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United States24767 Posts
I've seen several different versions of a pvp build where the guy rushes dt and expands. My friend told me if you make a robo on 32 supply, the observer will pop out just at the right time to deflect a dt rush.
I played a game on iccup where the guy did a 2dt rush, and my observer was a few seconds late, but it wasn't game deciding. The trouble was I wasn't able to respond correctly to punish him for going dt directly into my observers build.
To give a bit of background, I used to just go 3 gate goons because I sucked with reavers, but I've been learning to go 2 gate + reaver, partially due to being inspired by Nony's reaver siege vod on gaia. I'm going to need to learn not to rely on reavers every game since they definitely wouldn't work in this game; his templar would obviously destroy them with storms. If you were wondering, I made the support bay by accident and didn't mean to make it when his dt came.
So my main question is, exactly how should I respond once I see he's gone dt->expo. As you can see in the replay, I wasn't strong enough to stop him. My desperate attempt to not fall behind was to double expand and macro to get ahead of him before he realized it, but unfortunately I can't get the feel for that as it requires managing 3 bases while macroing and my play isn't quite there yet. I'm also not sure if that is a viable strategy or not. Feedback would be appreciated.
So the two things I need help with are 1) what did I definitely do wrong before I killed his dt that would have set me up better for my counter (other than the support bay) and 2) what are the options for responding?
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32475 = the replay
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United States10774 Posts
my favorite counter to that is two gate + reaver asap. I think it is really the best option. Micro your reavers so they dont get stormed to death (make him waste his storms with your goons).
ps - why not just make reavers if you have support bay? :o
I am gonna watch the rep soon.
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well, going temp tech first hes putting obs later and sacrificing all that gas to get there. he probably has less goons than you, so depending on how long u were put back, you can shove ur goons up his choke, or just play it safe and expo, leading to some other pvp. Reavers would really help here, like countering dt rush with a reaver drop.
Basically, he cant scout as well and has less forces, so after getting ur obs u can sneak another expo, destroy his force (assuming u can micro ur goons and reavers...right?), out tech him, uhh..
responding to dt....
if u scouted it, get forge and a couple of cannons at ur nex/gates/choke or where ever u feel nessacary. get obs asap
if u didnt scout it, you could block him at ur choke and getting detection, try to trap teh dt, just do what ever u can so he cant kill too many of ur probes. in most cases, dt in base usually leads to a really big advantage...
just my 2 cents, i play terran and analyzing toss builds,
lots of goons probably will equal a goon+something else build. normal robo.
Lots of zlots means u probably need forge and detection quicker,because he has that option of going dt.
No range means probably means reavers or dt, so cannon up anyways.
^all of that is really really from what ive been obsing, but i play terran and thats what usually happens anyways in tvp. in pvp that should be the same thing...right?
anyways just my 2 cents
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agreed with oneother, if you had the support you could have reav/gooned his ass and overran his stupid dt>expo. the dt>expo build is so weak once you figure out hes going expos cause the dts are weak as hell if u got obs and hes not going to have great macro because he spent alot of money on tech/dts
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United States24767 Posts
So two people claim continuing to goon reaver him is suitable... is it possible to attack with 2 reavers before he has a couple of storms? If he has storms, isn't that really bad for aggressively using reavers?
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When he does dt-> expo, he is really relying on a set cannon storm defense. Use your reavers to fly around and force him to reposition his troops, maybe even kill probes before the battle, then fly out to the front and smash him with goon reaver while his forces are in disarray.
Be real careful about players who sneak dts in to your main when they see you leave though. Might need an obs / goons there, or even get a forge.
Edit: Also try to snag a few of those dts when he first comes with them. His gas with be spread quite thin between getting range, storm, goons or even leg speed. Force him to make some painful choices by killing those 2 dts, so he might feel compelled to build a couple more. That can slow down storm significantly.
Edit2: If he is going such early dt that a 32-33ish robo is late, then chances are that you could have done some early aggression cuz he would definitely have less goons or no range. Make him nervous by probing around with your forces a little. If you make him spend more money on another gate or more goons before citadel, your in good shape. Also you would know from his troop count and behavior whether he is going fast dt or reaver, and you can react accordingly.
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8751 Posts
bisu vs testie on blitz x is a good game to look at. testie does dt expo, bisu counter-attacks with 1 reaver. he forces testie to build so many cannons that bisu is able to double-expo easily and get an advantage that he never lets up.
reavers can help you but i think your build was bad. you get robo a lot later than how i instructed. even if you had proceeded to get reavers instead of expanding, they would have indeed been too late. but they don't have to be. and also, once his dt attack was over and you start to macro, your macro was less than perfect. you could have still come back.
also on a sidenote, imo if you are going to dt expo, you must send in only 1 dt to his base and leave the other dt outside. if he tries to counter-attack, you send that dt in. since your opponent only has 1 robo and he needs to build shuttle and reaver in order to counter-attack, he is only left with 1 observer to play with. if he waits for 2 observers, it can make the difference so that your storm can finish in time. if your opponent is going 3gate goon + obs, you might be in trouble ~_~ but that build is not so popular since reaver/goon can beat it in many cases. so in the end, it's a bit rick paper scissors, with reaver/goon being the best all-around build.
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8751 Posts
aphelion: if he probes with his troops to see if his opponent is not building many goons or range, it's not safe to assume DT rush when it is equally possible that he could be doing double robo or at least 1 robo before a 2nd gate or range. i have seen double robo here and there on iccup, especially in positions that are close by flight like you see in python and gaia. double robo was also done by stork in MSL finals against bisu (he could do it on positions that werent close by flight because he had double gas in his main). i dont think stork was planning on it -- it looked more out of desperation -- but it worked. it's a dangerous and valid build.
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United States24767 Posts
On August 04 2007 18:46 NonY[rC] wrote:
bisu vs testie on blitz x is a good game to look at. testie does dt expo, bisu counter-attacks with 1 reaver. he forces testie to build so many cannons that bisu is able to double-expo easily and get an advantage that he never lets up.
I just watched that for the first time. It seems like, as you said, the key to Bisu's lead was to take a third base sooner, while maintaining pressure on Testie. I also see how Bisu's build was similar to that one you used, and how he went with just 1 reaver to allow for earlier pressure, and a second observer earlier. This is very helpful.
reavers can help you but i think your build was bad. you get robo a lot later than how i instructed. even if you had proceeded to get reavers instead of expanding, they would have indeed been too late. but they don't have to be. and also, once his dt attack was over and you start to macro, your macro was less than perfect. you could have still come back.
As I said I started using reavers because I saw how good they can be in your vod, but up until now I haven't been trying to mimic your build order. I watched your video again and I see better how you time your robotics and second gateway (specifically in that order). Also, yeah I definitely noticed the macro shortcomings... this happens to me whenever I am on less familiar maps or playing less familiar bo's or strategies, so I'll work on this as I play.
also on a sidenote, imo if you are going to dt expo, you must send in only 1 dt to his base and leave the other dt outside. if he tries to counter-attack, you send that dt in. since your opponent only has 1 robo and he needs to build shuttle and reaver in order to counter-attack, he is only left with 1 observer to play with. if he waits for 2 observers, it can make the difference so that your storm can finish in time. if your opponent is going 3gate goon + obs, you might be in trouble ~_~ but that build is not so popular since reaver/goon can beat it in many cases. so in the end, it's a bit rick paper scissors, with reaver/goon being the best all-around build.
I see how this worked for testie in that game. If bisu's second observer was a few seconds later, he would have been getting his probes diced up.
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micronesia... don't let cali see this thread, I dont' want to have to learn another PvP build.
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You simply got outmacrod. You had 3 gates for most of the game while he had 5
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If you don't fuck up, you can have 2 observers (1 scouting / with your attack army, 1 defending, in case he wants to run in when you leave your base) + 2 gate robo with 2 reavers and a shuttle attacking just in time before he gets his storm, or in the worst case, he gets 2 storms and has no units. Piece of cake to counter if you are not put behind too much by his DT's. As for 3 gate goon - it's crap against this, he'll get cannon + zeal and hold you while he techs to storm, from then on, you're screwed.
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United States24767 Posts
On August 04 2007 18:46 NonY[rC] wrote:
if your opponent is going 3gate goon + obs, you might be in trouble ~_~ but that build is not so popular since reaver/goon can beat it in many cases.
Naib wrote:
As for 3 gate goon - it's crap against this, he'll get cannon + zeal and hold you while he techs to storm, from then on, you're screwed.
It's gotta take balls to blatantly say the opposite of what this year's wcg usa winner said about his own mirror matchup.
Also, I'd like the people saying how e-_-z it is to counter this to show me a replay of them doing it vs a good player -_-. Don't worry though, I saw bisu do it so I already have some good source material.
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8751 Posts
i think naib just misunderstood what you actually do with the 3gate goon. i wouldnt expect the 3gate goon to counter and win right there. on a map like python, it might win, since the choke is so wide. on tau, longinus, gaia, azalea, etc, it won't be so easy. however, you dont continue to power goons when you first see the DT. you actually stop building goons completely and go counter, just to apply pressure and force him to stop probes and to build extra cannons. your economy can easily surpass his despite expanding much later
ps: naib is pretty good. he's not some random guy 
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United States24767 Posts
On August 05 2007 07:01 NonY[rC] wrote:i think naib just misunderstood what you actually do with the 3gate goon. i wouldnt expect the 3gate goon to counter and win right there. on a map like python, it might win, since the choke is so wide. on tau, longinus, gaia, azalea, etc, it won't be so easy. however, you dont continue to power goons when you first see the DT. you actually stop building goons completely and go counter, just to apply pressure and force him to stop probes and to build extra cannons. your economy can easily surpass his despite expanding much later ps: naib is pretty good. he's not some random guy
Okay, cool. But I don't understand what the purpose of stopping goon production is when you see the dt. As you said, you should counter right away... but what's the advantage of stopping goon production?
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On August 04 2007 18:18 micronesia wrote:
So two people claim continuing to goon reaver him is suitable... is it possible to attack with 2 reavers before he has a couple of storms? If he has storms, isn't that really bad for aggressively using reavers?
There is no way if you properly time your attack he has over 3 storms. Even 3 storms is a lot at that point.
Get your reavers out.
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8751 Posts
stop goon production so that you can expand as soon as possible. the extra goons wont even be helpful with the type of micro you'll be doing.
dt drop is not the ideal counter. dt drop can be stopped easily without sacrificing too much. you'll never see a game where there was nothing that could have been done about a dt drop. you'll only see games where something could have been done, but it wasnt, so the dt drop was successful. that's not an ideal counter at all.
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Thanks Micro for making this thread
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Ideal counter is dtdrop, here's a rep
I second that
dt drop will basically auto kill his main nexus, unless he really sees it coming. 2 cannons will not save him, just drop 2 dts on top of each cannon with some good shuttle micro and his nexus will soon be on the way to destruction
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EPT
