Tyson get Nexus first at 12 and SOukey watch this with his 1 overlord then he Expand at 11 and follow the next Build

9 Overlord
11 Hatcht at NAt
10 Spawning pool
@100% Pool => 1x lings
13 GAs
13 3rd Hatchery in another base
16 @100 gas =>Lair
16 Overlord
18 @ 50 gas => Hydra Den
17 @ 100 gas Ling Speed
19 2x Lings
21 @150 gas Grooved Spines
23 Overlord
27 6 Hydras

Attack with hydras and 8 speedlings at 5:50

Focus on Pylon Forge and GAte

Link to the video:

Thoughts!!?

EndingLife

United States1214 Posts

January 29 2019 17:38 GMT

Dewalt @ 2:01!! Who is that beautiful woman? His wife?

aokces

United States297 Posts

January 29 2019 19:08 GMT

The Lair is unnecessary in a hydra bust, but since he doesn't have the speedlings to stop scouting probes the Lair does slightly throw off the protoss, and allows Soulkey the option to not go all-in. Tyson could've held it if he had warped in extra cannons as his corsair popped, and cancel them if he doesn't scout hydras. Reactionary cannons once you see the hydras outside your base is almost always too late.

Trutaacz

74 Posts

January 30 2019 09:48 GMT

Lair is necessary if there is a probe at your base. If probe does not see lair upgrade at correct time, it's already a sign that zerg is going for smth tricky

AF0x

United States42 Posts

January 30 2019 15:46 GMT

Can you point out what exactly is new about this hydra bust compared to others? Seems like the same timing to me, no?

Deimos

Mexico119 Posts

January 30 2019 16:26 GMT

mmm there is a different things, but the most relevants are:

1.- the attack timming 5:50 in this one, 6:20 in a standard 973 Hydra Bust
2.- Soulkey had Lair tech. In a stadard Hydra bust you don't have Lair tech so isn't an -all in- per se

GGzerG

United States9303 Posts

January 31 2019 12:30 GMT

On January 31 2019 01:26 Deimos wrote:
mmm there is a different things, but the most relevants are:

2.- Soulkey had Lair tech. In a stadard Hydra bust you don't have Lair tech so isn't an -all in- per se

The lair tech doesn't make it any less all in, it actually makes it more all in as he is on less eco... The lair was simply made to throw off the Protoss and try to force a Stargate due to the scouting probe.

Deimos

Mexico119 Posts

January 31 2019 13:20 GMT

On January 31 2019 21:30 GGzerG wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes, the lair tech had this objective too but actually is necessary because corsair tech, otherwise the protoss can stay his base back his cannons and go out with 6 sairs +1 and Dt´s . For my point of wiev Lair in this case make this BO more flexible

Cheeers

onlystar

United States691 Posts

January 31 2019 13:49 GMT

ehm i cant imagine no zerg ever did a hydra bust faking lair tech etc in fact im sure lol
hydra bust has countless variations in timings builds combos with speedling and what not no i dont think this is something ''new''

Bhindt

Poland26 Posts

January 31 2019 15:00 GMT

#10

On January 31 2019 22:20 Deimos wrote:
Yes, the lair tech had this objective too but actually is necessary because corsair tech, otherwise the protoss can stay his base back his cannons and go out with 6 sairs +1 and Dt´s . For my point of wiev Lair in this case make this BO more flexible

Cheeers

What Lair gives you exactly in that situation? You are making non-stop hydras, there is no time/money to make Spire against Corsairs if you want to bust the natural because you need high amount of Hydras... If they can't make it you just die due to low eco.

IMO as well, Lair was made to just trick the Protoss.

Jealous

Niger7167 Posts

January 31 2019 20:23 GMT

#11

On February 01 2019 00:00 Bhindt wrote:

Show nested quote +

If your bust fails you can still get Lurker upgrade and not be totally dead, I guess?

aokces

United States297 Posts

January 31 2019 21:41 GMT

#12

What is 973 Hydra Bust - the standard hydra bust? Do the numbers refer to a ratio/# of something?

ortseam

967 Posts

January 31 2019 21:55 GMT

#13

It's just the number of drones on minerals at your 1st/2nd/3rd base

zobz

Canada2170 Posts

January 31 2019 23:01 GMT

#14

3 hatch hydra is not all-in anyway. There have been countless games of Zergs going 3 hatch hydra with 10 or less hydras into 5 hatch before lair for a very reasonable mid game. Protosses have only recently gotten better at countering this. Zergs are not doing it as much lately but it used to be really strong and I imagine it's still winnable at least for Zerg. That being the backup plan in case the 3 hatch hydra gets scouted, or somehow the cannons hold very well, the lair is not instrumental at all. The spire is late anyway, and you don't really need lurkers. In that case the lair just means less money for adding hatcheries, and a slower middle game.

TT1

Canada8938 Posts

February 01 2019 00:49 GMT

#15

this style has been around for a while, also some ppl like herO would cancel lair (if probe left base or died early) > double hydra den > hydra allin

Malongo

Chile3281 Posts

February 01 2019 08:05 GMT

#16

Not an expert in timings but Tysons Stargate seemed at least 10 sec late. (looking at his gas at 3:57)

Li_Xin

39 Posts

February 01 2019 22:42 GMT

#17

Uhhh, what in the world is so confusing about this? This isn't 'new' at all...

Zerg usually go 3hatch hydra without Lair and they have 2 options:
1) Go all-in
2) Apply pressure forcing protoss to create a lot of canons and then proceed into a relatively standard game

But Zerg have always had the option of going for 3hatch hydra with Lair tech... They have more options for different all-ins if they do. In this case, it looks like Soulkey mostly just got the Lair to fool Tyson into thinking there wouldn't be an early Hydralisk Den, but he got overlord speed too near the end so he probably had something prepared if Tyson had reacted in time.

Soulkey could've just as easily could've went for slow overlord drop though and did elevator trick after forcing canons. He tried that against Bisu and it almost worked but it didn't because... well, it was Bisu.

Pretty sure Shine has done a lot of different cheeses with 3hatch hydra on Lair tech.

brickrd

United States4566 Posts

February 04 2019 04:11 GMT

#18

On February 02 2019 07:42 Li_Xin wrote:
Uhhh, what in the world is so confusing about this? This isn't 'new' at all...

why did your post start with this? the rest was perfectly fine without that line. clearly OP knows less about broodwar than other posters - is that against the rules of this forum, or somehow an outrage to you? do you have to have 15+ yrs of metagame knowledge to post here?

i have never played BW competitively, but like many of you i played as a child, love the game, and i like to read about the scene. i like to read these threads because the discourse about builds and strategy is really interesting. 10 other people posted similar stuff to what you said and none of them tried to make the OP feel low for asking

sheaRZerg

United States583 Posts

February 05 2019 02:50 GMT

#19

I haven't watched the vod closely. But the initial outline looks like a build that was popular a while back for a fast hydra/lurker drop. I wonder if that was the plan and soulkey just caught tyson off guard to the point where he decided he could just pump hydras and win?

hipaul

United States274 Posts

February 12 2019 05:23 GMT

#20

Sup bros,

Just wanted to share some additional content.

Quotes from soulkey's interview (after advancing):
-This felt like a pc bang preliminaries
-Against Guemchi, I didn't initially plan to go all-in, but I got a feel during the game that it'd be over if I went all-in. My original build was not to go all-in. Once I saw guemchi's game-play/condition, I got the confirmation that it'd be over if I went all-in.

I usually watch Zeus (old gamer and ex-sparkyz coach)' commentary and here are some of his comments:

04:15]: Hydra den went up fast. This gives zerg 3 choices: lair hydra macro build, fast drop, or ling+lurker bust. There is a lot the zerg can do.
[04:44]: from lair hydra, you can 5 hatch macro, hydra drop, or ling+lurk bust. it seems unexpected that soulkey is going offensive instead of defensive
[05:34]: It seems like this is a lair hydra macro.
[05:52]: As toss, you can't build too many cannons b/c you won't be able to build gates for macro. you gotta optimize how many cannons to build
[06:07] But it seems like he needs to build a lot of cannons. There are a lot of z units coming
[06:11] This z build is to clear the entrance buildings with hydras then bust
{06:14]: Go build forge at the front, so the z units can't come close!
[06:18]: P is busted
[06:23]: P saw more hydras and lings keep coming. He should've sim-citied more and had probes waiting at the front. I wonder why Tyson didn't do any of those.
[06:42/gg]: This did have a fake vibe, but Tyson saw it. He saw the units keep coming out with sairs and thus, should've prepared earlier