have observers and will have to rely on pylons only in scouting drops. May work on Blitz, but on many other maps you won't have enough time to react. All of this is a humble opinion ofc, my PvP is still far from perfect. BTW, how are you going to kill the scouting probe if your build doesn't have a single goon before forge/FE/core? It can run from zealots indefinetely. | ||
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KwarK
United States43136 Posts
As for the other situations, it's all far too situational to apply absolute rules. However a counter expo should not worry you. That is actually the best situation (other than him using mass scouts). When they equalise in expos they are equal in income, but not in total worth. You will have mined more than them and therefore will have the larger army. This translates to map control and therefore more expos. If they take their own expo, guarded by darks, as soon as they scout yours you will still have a decisive advantage. | ||
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noojOh
United States755 Posts
and my opponent does the gas on me i just go and kill as many probes as possible because if u think about it, he just wasted 100 minerals its really effective i usually get like 10+ probes with micro and the game usually ends there or im way too far ahead now for him to win | ||
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tiffany
3664 Posts
On September 12 2007 11:08 noojOh wrote: when i do two gate and my opponent does the gas on me i just go and kill as many probes as possible because if u think about it, he just wasted 100 minerals its really effective i usually get like 10+ probes with micro and the game usually ends there or im way too far ahead now for him to win and how might you suggest we go about performing this miracle of miracles | ||
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noobienoob
United States1173 Posts
On September 12 2007 15:19 tiffany wrote: and how might you suggest we go about performing this miracle of miracles assuming you scouted, you highlight your zealots, press a, and move your cursor over his base and left click; note that this can be a lot more effective if you actually try to control your zealots. edit: he has a point, if you went two gates and he took your gas, that's one less zealot you have to worry about and usually you can break his ramp and get to some probes before he gets goons out. of course, this depends on the map, and starting positions, on how effective it can be. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On maps like Longinus two gate-> expo/cannon is a REALLY good build. Doesn't matter if he stole gas, he just wasted 100 mins woohoo. | ||
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