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edit 3: I've managed to figure out that my actual build order is different than what I plan/say. So ya, in that case it's kinda obvious. Thanks for the help everyone. Now I have a ton of other things I need to work on.
Original message:
Note: I've used the search function and haven't found anything that I can use.
As a zerg player, and a terrible one too, the main obstacle I'm trying to overcome is the 1 zealot rush. As a previous random player, I know how it works and I've even beat a PvT with it against a terran player far greater in skill than me.
In a lot of replays and VODs, I see people FE with zerg, while the toss just chills in their base.
Okay, my situation is this:
[this paragraph has been deleted cause it's really stupid]
The build I've been doing lately is 12 hatch 11 pool. If I FE with that hatch it still gets harassed and though I fend off the attack after losing a lot of zerglings and wasting a lot of time, I'm behind in economy and I get droppped within a couple minutes.
I tried countering but 4 zealots + 1 goon +1 probe blocking the ramp holds back my 16 speedlings. It's really frustrating.
By the time I'm able to get hydras (not even going to think about getting a spire, I've been mass zealot rushed because of that) there's already a shuttle dropping zealots in my base. And I know there's another thread that talks about that, but frankly I don't even know where to start. I'm making so many mistakes.
The only way I've been able to get around this is 9 pool, but I don't want to 9 pool for the rest of my life.
How does zerg 2 hatch pool against zealot rush?
edit: I would include a replay, but you all will say "oh, he's only 99apm, that's under 100, noob!"
edit2: I think I found something but it doesn't quite work.
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Calgary25975 Posts
4 Zealots? Try not exaggerating.
If you suspect a rush, lay Sunkens as soon as the Hatchery morphs and delay by running Zerglings around. He targets Sunken, you attack Zealots; Zealots stop to attack Zerglings, you run away.
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I'm not exaggerating... maybe I'm just ridiculously slow but he already has more than 2 zealots (3-4 as I said) at me before I even get anywhere.
I think I'll play a game right now and post that replay later. Been happening to me all the time =\
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lol i love how every couple of days there will be a thread on how one unit counters another and then another thread does the opposite haha.
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United States42263 Posts
Check out mondragons ZvP guide. He recommends 9 hatch 9 pool and then elaborates on how to win from that opening vs anything a P does. It's pretty sexy.
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are you 12hatching in a map where the starts are close?? 12/3 lt, rov, etc., maps like that will leave you open to a rush if you 12 hatch.
if youre really having that hard of a time with it, 12 pool instead, its more of a middle ground between eco (12h) and micro(9p). kind of need a rep too.
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I find 9 pool speed to work pretty good if you can micro decent. Build a sunk if too many zealots.
Also 11 pool/11 hatch (@ expo) has been working well for me v. 2 gate pressure.
PS. My apm is right about where yours is so don't assume your not fast enough.
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Another thing about the zealot rush.... when I'm finally able to fight him back, he retreats to his base's ramp and holds there. Now I'm expecting either sairs or drop or both, but one time I got tricked and he came out with mass zealots and goons while I was teching to scourges+lurkers. I tried to scout his base but I couldn't get in by ground, and I tried to look around with an overlord sacrifice but he was already waiting and shot it down.
Am I supposed to even bother countering his attack or should I just mass up while he turtles.
And if I am supposed to mass up, how do I defend myself against sair/reaver? I tried placing a couple sunkens but reavers own them. And my units never get back to the place of attack before I've been damaged severely.
edit:
Oh, and in response to Hawk, I've been mainly playing Tau Cross, Gaia, a little Python and Longinus. Reverse temple sometimes too. But it's mainly Gaia and Tau Cross that kill me.
edit 2:
Still gaming for a good rep that actually shows what I'm saying here. Just played a ZvZ game where I took out the guy's entire droneline yet still lost because he had mutas before I did, rofl.
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after you fend off the zlot rush you want to rebuild your drone count as much as possible and then start to build units again when you feel like hes going to attack. its a lot to do with feeling/getting what little information you can.
and against reaver/sair you want a lot of hydras.
thats as much as i can tell you without a replay.
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well as far as sacrificing an ol, instead of charging in blindly to a random spot, you can scout the perimiter first. take gaia for example. ill usually head one ol back to main, just incase he goes sair so ill lose one instead of two lords. but to scout his tech if he blocks ramp, you float around the edge where he wont be able to get you. and see if you see any pylons or any shit there. if you can see tech, but you can see pylon, go there, since you got a better chance of spotting it. and always have a scoutling out front.
as far as build timing, gaia's got some length between bases. you really need to post reps, cuz youre not going to get any better help this way.
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On June 29 2007 11:19 Kwark wrote:
Check out mondragons ZvP guide. He recommends 9 hatch 9 pool and then elaborates on how to win from that opening vs anything a P does. It's pretty sexy.
I have yet to see one recent game of Mondragon where he actually does that.
That advice is dated and he does 12 hatch 11 pool most of the time.
Not recommended in general.
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Calgary25975 Posts
On June 29 2007 12:51 Brutalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2007 11:19 Kwark wrote:
Check out mondragons ZvP guide. He recommends 9 hatch 9 pool and then elaborates on how to win from that opening vs anything a P does. It's pretty sexy. I have yet to see one recent game of Mondragon where he actually does that. That advice is dated and he does 12 hatch 11 pool most of the time. Not recommended in general.
TRUE! That guide is SO outdated and Mondragon never plays like that now.
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If he just sends one to harass you than you can easly fend it off with 4 lings and some minor drone micro (if you lose any you just plain suck and need to work on your multitasking/micromanagement). If he goes for a 9/10 or 10/12 you just build lings in both hatches and lay 2/3 creeps in your nat (if he goes for your main he's dead if you know how to micro your workers). Don't cancel any! Even if you see one getting hit, you're just buying time doing this anyway.
Easy to deal with, imo.
9hatch 9pool is a fine build - but only if you are better than your opponent and would win anyway;-)
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What is a "1 zealot rush" by the way?
The only sorts of zealot rush you really need to be worried about are the various 2-gate incarnations; i.e. 9/10, proxy, 10/12. 9/10 and proxy double gate can both be very dangerous and end the game right there. A 10/12 rush is usually aimed at slowing you down and punishing you for FEing.
You can try scouting at 9 drone (while OL is building and about 150 min) if you're playing unfamiliar opponents or an opponent who you expect zealot rushing from. That will help you determine what sort of response you should make. If you see early gates or proxy gates, I'd hatch at ramp or in-base or even 12 pool if it's not too late. If you see 10/12 you can drop your FE hatch (at 12, presumably) as normal.
I keep two or three drones around my hatchery right as it's about to pop so that I can drop my sunkens as fast as possible (important to save up that money instead of grabbing a third hatch, obviously) while making 6 lings and rallying my hatcheries to my ramp. Usually he will have 1 zeal and the scout probe already there, with 2 more zeals on their way. If you can drop those two sunkens though, then all you have to do is try to stall until they're up. Let your hatch take some hits, let the sunkens take some hits, try not to lose too many lings, and make sure he can't run up your ramp.
If you are able to morph your sunkens before his zeals do much serious damage, then you are significantly ahead. You can chase his zeals back to his base with your lings and make it annoying for him to expo, and then play it like vs. 1 gate assim, fast tech toss except much slower to tech. Personally I like to get about 4 hatches and then try to run him through with about 12-16 lings and 6-12 hydras right when his expo's come in and he's only warped in maybe 2 or 3 cannons.
One other tip is that you can go in and steal his gas with your scout drone--this way you can gauge how committed to his rush he is and act accordingly.
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I've looked through the first 10 or so replays of mondi in the WGT beta replay pack, and I think I remember him doing a 9 hatch at least once. Don't remember agains't which race though. But 9 hatch makes most sense vs protoss right? Then again he could have made any build and still won most of those games.
He is 9 pooling a lot (in the first few replays at least). I don't know if that is his style or if he just wants to win as fast as possible. Anyway you will probably get some hints by looking at the ZvP reps.
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On June 29 2007 13:14 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2007 12:51 Brutalisk wrote:On June 29 2007 11:19 Kwark wrote:
Check out mondragons ZvP guide. He recommends 9 hatch 9 pool and then elaborates on how to win from that opening vs anything a P does. It's pretty sexy. I have yet to see one recent game of Mondragon where he actually does that. That advice is dated and he does 12 hatch 11 pool most of the time. Not recommended in general. TRUE! That guide is SO outdated and Mondragon never plays like that now.
He never really played like that even when he wrote the guide according to the reps lol
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A good map to learn on is Luna. If you can't 12 hatch 11 pool on Luna, you need to work your splitting and early game. Send a drone to your expo at 200 mins when your 10th, 11th, and 12th drones are making. It should arrive right as your drones pop (2 at once then 1 more), and with a little multitasking, you should have your hatchery down. If he harasses with a probe, keep trying to put it down, but remember to lay a pool at 450 mins at the LATEST. That way, you'll still have lings before his zealots get there. If you manage to get the hatch down no problem, just pool as soon as you get 200, then make 3 drones.
After that, depending on what the toss is doing, you can either hatch again in your base or tech. I suggest hatching in base, getting your mineral economy strong and massing lings, then gas and hydra or gas and double evo chamber a bit later. Start your upgrades before speed, the toss usually won't move out until later anyway, and you'll be able to retreat even without speed. If he goes sair, stick with hatch tech and get hydras. If he goes templars, you'll probably need lurkers and at least an armor upgrade going. If he's just mass gating, double evo chamber and fight him with mass ling/hydra backup while taking expos and denying his attempts.
From there, play ZvP.
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The one zealot rush is im assuming 9 gate or something early like that off of 1 base and 1 gate only. Toss sends one zealot to harass your main with probe then sends another to your nat, etc, etc. It's really dirty and annoying, build 6 lings and sunken your nat if the bases are close.
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You really don't need to change your build to stop a 2 gate rush unless the map is one where zeals can just go around a sunken at your nat into your main, for example Azalea. A 10/12 gate rush is very easily defended, your first lings hatch in time to defend against the first zealot and a sunken laid straight after your nat hatch finishes finishes in time to defend against the next two. The only one that can do significant damage is a 9/10 rush with 3-4 probes (not a proxy).
Assuming you've scouted it with a drone, when your nat hatch is about to finish send 3 drones there and rally the hatch in your main to your nat. As soon as it finishes build 3 sunkens. The zeal will attack one of the creep colonies. Cancel that one just before it's done, and there won't be enough time for them to kill the other two while being delayed by your lings. The real problem is when probes block the drones and you can't build the creep colonies, in which case you're in serious trouble and will have to bring more drones so that he can't block them all.
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Canada7170 Posts
edit: I would include a replay, but you all will say "oh, he's only 99apm, that's under 100, noob!"
Actually, most of the decent strategists will not do this. Could you post a rep? it would make it easier for me to understand, but what a lot of these posts say are right. I believe 9 hatch 9 pool is perfectly viable at lower levels of play - against it that is. As said, Mondragon's guide mentioned earlier is a good read.
EDIT: http://www.gosus.com/?mode=newsDetail&session=&id=490,1 is the link.
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a safer FE build vs 2 gate is 9 pool after lord, 11 hatch. your lings will be earlier, but make sure u don't forget to rebuild your eco after defending the rush.
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9 hatch 9 pool is perfectly safe vs. any kind of Zealot rush, but you should really rather take the small risk and use 12 hatch 11 pool and help with drones if necessary, or run the drones away until your lings pop, and place a sunken ASAP when the hatch finishes.
9 hatch 9 pool is very bad for your economy, especially if the Protoss follows up with a fast expansion after his first few Zealots.
With 12 hatch 11 pool you can constantly produce drones, with 9h9p pool you have about a minute or so (rough estimation) where you can't get any more drones (9th drone -> wait for 300 for hatchery. After hatchery -> wait for 200 for pool. After pool -> wait for 100 for overlord. During all that time you only have max. 9 drones, which sucks)
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I use 12 hatch 11 pool and I can fend off any non-proxy zealot rush. It's all a matter of scouting and saving larvae (if you see him make 2 gates before gas) so you will have 4 larvae free as soon as the spawning pool pops. By this time your opponent will have about 2 zealots and 1 probe harrassing u, simply take 1-2 drones with ur 8 lings and you should be destroy that no problem, make a sunk in your nat while this is happening and you should be able to successfully stop the rush. It's important that before you have a sunk up your zergling to zealot count must be at least 4:1, any less then that and you have to bring additional drones with you to combat the zealots, the reason for this is that zealots are much easier to micro then zerglings, they can simply pull back the damaged ones and hide in a corner somewhere.
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On June 29 2007 13:32 kewlsunman wrote:
What is a "1 zealot rush" by the way?
The only sorts of zealot rush you really need to be worried about are the various 2-gate incarnations; i.e. 9/10, proxy, 10/12. 9/10 and proxy double gate can both be very dangerous and end the game right there. A 10/12 rush is usually aimed at slowing you down and punishing you for FEing.
You can try scouting at 9 drone (while OL is building and about 150 min) if you're playing unfamiliar opponents or an opponent who you expect zealot rushing from. That will help you determine what sort of response you should make. If you see early gates or proxy gates, I'd hatch at ramp or in-base or even 12 pool if it's not too late. If you see 10/12 you can drop your FE hatch (at 12, presumably) as normal.
I keep two or three drones around my hatchery right as it's about to pop so that I can drop my sunkens as fast as possible (important to save up that money instead of grabbing a third hatch, obviously) while making 6 lings and rallying my hatcheries to my ramp. Usually he will have 1 zeal and the scout probe already there, with 2 more zeals on their way. If you can drop those two sunkens though, then all you have to do is try to stall until they're up. Let your hatch take some hits, let the sunkens take some hits, try not to lose too many lings, and make sure he can't run up your ramp.
If you are able to morph your sunkens before his zeals do much serious damage, then you are significantly ahead. You can chase his zeals back to his base with your lings and make it annoying for him to expo, and then play it like vs. 1 gate assim, fast tech toss except much slower to tech. Personally I like to get about 4 hatches and then try to run him through with about 12-16 lings and 6-12 hydras right when his expo's come in and he's only warped in maybe 2 or 3 cannons.
One other tip is that you can go in and steal his gas with your scout drone--this way you can gauge how committed to his rush he is and act accordingly.
This is nearly perfect!
Although from the sentence structure you can tell you mean that your 3 Drones ready to morph into sunkens will result in 2 sunken and 1 dead creep (sine a sunken was canceled), it might not be so clear to players who have little experience with this counter. All in all this quote answers the question just right and saved me time typing the exact things. Great suggestions!
---I-Emerge
P.S. A text book example of this is shown in the game IpxZerg (red/8) vs Reach(yellow/5) @ Luna when Savior contained Reach the entire game.
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Alternative BO for a Zvp FE with Hat before pool is...
Zerg 9 Hatch 11 Pool Fast Expo
Matchups: Zvp, Zvt
Theory: This is the "safe" Zvt fast expo build where offensive bunker is more easily defended, but beware that amassing of tech units will take slightly longer because of the sacrifice in economy if he tries to test that expo with a rush(you will need to spend money for at least one sunken). Scout well to make sure you do not make sunkens you do not need. In Zvp this is another decent fast expo build that is safer than the 12 hatch - 11 pool version.
Build:
9/9 - Overlord* (send drone to expo when overlord is half done, scout with this ovyerlord as well)
9/9 - Hatchery
11/17 - Spawning Pool
12/17 - Hold Larvae for zerglings^
12/17 - 8 Zerglings
*Here you may do a extractor trick for the 10th drone. If you are not well versed at doing it fast enough to make it worth the slight cost in minerals (if any if you are really fast), do not do it. In this case the extractor trick will make it a 10/17 Hatchery.
^You may include an extractor at this point, you may wait until the expo is up, then make a pair of them simultaneously.
Again you will have 4 larvae ready to morph when the pool is finished. If he decided to tech, then do not make any lings, and begin teching hard while continously scouting.
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eeeehhhhh
y not 9 hatch 9 pool?
and not 9 ovie 9 hatch 11 pool
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There's no sense in messing around with anything but 11 hatch 10 pool if you're trying to "safe" fast expand. The other builds aren't as economically strong, and it's still faster than 12 hatch 11 pool. All of these other builds have different strengths like 8 early lings (9 hatch 9 pool 9 lord or 10/9 hatch 10/9 pool 9/9 lord extractor trick to 10/9 drone), but for the most part, 11 hatch 10 pool is as strong or stronger overall, and it's definitely the way to go if you just want to survive the rush. The other builds are for tempo rushes and quick gas, etc.
Never resort to ramp hatch unless the map dictates it - LT was the only map I ever really ramp hatched on. You can add one there later, but don't start it off there, it's much safer to keep your base tight early game if you're not gonna expand.
Also, stop taking builds off of the Battle.net forums and posting them here.
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EPT
