EPTAnd if I want to avoid getting contained in the first place, at what food level do i add gates for a fast zeal+leg upgrade rush?
PvZ Hydra Lurk
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spetial
United States688 Posts
And if I want to avoid getting contained in the first place, at what food level do i add gates for a fast zeal+leg upgrade rush? | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Take your time and place good storms, you will want more dragoons and less zealots. Usually the contain should be weak if you keep harassing with storm raids and DT drops constantly at his expansions. Keep harassing and don't give up. I've seen amazing toss comebacks. Try the templar+goon maneuver, it helps a ton vs lurkers. And do not send the bulk of your army out untill the lurker number has been reduced, so you can minimize their splash dmg on u. | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
with only 2 bases I'm not sure how many gates you should have in this situation but 4 sounds good. 0-0-3 goons are ownage as well. Keep the attack upgrade going nonstop throughout the game. | ||
GTR
51582 Posts
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Reflex
Canada703 Posts
I've heard a lot of people say what evan says (just keep the harass up), but one sunk, one spore and a lurk in every expo pretty much nullifies anything a protoss can do. (once you get rid of these annoying defenses, the entire zerg horde comes charging in and owns whatever units you just tried to harass with). | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Not to mention thats about 500 mins 125 gas per base to defend. | ||
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vhallee
899 Posts
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statix
United States1760 Posts
On July 14 2007 01:40 CharlieMurphy wrote: Agree with them, also I might add that goon/HT/Obs is the main things you will be building. Shuttles and zeals are secondary. its very gas heavy. with only 2 bases I'm not sure how many gates you should have in this situation but 4 sounds good. 0-0-3 goons are ownage as well. Keep the attack upgrade going nonstop throughout the game. u mean 3-0-0? | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
1. Add up to 7 gateways for heavy massing, up to 9 if your macro is pretty weak. You'll expand as soon as you break the contain. 2. Make mass mass mass mass HT while you're massing up, and make plenty of obs too. You only need 6-8 goons while you're massing--focus instead on HT. You should make mostly zeals and HT at this stage. 3. In all engagements, be aware of where your observers are; don't carelessly get all of them sniped. Try keeping a couple obs near the back of your army in case the rest are destroyed, and make sure none stray out too far ever. 4. As soon as any 2 HT get 75 mana, run up those HT to the contain with your forces close behind as protection. Move an obs just in range to see the nearest lurker, storm it, and shoot it once with one goon to kill it. Don't waste two storms on one lone lurker. Retreat everything immediately. If a hydra group tries to snipe your obs or HT, storm that as well while you retreat. Don't let either HT or obs die, and don't morph the HT. In a hardcore contain, that HT may get back up to 75 mana again. 5. Try to sneak an obs out the side of your nat to scout how many bases the zerg is taking and if he's going for an early Hive (nothing to worry about). 6. Optionally, storm drop early in the contain if you think he doesn't have a Spire. 7. Before you're about to break out, shift production focus to mass goons, and morph low-mana HT into archons. 8. Break out with HT and goons first, shielding both HT and obs. You need to keep zealots close behind, and give them a pathway to run out in front. Storm storm storm everything you see as fast as you can--let your goons go on attack move mostly and focus on storming. Prioritize large hydra clumps first and then lurkers and then small hydra clumps. Once the majority of lurkers are dead or the army appears to be in retreat, run all your zeals up into the fray. 9. To reiterate, expand as soon as you've cleared out the contain, don't ever lose all your obs in a fight, and run your entire army out to go bash things. This is a zerg's weakest timing in the game. If you snuck an obs (or maybe even two!) out earlier to scout around, you'll know which expo to attack. If not, make an educated guess. It's often a good idea to move your army to attack the zerg's new expo (often the nat to another main), which makes him go panic and mass sunken/spore/lurker there. In that case, you can instead charge at the nat; if not, you can raze that new expo. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On July 14 2007 09:35 Reflex] wrote: I usually have the same problem as the op. Storm doesn't work so well when all of the Zerg's lurkers are spread out, and also hydras melt goons really, really fast. Every time I break out of the contain, half my army is already gone and the zerg already has ultralisk tech. I've heard a lot of people say what evan says (just keep the harass up), but one sunk, one spore and a lurk in every expo pretty much nullifies anything a protoss can do. (once you get rid of these annoying defenses, the entire zerg horde comes charging in and owns whatever units you just tried to harass with). Actually, whenever I face mass hydra, the thing I would WANT to have is mass goon. If your goons don't kill hydra for cost, something's wrong with your micro. They simply have more range and hydra facing goon is very vulnerable to storm. Most tosses that have troubles with contains simply don't have the appropriate macro/micro, hence they have less units and are not using them effectively. You can mass a tremendous army off of 2 bases, and 4 gates is not enough even for 1 base, especially if you're doing non-mineral-heavy templars. If you need to break a heavy contain, halt probes and get 7-8 gates (the rest of your money should go into upgrading) and just mass. Harass is important, but it's secondary to having an army. If you still have troubles, get a robo up at your expo and go ground reavers. Reaver/goon will eventually eliminate any hydra/lurker threat. It's not better or worse that zealot/temp/archon, but you will probably have better chances if your breakout is late and you're already facing ultra. Reavers > Ultraling. | ||
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Skittled
United States160 Posts
weapon shield armor. look at a dragoon. i'm a terran player, so i wouldn't really know. however, for the hell of it, i tried to do fast expo as Toss in a PvZ. i skipped sairs because it would be the obvious thing i'm doing, i first teched to storm. then, i got an archon. then, i teched to reavers/ obs. i pretty much just reaver harassed and screwed with his econ. then, i broke his contain of hydra/lurk with just 2 shuttled reavers, 1 obs, 10 goons, and 4 ht. it didn't take too long as well. also, if you have alot of minerals, just expand. i just expanded twice at this point. i put up 2 gates and a bunch of cannons at every expo. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
OP, you just need to break faster. The unit mixes they've told you to use are correct, you're simply playing people better than yourself. Eventually your macro and micro will improve, and their contain won't seem as devastating as it used to. Your other option of course is to stop playing fast exp. and put pressure on yourself  | ||
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Andaroo
Canada70 Posts
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Mass goon doesn't work well PvZ not because goons are ineffective on themselves, but because of the build timings. You need either zealots or cannons to defend early, thus you can't mass goons right from the start and then you're subject to the dreaded 2 hatch hydra (which, if done correctly, is a surge-type build aimed to get many troops really fast halting economy and tech) with 3-4 goons on field and no chance of templar tech coming soon or to mutas coming very fast. If you're, however, able to pull stunts like pylon gate core pylon gate and mass 2 gate goon (team games come to mind), goons are really really decent. | ||
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Aux1
United States780 Posts
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On July 14 2007 13:06 Aux1 wrote: bluzman stop speaking plx Denied. | ||
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xmShake
United States1100 Posts
Dragoons do 15 to hydras. | ||
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BalloonFight
United States2007 Posts
Yeah, vs Hydra/Lurk storm/dt/reaver or whatever dropping to annoy him is vital. Just keep this in mind, any hydra heavy build, storm drops = life savers. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
If you FE vs a Zerg you'll definitely get contained; whenever I see Hydralurk coming I always start pumping Dragoons + High Templar; one Storm + one Phase Disruptor = Lurker kill. I like to add several Reavers (like Reach did vs Shark) also so I'm not caught with my pants down when the Zerg tech switches to Ultraling. | ||
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spetial
United States688 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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spetial
United States688 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Nope, 0-0-3 is correct ![[image loading]](http://entropyzero.org/screens/easy_test/easytest4.jpg) Interesting though haha it's Armour-Shield-Atk | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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rushz0rz
Canada5300 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On July 14 2007 15:48 evanthebouncy! wrote: Nope, 0-0-3 is correct Interesting though haha it's Armour-Shield-Atk yea, people always just say 3-0-0 or 3-0 because 'attack' is most important upg., and I think in the Forge 'attack' is on the left instead of the right matching the way it looks on units. PS- nice base lol | ||
KwarK
United States43898 Posts
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sir.rippey lummi
Finland26 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On July 14 2007 18:10 Kwark wrote: You don't wanna come out into his contain head on either. Mainly because the point of his contain is to make that very difficult. On a map called python it is the work of 30 seconds to move an army from your main to the centre using a shuttle. Instead of pushing out into a concave of lurks you'd be better hitting them from the side. This advice is good in all matchups vs a contain tbh. Yes, not only is it no problem if a lurker isn't undefacebookr the land, but it's no problem as well if the lurker is under the land somewhere else. This applies to contains, defending expos, flanking, etc. Lurkers out of position suck and do nothing, and moving them in the middle of battles takes time. At a dedicated terrain, lurkers are going to be very much in position (well, those in front), albeit very stormable one-by-one. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On July 14 2007 13:06 Aux1 wrote: bluzman stop speaking plx mass hydra rape mass goon hydras macro faster, cost less, and do same damage? and with upgrade range on hydra and upgrade range on goon it isnt enough of a difference to win you a 12goon vs 12 hydra battle or something. also, hydras have much less cool down time. Leave this forum, please. | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On July 14 2007 13:06 Aux1 wrote: bluzman stop speaking plx mass hydra rape mass goon hydras macro faster, cost less, and do same damage? and with upgrade range on hydra and upgrade range on goon it isnt enough of a difference to win you a 12goon vs 12 hydra battle or something. also, hydras have much less cool down time. hydra > goon only when zerg is outmacroing -_-;. Goons > hydras. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On July 14 2007 15:48 evanthebouncy! wrote: Nope, 0-0-3 is correct Interesting though haha it's Armour-Shield-Atk Ooh look at that pro game; who is it between? rA vs Savior? | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
as for goons, i believe hydras have a fast attack rate, so its 20 dmg for every 15 the goon dishes out (hypothetically). even though the hydra will die first (180 hp vs 80 hp, not much contest there), the goon will be heavily dmged and because there are usu. more hydras then there are goons.... | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
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