Yesterday flash showed a really cool pvt build on his streaming channel. The build is basically getting the first arbiter really quick and going for an unbelievably early recall attack
What do you think about this build?.
Flash's gameplay:
The build order: 8 pylon 9 gas 11 gate (start mining gas with 3 probes) 14 core 15 pylon (at the corner of your base) 20 citadel (at the corner pylon, make goon right after core finish) 21 pylon (send scouting probe, goon at ramp) 23 stargate, templar archives (make stargate a little bit faster if you seek perfection) 26 nexus at nat 29 arbiter tribunal, make dt 29 ~ 35 send dt to terran base, dt is for restraining FD type rush from terran, not aiming for a kill. if you see terran is prepared for a dt (they should), just stay back.
35 arbiter 39 goon (2nd goon) 49〜53 add 4 gateways after you got the first arbiter, make the 2nd arbiter asap, research goon range, zealot speed, and recall, pump zealots&goons from 5 gateways.
send arbiter to terran base when arbiter have ~125 energy
Many vods about 29 arbiter build have been uploaded this week!
Flash's new 29 arbiter build "29 arbiter build ver 1.111" : + Show Spoiler +
The difference from original build: 1: hide 2nd pylon outside the base and build cidedal there. 2: research air attack upgrade and make early 3rd pylon for camouflage 3: make forge right after start making 1st arbiter, make cannon at mineral lines if vult drop is a possibility. 4: if dt sees a sign of early aggression from terran, research stasis first.
Don’t like it for a more skilled opponent. Flash makes it look easy on this noobie but this would die to a 2 fac so hard. And t should see it coming a mile away and this opponent had no army or defenses and the recall really isn’t that fast to where Terran should have so little. Nice stasises though. Surprise and getting building kills are important in this game to help flash win.
more of a meme build for the fans, it seems way too flimsy early game... he did it against a 1800 terran, flashes mechanics are insane alone he probably coulda done anything vs this guy and won tbh...
I think this is more of a fun build than an actually viable one, although it's hilarious that it's FlaSh that showcases these builds for Protoss.
Also, not quite sure where this stemmed from but I remember seeing a stream vod of him getting recall-rushed quite early in TvP, so maybe he wanted to try it out?
On November 06 2018 18:03 kogeT wrote: Peru national build.
This.
If you learned the game in the past few years on Iccup it was quite common to face this kind of play, not only but seemingly mainly from south-americans.
They figured out that an (early) arbiter in itself causes a lot of problems for any not-so-high-level-Terran and that you can almost always get away with it behind the DT. Of course a good Terran can defend and punish this but, I find, on low/mid-level (or with high skill-difference like Flash vs that guy) the fast arbiter is relatively harder to deal with, similar to how a lot of cheeses or mass-X-strategies can work on lower levels but not against pros.
The build gives you not only the threat of a recall early on but also invis and stasis soon after for regular engagements in case Terran is prepared for the recall. If you cannot recall as soon as you have the arbiter with enough energy you just expand once or twice while increasing army and arbiter count, keeping Terran occupied with multiple recall-attempts. Additionally, should Terran find the time and cool to push out, armies with arbiters are just generally harder to deal with, more so if Terran is operating from only 2 base and is not maxed, having only few vessels without many EMPs. Chances are high you will get the one good engagement you need in this situation. The initial DT will force many over-reactions, too, in that specific situation, and so will the threat of the recall. If Terran stays calm and also takes a 3rd at the right time it can become a normal game, but with more arbiters than usual and the constant pressure of recalls during Terran's macro-phase and during the big push.
There are answers for Terran to all this but they're surely harder to find than to just learn that build and rely on the relative imba that arbiters are on a certain level. (sorry, it's he sourness talking)
seems like a slightly flimsier and faster variant of dt expand into 2 base arbiter. very abusive style but you my as well go for the more stable variant
How come corsair/goon hasn't been a viable strategy since 05? I know siege tanks can move out of the web but if you land a few good ones you can really let your army survive alot longer to deal damage while tanks are moving away. The main reason why you have to get a lot of zealots to suicide is to counteract the siege tank splash damage, but if you take away a good amount of tanks from the equation even a few seconds can be crucial to snowball army advantage of who wins the fight. Corsair can land d-web more consistently and often since the corsair itself is much faster to reproduce and they are quicker than an arbiter so you can dodge EMPs better, although you'd have to spread out your sairs to make sure they don't clump.
I'm thinking just a fleet of 6-8 corsairs that are kept alive and dweb every engagement you're ready for another one usually. Then the rest you can get goons and a fewer zealots than normal when the d-webs expire.
On November 09 2018 08:55 Moopower wrote: How come corsair/goon hasn't been a viable strategy since 05? I know siege tanks can move out of the web but if you land a few good ones you can really let your army survive alot longer to deal damage while tanks are moving away. The main reason why you have to get a lot of zealots to suicide is to counteract the siege tank splash damage, but if you take away a good amount of tanks from the equation even a few seconds can be crucial to snowball army advantage of who wins the fight. Corsair can land d-web more consistently and often since the corsair itself is much faster to reproduce and they are quicker than an arbiter so you can dodge EMPs better, although you'd have to spread out your sairs to make sure they don't clump.
I'm thinking just a fleet of 6-8 corsairs that are kept alive and dweb every engagement you're ready for another one usually. Then the rest you can get goons and a fewer zealots than normal when the d-webs expire.
On November 09 2018 08:55 Moopower wrote: How come corsair/goon hasn't been a viable strategy since 05? I know siege tanks can move out of the web but if you land a few good ones you can really let your army survive alot longer to deal damage while tanks are moving away. The main reason why you have to get a lot of zealots to suicide is to counteract the siege tank splash damage, but if you take away a good amount of tanks from the equation even a few seconds can be crucial to snowball army advantage of who wins the fight. Corsair can land d-web more consistently and often since the corsair itself is much faster to reproduce and they are quicker than an arbiter so you can dodge EMPs better, although you'd have to spread out your sairs to make sure they don't clump.
I'm thinking just a fleet of 6-8 corsairs that are kept alive and dweb every engagement you're ready for another one usually. Then the rest you can get goons and a fewer zealots than normal when the d-webs expire.
Very mechanically intensive, protoss army scales badly Vs Terran and this is basically useless supply when not dwebing, EMP screws you over big time. Some reasons off the top of my head.
If you can split up the corsairs to different control groups the game isn’t over. No reason to bunch vs Terran ground unlike vs muta scourge in pvz. It could still work. Toss haven’t gone far enough out on the diving board of theory. Remember there was a time when people said opening forge first would never work in any matchup and look where we are today.
So waiting on 1 arbiter and getting it EMPed is not game over vs getting 2-3 corsairs getting EMPed? Arbiters barely have any atk value so they are essentially taking up supply just as corsairs would. So for 2 corsairs the wait time to get a couple d-webs vs one stasis I'd argue is much faster time frame. Sure it doesn't disable as long but the effects it has and pros are something to consider.
You obviously would not stack corsairs together, you'd move it in a control group and when you come to engage in a fight, you split them like how zerg players practice muta splitting for irradiates.
On November 11 2018 12:59 Moopower wrote: So waiting on 1 arbiter and getting it EMPed is not game over vs getting 2-3 corsairs getting EMPed? Arbiters barely have any atk value so they are essentially taking up supply just as corsairs would. So for 2 corsairs the wait time to get a couple d-webs vs one stasis I'd argue is much faster time frame. Sure it doesn't disable as long but the effects it has and pros are something to consider.
You obviously would not stack corsairs together, you'd move it in a control group and when you come to engage in a fight, you split them like how zerg players practice muta splitting for irradiates.
It's strictly worse. You can only assess the merits of one option in comparison to how it measures against the alternatives. Corsairs are worse. They just are. That's why pros use arbiters. They know what they're doing, they're trying to win.
You can sometimes win with corsairs, just as you can sometimes win with scouts. But it's easier to use the stronger strategies because they're stronger.
To add to the corsair vs arbiter discussion, even if you think corsairs cost-for-cost are comparable to arbiters in push breaking (seems not to be the case, but it might be underexplored), recall definitively tips the scales in favor of arbiters. PvT isn't just about killing the Terran push, it's also about pinning the Terran back so you can get up enough bases and gateways to afford otherwise uneconomical trades. Arbiters happen to do both push breaking and pinning extremely well and so are favored
I think the idea is once your economy is safe at 4 base, Get Corsair and arbiter not one and not the other. Arbiter can’t be discounted due to stasis and cloak field!! So I’d say maybe 6-8 saiir, split up, maybe energy upgrade, and 2-3 arbiter wiith stasis recall and energy upgrade. Expensive but still cheaper than carrier and can always make carrier later since you’ve made fleet beacon.
On November 12 2018 08:47 TonDan wrote: any reason this doesn't just die to vulture drops? No robotics/observers?
General PvT awareness. Pylons outside your base on drop routes, dragoons waiting for the drop, pylons blocking the route behind mineral lines etc.
if that was the case then robotics wouldn't be a mainstay in every pvt early game.
No, you don’t just need robo for vult drops. You need them for reaver, zealot bombs, obs etc. Without robo you can’t take and hold a third, nor break an early push.
On November 11 2018 06:43 f10eqq wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoi50vbSn88 Stork losing with this build lol. If the best PvTer ever loses with it, it's gotta be an awful build. Fun to play around with though.
Watched it a few days ago while it was still up.Decent game actually but he had a bad recall about 15 mins in straight on a minefield lost a dozen goons instantly.
On November 12 2018 08:47 TonDan wrote: any reason this doesn't just die to vulture drops? No robotics/observers?
General PvT awareness. Pylons outside your base on drop routes, dragoons waiting for the drop, pylons blocking the route behind mineral lines etc.
if that was the case then robotics wouldn't be a mainstay in every pvt early game.
No, you don’t just need robo for vult drops. You need them for reaver, zealot bombs, obs etc. Without robo you can’t take and hold a third, nor break an early push.
this build in particular definitely dies to 2 base vult drop, it's not a serious build
fac cc port hits at ~7:00 (can get pushed to ~6:30 depending on opener)
at this point flash has... 1 dt, 3 rangeless goons, and 1 arb about to finish. even if you see it coming it'd be very hard to defend
I didn't notice that this thread got updated until now, so I just wanted to say to OP that I think your effort to assemble a little library of resources about this build is cool, regardless of how strong or weak the build is. This type of thing has the potential to be quite useful to a lot of people.
I didn’t check replay but I’m almost positive it was this exact build. I defended his DT and took literally 0 dmg so I was confident to move out with my about 4-5 scans, then he recalled in my main.
It was so early that I was confused, thinking he was just a scrub tryna pull an obvious DT rush. Will scan for stargates now!
On December 26 2018 03:53 crbox wrote: Oh damn. Yeah I played against this.
I didn’t check replay but I’m almost positive it was this exact build. I defended his DT and took literally 0 dmg so I was confident to move out with my about 4-5 scans, then he recalled in my main.
It was so early that I was confused, thinking he was just a scrub tryna pull an obvious DT rush. Will scan for stargates now!
Nice, another one bites the dust lol. What server are you playing on crbox? We should practice.
EPT
