|
Everyone else seems to have focused on 2, so I'm going to focus on "1) what did I definitely do wrong before I killed his dt that would have set me up better for my counter". That is, build order, basically. Thats what I'm best at anyway.
Your build plan, that is, 2zeal to core to 2nd gate to range to robo is perfectly fine. Though, I suppose robo before 2nd gate is the safer bet overall since you lost your scout early, and it gives you the option for faster reaver. No matter, I don't care to speculate; I'll focus this game and the build plan used. Some catches in how you carried the build plan out though. Not building probes as consistently as possible (see build order bellow). Suff like building 2nd pylon far away, yes a strategic decision, but did not help you at all. Some more probably like which probes grabbed to build stuff, etc.
My build order for this build plan (same position, scouted off 8p)
8p,10gate,12assim,13p,14z, 17z, 20core, 22Gate+p, 23goon, 26range, 28gg, 32p, 33robo, 35gg, 39p, gg, 45observetory+p, gg+ob... Assuming no probe losses, if probe loss just build 1psi earlier.
To review: at 6:14 you have 52psi (including lost z/probe), 7g, 2z, 1goon just started(mins pile up a bit because of pylon timing and you have to deal with dts), ob half done. I have 54psi, 7goon, 2z, 2 goon 2/3 done, ob finished. So, better macro, and would only have lost 1-2 units at the worst, while you lost 2z/goon/5probes/mining time/let mins pile up. My unit numbers (~9g/2z compared to your ~7g vs. his 3z/1-3goon/1-3cannon/2ht no storm) would probably have been enough to take down his expo right there with a counter attack. Or just outmacro him later on as he was not that impressive.
Oh and as far as I remember about testie vs bisu it was not his build response that did anything much for him, but that he won the main battle 15 min in when they were both 200/200 by a lot and it was downhill from there.
edit - I Don't mind looking a pvp reps and helping even though I dont even play or vist here often anymore, so if you like to send me one later or would like a build order pm. And yea that b.o is more or less as good as its going to get, besides some changes like 21core, which I may prefer, but other than stuff like that you'd have to change the plan...
|
Nice thread. PvP is my worst mu and I learned a ton just from reading the 3-4 nony posts. Thanks
|
For me reaver builds can work against storms by combining tactical drops, and using them in attacks. With good micro you can avoid being slauughtered with storms. Unfrotunately. my micro isnt always good enouigh to do this but mmy apm is 90-110 so...
I also like the dt drop idea other have poted, i havent tested it though.
|
United States24767 Posts
I also think using dt drop as a response is not a good idea. The only way you could get the dt fast enough would be if you somehow saw early evidence he was going for dt, and if you saw it he probably knows you did and will prepare accordingly. Maybe it would be a nice surprise vs a player that knows you normally don't do that but w/e.
Knickknack, your build seems more optimized, as well as error free (at least by comparison). However, I want to try doing the robo before the second gate. Also I noticed in bisu vs testie it did seem like that big battle was critical. Honestly, it always seemed like testie was doing better until it turned out that bisu was ahead haha.
|
United States43805 Posts
On August 05 2007 08:23 EmS.Radagast wrote:I second that dt drop will basically auto kill his main nexus, unless he really sees it coming. 2 cannons will not save him, just drop 2 dts on top of each cannon with some good shuttle micro and his nexus will soon be on the way to destruction
This is a common misconception which leads to me being called a maphacker on ICC because I make cannons in my main. Dt drop is worn out, it won't get anyone who knows it's coming which is pretty much anyone worth playing. They will know you're not massing because of the scout probe and will therefore have goons at their main nexus in antireaver positions and cannons in case of dark. Thus the dropping dark on top of cannon is a surefire way to get the shuttle shot down and the darks will be extremely outgunned.
|
MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On August 05 2007 03:05 Naib wrote:
If you don't fuck up, you can have 2 observers (1 scouting / with your attack army, 1 defending, in case he wants to run in when you leave your base) + 2 gate robo with 2 reavers and a shuttle attacking just in time before he gets his storm, or in the worst case, he gets 2 storms and has no units. Piece of cake to counter if you are not put behind too much by his DT's. As for 3 gate goon - it's crap against this, he'll get cannon + zeal and hold you while he techs to storm, from then on, you're screwed. Im starting to think I play a different game than the rest of you or something... 2 reavers+shuttle+2observers before he has storm? really? you must be playing with an insanely early robotics, in my experience you'll have plenty of storms before any type of reaver attack.
imo the best play against dt->xpo is to
1) expand yourself asap
2) pressure with goons to make him build more cannons (but still not risking to get stabbed by dts so keep 2goons+2nd observer at your ramp)
3) tech to archives and dt drop
the dt drop isnt an instant game win or something like that, it's to make him build cannons in main and get his robotics in time. also it lets you catch up in tech (you dont want to play midgame with goon/reaver when he has storm). then you can follow that by storm drops aswell etc.
as I see it playing dt isnt a gamble build putting you at a disadvantage if the opponent went observers, the obs player'll have a unit advantage but the dt player'll have a tech advantage and possibly an eco advantage.
|
8751 Posts
On August 06 2007 09:05 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote:
the dt drop isnt an instant game win or something like that, it's to make him build cannons in main and get his robotics in time. also it lets you catch up in tech (you dont want to play midgame with goon/reaver when he has storm). then you can follow that by storm drops aswell etc.
Going dt drop doesn't make him get cannons in main or earlier robotics... He's not in a position to scout your build, so he doesn't scout your DT drop and then respond to it. Instead, he's blind, and he is forced to get cannons in main and robo just because there's a chance you will DT drop. If you think he's going to cannon and robo, then actually doing the DT drop is not beneficial to you. The best situation is to force him to defend against a DT drop but to not be doing a DT drop.
So basically, whether or not you are actually doing a DT drop isn't what makes him build cannons in main. The only thing making him do that is that he knows there is a chance you can DT drop.
But remember that you should have an observer, so you can just go and look to see if he has defence against a DT drop. Check right when your archives finishes and you can decide between DT or HT + storm.
I really prefer the storm drop. The minerals you save on dropping 2 HT instead of 4 DT (or a combo of DT and zealot) will buy you a nexus, or 2-3 gateways (if you want to power off 2 nexus). Put your shuttle right outside his main and your goons right outside his nat. Send your shuttle in, and pump your goons in and out. It'll pretty much guarantee that he won't run away his probes in time.
|
MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
wrote that kinda poorly.. I mean if you dont tech to archives you can let him get away with not doing those things in time, and it's not like you should suicide drop your dts once u've seen him build cannons...
|
United States24767 Posts
There would be no reason to even load the dts into a shuttle since your observer would scout cannons and you can cancel dt and go with ht+storm + nexus/or/gateways instead.
Edit: But I guess getting the archives early doesn't hurt too much anyway, so you keep the opportunity in case he gets greedy.
|
I'm curious about what Aphelion said. Aphelion said that using your reavers to fly in his base and disrupt mining and/or just cause some havoc in general will probably make the other Protoss move some (or maybe all if your lucky) in to his main to deal with your harass. While he does this, you can be expanding and such or fly back to the choke and attack while some of his units aren't ready for your attack.
I'd like someone to elaborate on that since that wasn't really discussed in later posts. Logically, to me this seems like the best counter since he has to deal with your harass and can either even up the economic advantage he gained with the fast expo as opposed to your later expansion, or even maybe break his choke completely. My questions are:
1 ) Do you run the risk of the Protoss just attacking you while your in his base with the reavers? You wouldn't have your reavers there to help your goons at his choke, so you could maybe lose a lot of units?
2 ) If you are going to harass with the reavers and possibly try to disarray his troops, than attack; should you wait until your second observer is done to prevent a dt stab?
3 ) With moderate harassing (couple probes maybe, hurt some buildings and units), do you think it would be wise to take a third base quickly?
|
1) He can't really attack you because at this point [if you did a normal 2 Gate Goon --> Obs/Reaver build and He did a normal dt --> expo] and before you had stopped the DT from doing alot of damage so when you attack with your first reaver then He really wouldn't have alot of units. He should have 4-5 Cannons and 3-4 Temps and choke and maybe 3-4 goons. He's afraid your going to attack his choke with mass goons and He has no obs to see where your army is or anything like that. If you attack him with 1-2 Reavers in the main...how can he attack you because at that point his army is for defending. Its inferior to you because he just expoed/only has cannons and a few units and 3-4 temps. Thats his army till he adds 3-4 gates [btw he won't even have goon range at this point].
2) You can start harassing with your reaver right away because once he expos he is at his weakest. Then when you get the 2nd ob you can move out with your army and leave 2 goons + ob near your nat [by the ramp].
3) With a couple of probes [meaning 5-10] + 2-3 goons then I'd say no. You should be in the lead then because I am guessing after or once you saw dts you expoed in your nat right away and didn't have to make cannons and stuff. This really depends on what you kill. If you did moderate harass and you think you have a slight economic and army advantage then actually taking a third base quiet early is a gamble. If he doesn't move out soon then its good for you because once that base is established with cannons and stuff and mining then you will have an advantage but if you harassed moderately took that third base [added cannons] so you spend say about 900 minerals and he decided to move out and attack then for that 2-3 mins he would have the window to take down that expo or destroy your army [his nat was faster then your nat].
I am not that good player but I am trying to reply to this as best as possible.
|
I have had some success with:
A: DT rush -> Cannon-Exp
B: 2gate goon -> Observer
If A is doing the very Cannon/Zealot-intensive FE, you build one Shuttle and ferry all your Dragoons into his main. Works like a charm on Longinus, for instance.
|
8751 Posts
On January 23 2008 15:17 Salv wrote:
I'm curious about what Aphelion said. Aphelion said that using your reavers to fly in his base and disrupt mining and/or just cause some havoc in general will probably make the other Protoss move some (or maybe all if your lucky) in to his main to deal with your harass. While he does this, you can be expanding and such or fly back to the choke and attack while some of his units aren't ready for your attack.
I'd like someone to elaborate on that since that wasn't really discussed in later posts. Logically, to me this seems like the best counter since he has to deal with your harass and can either even up the economic advantage he gained with the fast expo as opposed to your later expansion, or even maybe break his choke completely. My questions are:
1 ) Do you run the risk of the Protoss just attacking you while your in his base with the reavers? You wouldn't have your reavers there to help your goons at his choke, so you could maybe lose a lot of units?
2 ) If you are going to harass with the reavers and possibly try to disarray his troops, than attack; should you wait until your second observer is done to prevent a dt stab?
3 ) With moderate harassing (couple probes maybe, hurt some buildings and units), do you think it would be wise to take a third base quickly?
1) Your opponent should barely have any units. He'll have the few goons and zealots he built before his archives finished, he'll have maybe a DT or 2 still surviving, and he'll have 3-4 HT. He definitely won't have an army that can go on offense. He's relying on cannon/storm combo so he can't counter. It's possible that if your goons are in a clump outside his base, he could land a few storms while you're not looking.
2) Yes you should probably wait for a 2nd observer and leave it with a goon in your mineral line. But really the best answer is just to make sure you have all his DT's accounted for in whatever way you see fit. I have skipped having DT defense in some games because I felt confident that he wouldn't send one in, but honestly there is no way to be sure.
3) In some cases, you can indeed take a third base quickly. Find the replay of the Blitz X game of Bisu vs Testie that I talked about earlier in this thread.
I don't think that reaver harrass while fishing for a possibility to bust his choke is the best thing. If you cut dragoons to make your 2nd nexus and pump probes non-stop, then I don't see how you'll have enough dragoons. But if you don't cut dragoons, you are doing an all-in play when you don't have to. I think doing reaver harrass is a good idea, and you should keep in mind that he might weaken his choke defense if your reaver harrass is going really well, but it's not something I'd ever count on. Your opponent should have enough HT energy to cast 3-4 storms and that means he is favored to defend. When I practiced PvP on Blitz X with Testie, and Testie was doing the DT expo build every game, I tried doing speed shuttle builds that were dedicated to give me the best opportunity to harrass his build, and ultimately I failed. The person with the reaver and the shuttle has a much more difficult task and is risking much more while doing it.
|
I myself would skip observers. It is tempting to tech up on them, but they are expensive to do that with.
I would do 1-2 gates, with forge, skip observers, and gradually upgrade from zealot speed, up to reavers, maybe a few dragoons in the mix, but photons don't cost gas. Your zealots and photons can do pretty good against reaves I would think, dt's dropped from shuttles are a threat without zealots nearby, and basically pawn dt's unless in bulk. However, if you stay on the offence, I would think you would be fine.
Forseen Con's:
As far as HT's, you could probably send a few zealots in to have them running... or hopefully dieing.
Air is a great threat. A good gradual zealot attack might be your last chance on that occasion.
|
United States24767 Posts
On January 25 2008 10:36 GeneralZap wrote:
I myself would skip observers. It is tempting to tech up on them, but they are expensive to do that with. You don't want to skip observers.
I would do 1-2 gates, with forge, skip observers, and gradually upgrade from zealot speed, up to reavers, maybe a few dragoons in the mix, but photons don't cost gas.
Try that vs any of the people giving advice in this thread, it will probably become clear why that won't work. Your zealots and photons can do pretty good against reaves I would think, dt's dropped from shuttles are a threat without zealots nearby, and basically pawn dt's unless in bulk. However, if you stay on the offence, I would think you would be fine.
Forseen Con's:
As far as HT's, you could probably send a few zealots in to have them running... or hopefully dieing.
Air is a great threat. A good gradual zealot attack might be your last chance on that occasion.
Uh what.
|
yikes, that should possibly earn a strat-forum ban...
One general comment is that you should always try and counter immediately hoping you can kill his cannons and dodge his storm well enough. Even if you don't think you can break his defense you can force him to make more cannons than he needs and it can be intimidating having an army sitting outside his base that could attack at any time.
Always be sure you have an obs at home of course and i'd suggest keeping a goon too unless you're confident that you killed all his initial dts and the rest are within his base and not roaming around.
|
Hey, I would probably do it, but then again, I don't know everything, I was just thinking about it.
Basically I was saying I would make a descent amount of photons, and make zealots, enough to fend off 3 dt's per cannon, and try to upgrade speed when they start trying reaver drops. While doing that, you could make a few dragoons, or just skip them and go to reavers and shuttles.
That is what I would do, I didn't say I'd force you at gunpoint sir. And please do explain what is wrong (if you would?), because my connection is too slow to play anything. I myself need advice apparently.
|
United States24767 Posts
Zealots to fend off reavers is a horrible idea. Regardless of if they have speed...
I'm trying to picture some zealots chasing after one of Legionnaire's shuttles.
|
On January 25 2008 22:57 micronesia wrote:
Zealots to fend off reavers is a horrible idea. Regardless of if they have speed...
|
8751 Posts
Hahaha kAra do you think zero-liners are better than one-liners?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
