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Having some fun playing as Terran and i thought id test Fog(or shroud) out and see what it has in store.
What i found was that you have a great advantage attacking from any of these tank positions (red ones) as that makes you see the enemy tank before he can see you, while its the opposite if you meet a siege tank from the direction where there are no tanks, then you will be shot first and most likely lose if you got even numbers.
Ghosts in picture got sight range of 11 (ocular implants), one more than the tank but still they died as you can see right/bottom right where there should be ghosts (and tanks) in a circle. The spots where ghosts still survived are where they stand and saw the enemy tank first.
This is the same for any unit so if you got the same sight range you have a clear advantage from getting the information first, and as you can see not even +1 sight range makes a difference sometimes.
From my testing the absolute worst direction to scout from is East. You could walk tanks very far before getting a glimpse on center blue tank.
(all these tanks + ghosts can see blue tank but not vice versa)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/SQqcrJC.png)
(All tanks here have seen the blue tank then moved away until it cant see it)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/px5QYvM.png)
(Blue pov from above same position, tanks that can be shot even though they walked back to not see blue tank, the tanks here are invincible which is why they werent shot at, the above image shows mortal tanks that were shot and had to move back one step, thats why there are tanks way farther than these ones)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/hhzXmW7.png)
(This Turret got sight range 11 vs tanks 10. It should be able to see all tanks in all directions that is currently watching the Turret)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3F54AV9.png)
If you play as Zerg and use Overlord scouting (duh!) it has sight range 9 vs Command Centers 10. Then you would want an angle of scouting from top left.
(As for vs Protoss ure out of luck)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/wC8KTgn.jpg)
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Hmm... this is some really interesting information, I am not sure how someone would be able to realistically use this in a game though, unless they have perfect movement like an AI. =P
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Heard people mention about this in a tvt game so I'm sure the pros know but that's a neat way to display it.
Won't change tvp/tvz much but for tvt this is very important
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Have you accounted for Tank turret rotation? From what I recall, tanks shooting in one direction did have longer range than in the other (it was up vs. down), but I forget which.
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@Jealous i recall something like that too.. I'll try it out now.
Edit: Tried it and its the same no matter direction. If you can shoot it, it can shoot you.
There must be some other game we're thinking about because i have a strong memory of something like this. It could however be the fog of war part.
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On April 29 2020 07:15 GGzerG wrote:
Hmm... this is some really interesting information, I am not sure how someone would be able to realistically use this in a game though, unless they have perfect movement like an AI. =P
I think pros use this all the time in TvT, it's common knowledge among them.
Don't know where but I've heard this being mentioned oftentimes, that you should always try to set your siege-lines in a certain way (or attack into siege-lines) to abuse the prolonged vision, but could never remember from which angle you should do it.
So, to sum it up, would be: try to avoid attacking sieged tanks from angles between 2 to 6 o'clock (?)
Or: try to set your tanks up so that they will shot towards an angle between 2 and 6 o'clock.
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Russian Federation368 Posts
sorry, but its hard to understand your explanations.
For example, you say: "From my testing the absolute worst direction to scout from is East. You could walk tanks very far before getting a glimpse on center blue tank."
i can't see proof of this statement from these screenshots. Can you show it another way?
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On April 29 2020 19:50 MeSaber wrote:
@Jealous i recall something like that too.. I'll try it out now.
Edit: Tried it and its the same no matter direction. If you can shoot it, it can shoot you.
There must be some other game we're thinking about because i have a strong memory of something like this. It could however be the fog of war part.
Are you thinking about the fact that tanks (in siege mode) can shoot further north/south than they can east/west? I seem to recall that tanks shooting north (and maybe south) can also hit [slightly] further than they can see, but I would have to test this out.
Also a note about the overlord scout: you can select a nexus without seeing it, and without it seeing you, if your overlord is at the end of the sight-line and click where the nexus would be. At least from the top left direction, I don't know about other ones.
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@spx i'll see what i can do tomorrow.
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On April 30 2020 07:25 NrG.Bamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2020 19:50 MeSaber wrote:
@Jealous i recall something like that too.. I'll try it out now.
Edit: Tried it and its the same no matter direction. If you can shoot it, it can shoot you.
There must be some other game we're thinking about because i have a strong memory of something like this. It could however be the fog of war part. Are you thinking about the fact that tanks (in siege mode) can shoot further north/south than they can east/west? I seem to recall that tanks shooting north (and maybe south) can also hit [slightly] further than they can see, but I would have to test this out.
Pretty sure Tanks can shoot outside their vision range in ANY direction, but they shoot North a little farther than South. I believe that's what it was.
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On April 30 2020 07:53 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2020 07:25 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On April 29 2020 19:50 MeSaber wrote:
@Jealous i recall something like that too.. I'll try it out now.
Edit: Tried it and its the same no matter direction. If you can shoot it, it can shoot you.
There must be some other game we're thinking about because i have a strong memory of something like this. It could however be the fog of war part. Are you thinking about the fact that tanks (in siege mode) can shoot further north/south than they can east/west? I seem to recall that tanks shooting north (and maybe south) can also hit [slightly] further than they can see, but I would have to test this out. Pretty sure Tanks can shoot outside their vision range in ANY direction, but they shoot North a little farther than South. I believe that's what it was.
Oh, oops. Sort of obvious that they can shoot outside of vision haha. Not sure why my brain did that.
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@Jealous ive already tested that. Its not the case. Any south tank can hit north tank and vice versa.
This is however not the case with Fog as shown in pictures.
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On April 30 2020 16:39 MeSaber wrote:
@Jealous ive already tested that. Its not the case. Any south tank can hit north tank and vice versa.
This is however not the case with Fog as shown in pictures.
Hm, maybe I misremembered then. Could be that it shoots faster, because turret doesn't have to turn as far?
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@spx i just did a speed test where i tried to stop the unit as fast as possible after seeing the enemy. The top left vs bottom right yielded the best result. Actually it was 100%.
While rest of the angles did have a lot of errors, even left to right.
However if you know your enemy is sieged from left to top angle you shouldnt approach with ease but with force. While its the opposite from bottom to right angle then you can slow-push and kill tanks with precision shots.
In the heat of battle i highly doubt you think about subtleties like this. Its however good to know if you have very few siege tanks, then you might draw the longest straw just because of this.
I'd recommend you make an ums where you attack a sieged computer from all angles with 2-3 tanks and see the results for yourself.
When it comes to big battles i doubt this would make a difference at all, its however just a fun fact to know that you have slight advantage from left to top angle in terms of seeing stuff first. And this goes for every unit, i.e Overlord scouting, or whatever.
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Does this effect only apply to tanks? Nevermind, shouldn't read these posts on inferior device (phone)…
Have you controlled this for different Tank/unit positions, relative to the tile grid?
You probably have only discovered (in a roundabout way) what is already known: That vision works not on a continuous pixel basis but on a rather coarse tile basis. So for non-building units results are probably not consistent.
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On April 30 2020 07:53 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2020 07:25 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On April 29 2020 19:50 MeSaber wrote:
@Jealous i recall something like that too.. I'll try it out now.
Edit: Tried it and its the same no matter direction. If you can shoot it, it can shoot you.
There must be some other game we're thinking about because i have a strong memory of something like this. It could however be the fog of war part. Are you thinking about the fact that tanks (in siege mode) can shoot further north/south than they can east/west? I seem to recall that tanks shooting north (and maybe south) can also hit [slightly] further than they can see, but I would have to test this out. Pretty sure Tanks can shoot outside their vision range in ANY direction, but they shoot North a little farther than South. I believe that's what it was.
Correct, I also remember this.
EDIT : Really ? I remember similar to Jealous that a tank shooting in the N / NE direction could shoot a pixel or two further than normal, unless I am completely off, I swear there was a pro gamer talking about this in the past.
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I can't translate it, but I can explain it to you:
Vision range does not consider whether a unit is X distance away from another, but whether it touches any tile that is within vision range from the unit. So what you are seeing are basically rounding errors that lead to a direction bias of vision, depending on where a unit is placed, relative to the tile grid.
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On May 01 2020 18:36 Freakling wrote:
I can't translate it, but I can explain it to you:
Vision range does not consider whether a unit is X distance away from another, but whether it touches any tile that is within vision range from the unit. So what you are seeing are basically rounding errors that lead to a direction bias of vision, depending on where a unit is placed, relative to the tile grid.
Uhh huh.... In Layman's terms? lol
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On May 01 2020 18:36 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2020 07:53 Jealous wrote:On April 30 2020 07:25 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On April 29 2020 19:50 MeSaber wrote:
@Jealous i recall something like that too.. I'll try it out now.
Edit: Tried it and its the same no matter direction. If you can shoot it, it can shoot you.
There must be some other game we're thinking about because i have a strong memory of something like this. It could however be the fog of war part. Are you thinking about the fact that tanks (in siege mode) can shoot further north/south than they can east/west? I seem to recall that tanks shooting north (and maybe south) can also hit [slightly] further than they can see, but I would have to test this out. Pretty sure Tanks can shoot outside their vision range in ANY direction, but they shoot North a little farther than South. I believe that's what it was. Correct, I also remember this.
No. They only shoot faster in the NW direction, due to turret orientation after siege up. The more a target direction deviates from that optimal angle the more frames the attack is delayed because the turret needs to rotate first.
EDIT: And vision-wise, it seems, they actually get quite a massive advantage (one tile difference) in the S and E directions.
On May 01 2020 18:38 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2020 18:36 Freakling wrote:
I can't translate it, but I can explain it to you:
Vision range does not consider whether a unit is X distance away from another, but whether it touches any tile that is within vision range from the unit. So what you are seeing are basically rounding errors that lead to a direction bias of vision, depending on where a unit is placed, relative to the tile grid. Uhh huh.... In Layman's terms? lol
Let me draw you a picture…
EDIT: Sorry, screw pictures for now (or just look at the actual in-game ones from the link). Seems like both range and, more critically, vision are not properly implemented in ScmDraft, so easy Screenshots from within the editor…
EDIT2: Actually reading/translating my way through that article makes it seem like there's actually something else going on, which would be consistent with the OP's observations, namely that a unit is actually spotted based on the top left pixel of it's "production box" (which, according to the article, is not identical with it's collision box…). Would be a good idea to study OpenBW for the exact implementation, I guess. But this is something so mindbogglingly stupid (as so many things in Brood War) that I'll reserve a whole other very special torture chamber just for whoever came up with that…
It's a very thorough article, and google translate translates it well. Definitely worth a read.
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EPT
