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Deimos
Mexico134 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Tyson get Nexus first at 12 and SOukey watch this with his 1 overlord then he Expand at 11 and follow the next Build 9 Overlord 11 Hatcht at NAt 10 Spawning pool @100% Pool => 1x lings 13 GAs 13 3rd Hatchery in another base 16 @100 gas =>Lair 16 Overlord 18 @ 50 gas => Hydra Den 17 @ 100 gas Ling Speed 19 2x Lings 21 @150 gas Grooved Spines 23 Overlord 27 6 Hydras Attack with hydras and 8 speedlings at 5:50 Focus on Pylon Forge and GAte Link to the video: Thoughts!!? | ||
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EndingLife
United States1594 Posts
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aokces
United States309 Posts
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Trutaacz
Poland101 Posts
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AF0x
United States59 Posts
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Deimos
Mexico134 Posts
1.- the attack timming 5:50 in this one, 6:20 in a standard 973 Hydra Bust 2.- Soulkey had Lair tech. In a stadard Hydra bust you don't have Lair tech so isn't an -all in- per se | ||
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TelecoM
United States10673 Posts
On January 31 2019 01:26 Deimos wrote: mmm there is a different things, but the most relevants are: 2.- Soulkey had Lair tech. In a stadard Hydra bust you don't have Lair tech so isn't an -all in- per se The lair tech doesn't make it any less all in, it actually makes it more all in as he is on less eco... The lair was simply made to throw off the Protoss and try to force a Stargate due to the scouting probe. | ||
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Deimos
Mexico134 Posts
On January 31 2019 21:30 GGzerG wrote: The lair tech doesn't make it any less all in, it actually makes it more all in as he is on less eco... The lair was simply made to throw off the Protoss and try to force a Stargate due to the scouting probe. Yes, the lair tech had this objective too but actually is necessary because corsair tech, otherwise the protoss can stay his base back his cannons and go out with 6 sairs +1 and Dt´s . For my point of wiev Lair in this case make this BO more flexible Cheeers | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
hydra bust has countless variations in timings builds combos with speedling and what not no i dont think this is something ''new'' | ||
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Ollin
Poland77 Posts
On January 31 2019 22:20 Deimos wrote: Yes, the lair tech had this objective too but actually is necessary because corsair tech, otherwise the protoss can stay his base back his cannons and go out with 6 sairs +1 and Dt´s . For my point of wiev Lair in this case make this BO more flexible Cheeers What Lair gives you exactly in that situation? You are making non-stop hydras, there is no time/money to make Spire against Corsairs if you want to bust the natural because you need high amount of Hydras... If they can't make it you just die due to low eco. IMO as well, Lair was made to just trick the Protoss. | ||
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Jealous
10149 Posts
On February 01 2019 00:00 Bhindt wrote: What Lair gives you exactly in that situation? You are making non-stop hydras, there is no time/money to make Spire against Corsairs if you want to bust the natural because you need high amount of Hydras... If they can't make it you just die due to low eco. IMO as well, Lair was made to just trick the Protoss. If your bust fails you can still get Lurker upgrade and not be totally dead, I guess? | ||
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aokces
United States309 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
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Li_Xin
51 Posts
Zerg usually go 3hatch hydra without Lair and they have 2 options: 1) Go all-in 2) Apply pressure forcing protoss to create a lot of canons and then proceed into a relatively standard game But Zerg have always had the option of going for 3hatch hydra with Lair tech... They have more options for different all-ins if they do. In this case, it looks like Soulkey mostly just got the Lair to fool Tyson into thinking there wouldn't be an early Hydralisk Den, but he got overlord speed too near the end so he probably had something prepared if Tyson had reacted in time. Soulkey could've just as easily could've went for slow overlord drop though and did elevator trick after forcing canons. He tried that against Bisu and it almost worked but it didn't because... well, it was Bisu. Pretty sure Shine has done a lot of different cheeses with 3hatch hydra on Lair tech. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On February 02 2019 07:42 Li_Xin wrote: Uhhh, what in the world is so confusing about this? This isn't 'new' at all... why did your post start with this? the rest was perfectly fine without that line. clearly OP knows less about broodwar than other posters - is that against the rules of this forum, or somehow an outrage to you? do you have to have 15+ yrs of metagame knowledge to post here? i have never played BW competitively, but like many of you i played as a child, love the game, and i like to read about the scene. i like to read these threads because the discourse about builds and strategy is really interesting. 10 other people posted similar stuff to what you said and none of them tried to make the OP feel low for asking | ||
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sheaRZerg
United States613 Posts
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hipaul
United States274 Posts
Just wanted to share some additional content. Quotes from soulkey's interview (after advancing): -This felt like a pc bang preliminaries -Against Guemchi, I didn't initially plan to go all-in, but I got a feel during the game that it'd be over if I went all-in. My original build was not to go all-in. Once I saw guemchi's game-play/condition, I got the confirmation that it'd be over if I went all-in. I usually watch Zeus (old gamer and ex-sparkyz coach)' commentary and here are some of his comments: 04:15]: Hydra den went up fast. This gives zerg 3 choices: lair hydra macro build, fast drop, or ling+lurker bust. There is a lot the zerg can do. [04:44]: from lair hydra, you can 5 hatch macro, hydra drop, or ling+lurk bust. it seems unexpected that soulkey is going offensive instead of defensive [05:34]: It seems like this is a lair hydra macro. [05:52]: As toss, you can't build too many cannons b/c you won't be able to build gates for macro. you gotta optimize how many cannons to build [06:07] But it seems like he needs to build a lot of cannons. There are a lot of z units coming [06:11] This z build is to clear the entrance buildings with hydras then bust {06:14]: Go build forge at the front, so the z units can't come close! [06:18]: P is busted [06:23]: P saw more hydras and lings keep coming. He should've sim-citied more and had probes waiting at the front. I wonder why Tyson didn't do any of those. [06:42/gg]: This did have a fake vibe, but Tyson saw it. He saw the units keep coming out with sairs and thus, should've prepared earlier | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + This build was used again in KCM Challenge Race Survival #44 played yesterday. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/402419-small-vod-thread-20?page=85#1700 Actual game spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Action vs Tyson on Whiteout www.youtube.com timestamped to 1h12m47s This is just before when the den starts and the probe dies. | ||
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Hydralich
16 Posts
1. try it worked and my opponent quit after seeing lings while trying to chase hydras 2. try it did not work because canons were too close to gateway and forge so i decided to try it with range upgrade 3. try with range upgrade did not work either brcause canons behind the forge could see my hydras | ||
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Jealous
10149 Posts
On February 22 2019 11:48 Hydralich wrote: Hey I tried this in ranked 3 times. 1. try it worked and my opponent quit after seeing lings while trying to chase hydras 2. try it did not work because canons were too close to gateway and forge so i decided to try it with range upgrade 3. try with range upgrade did not work either brcause canons behind the forge could see my hydras What MMR were you playing at, for context? | ||
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Hydralich
16 Posts
 I'd like to hear suggestions if you have for me I guess sniping canons would be a suggestion but then you lose too many hydra and cant attack because of the forge and gateway blocking your way | ||
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Jealous
10149 Posts
On February 23 2019 01:08 Hydralich wrote: I dont remember but i am in e league I'd like to hear suggestions if you have for me I guess sniping canons would be a suggestion but then you lose too many hydra and cant attack because of the forge and gateway blocking your wayReally hard to give help without a replay! I suggest you start a new thread and post the replays so you can get constructive feedback. Check out LMaster's stream/beginner Discord as well. | ||
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SC_ar
United States35 Posts
On January 31 2019 21:30 GGzerG wrote: The lair tech doesn't make it any less all in, it actually makes it more all in as he is on less eco... The lair was simply made to throw off the Protoss and try to force a Stargate due to the scouting probe. This. The lair should not be made in anticipation of hydra busting/rushing. If you can pick off the scout early and they have seen the lair, then they are typically less-inclined to add cannons. It's just a strategy based off of picking off the scout. You can do the same in ZvT with similarly devastating surprise. But you are essentially all-in after you cancel lair. You won't have time to recoup your lost time in the tech tree. | ||
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