I'm not disputing that Queens can be used successfully against Mech, I just don't think your analysis shows why it works. The resource cost of the queens in isolation doesn't matter that much, you have to see it as part of a larger whole.
Look at Jaedong's game against Flash on Destination this year (sorry I'm at work and don't have the link handy). If I remember it correctly he lost quite a few queens before they could kill a tank, and he used them all just for one break, it wasn't a continuous sapping at all. So if you analyze the resource cost of the queens vs the tanks it wasn't that good, maybe even negative, and that's not even counting indirect costs like the attention to use them or how you have to pay for them way in advance and then sit around doing nothing while they build energy.
But he still won the game, because the queens did *enough* damage that his hydras/lings could break through the remaining mech. If the queen money was spent on extra ground units or mutas, it probably would have failed, because it's just so ridiculously hard to break through a large and well-positioned mech army. And you have to break it all at once, not just pick off stray units because otherwise they'll soon be sieging up outside your expansions and you lose.
I see what you're saying. The way I look at the situation is idealized, I admit. There are no guarantees a Zerg player can use Spawn Broodling before a Queen gets killed, so they aren't as valuable as I make them seem. What I can say is that if a Zerg player can keep the Queens alive and consistently get shots off on the expensive Mech units, it is good for him. If it's too hard for him to use Queens and he can't help but lose them to Turret fire or whatever, then they're less than useless and shouldn't be made.
Dead9's comment:
u could also look the eng upg like this: assume each queen casts 1 broodling before dying assume you have enough time to upgrade energy before making queens assume the 15 seconds extra regen time for +12.5 energy is negligible
1 queen 1 broodling takes 100 energy (for first cast) and costs 100/100 thus each point of energy costs 1/1
eng upgrade costs 150/150 thus it needs to provide 150 points of energy to break even on cost
eng upgrade provides 12.5 energy thus you need to build 12 queens after eng upgrade to break even
if you adjust the assumptions (1.5 or 2 casts per queen, add a time constraint etc) it tends to look worse for the energy upgrade
you can do the same thing for all the other energy upgrades, they all suck for the most part unless they provide more utility (plague and swarm on one defiler for example)
Buy 12 Queens and get 1 Spawn Broodling spell for free. I think that's a great way to think about how the Queen Energy upgrade works. Honestly it isn't really worth it unless going mass Queens in the super lategame is a legit strategy.
There is a useful energy upgrade actually, and that is the energy upgrade for the High Templar in PvZ. Since Psionic Storm costs 75 energy and each High Templar spawns with 12 more energy, you basically get 1 free Storm for every 6 High Templar you build. The energy upgrade is useful once you can start mass-producing them.
Ty2's comment:
Next experiment: Is ensnaring mineral lines worth it?
On November 17 2017 08:36 Ty2 wrote: Next experiment: Is ensnaring mineral lines worth it?
That has already been done and the interesting finding is that it doesn't really make a difference, the workers still mine almost as efficiently as they do when not ensnared.
[*]It takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds to go from 50 to 150 energy.
[*]It takes 1 minute and 59 seconds to go from 62 to 150 energy.
This is wrong. It takes 74 seconds to gain 100 energy in Starcraft...
No idea how you got to these numbers, but I cannot take any of these seriously if you are posting figures this grossly incorrect.
I know you are trolling because right above those data I explained how I got the numbers.
[b]The Method
I used a stopwatch to measure the time it takes in seconds for Queens and all their upgrades to complete. The "Fastest" game setting was used.
Even so, here's proof that I was correct. This is the featured game on Bisu's YouTube channel.
Skip ahead to 26:10 in the video, where Bisu does a Storm drop. At 26:15 the High Templar has 42 energy after it does the storm. At 26:35 when he selects it again, it has 57 energy.
From this I conclude you have it backwards: It takes 100 seconds to gain 74 energy. I assume Blizzard hasn't changed this with the advent of SC: Remastered.
On November 17 2017 08:36 Ty2 wrote: Next experiment: Is ensnaring mineral lines worth it?
That has already been done and the interesting finding is that it doesn't really make a difference, the workers still mine almost as efficiently as they do when not ensnared.
like 15 years ago I had a phase where I would always ensnare scvs/probes before lurker drops. I stopped doing it for a reason I guess - normally wasn't viable to have ensnare ready during the stage where I would be dropping lurkers, and queen energy is normally spent better elsewhere, but I have some pretty sweet memories of peons trying to escape and just being like.. fuck we r 2 slow.
There is a useful energy upgrade actually, and that is the energy upgrade for the High Templar in PvZ. Since Psionic Storm costs 75 energy and each High Templar spawns with 12 more energy, you basically get 1 free Storm for every 6 High Templar you build. The energy upgrade is useful once you can start mass-producing them.
I think getting to your first and second storm faster with HTs is the primary benefit of the energy upgrade.
Even if you don't make a ton of HT, a small chance of happening to have 155 energy instead of 143 energy during an engagement is huge. In my opinion, this is more significant than that same small chance of 155 energy vs 143 with Queens, because Psi Storm is so strong (much stronger than Broodling for the most part), and HT are so fragile (much harder to keep alive than Queens).
energy upgrades don't kick in until you start building a unit after the energy upgrade has already finished. you'll get energy for your queens much faster by building them before getting the energy upgrade than by waiting. Not like you need 12 of them to have broodling at the same time for them to be useful.
broodling might not even be the best ability on the queen vs terran really, ensnare and parasite are incredibly strong if used correctly. doesn't ensnare like negate the usage of stim or something? or ensnared units get a massive fire rate and movement speed debuff, such that when they use stim they're just like normal marines? regardless, ensnared M&M is soooo weak. the problem is that ensnare's radius is kinda small so you the terran really has to be clumping the marines.
i always parasite dropships and vessels though, because basically no terran will ever kill the unit or cleanse it. it's like having a free map hack...
broodling is obvs really good against mech under the right circumstances, but it takes a looooooot of attention and finese to split 12 queens onto 12 tanks without running them through vessels and or goliaths (while maintaining vision with an overlord or commanding the battle that is giving you vision in the first place). typically you move command them from a considerable distance away such that they don't all go in 1 by 1 when you issue the broodling command.
There is a useful energy upgrade actually, and that is the energy upgrade for the High Templar in PvZ. Since Psionic Storm costs 75 energy and each High Templar spawns with 12 more energy, you basically get 1 free Storm for every 6 High Templar you build. The energy upgrade is useful once you can start mass-producing them.
I think getting to your first and second storm faster with HTs is the primary benefit of the energy upgrade.
Even if you don't make a ton of HT, a small chance of happening to have 155 energy instead of 143 energy during an engagement is huge. In my opinion, this is more significant than that same small chance of 155 energy vs 143 with Queens, because Psi Storm is so strong (much stronger than Broodling for the most part), and HT are so fragile (much harder to keep alive than Queens).
Absolutely. I was always scratching myself when I saw progamers not getting it, even if they had 3-4-5 bases...
On February 17 2018 03:25 Liquid`Drone wrote: energy upgrades don't kick in until you start building a unit after the energy upgrade has already finished
I don`t think this is true.
The only spellcaster that in nearly all circumstances can benefit from an energy upgrade before starting the unit is the arbiter. With other units it`s quite sitatuational and game will dictate your choice by priority, but most of the time, you`ll find more use resreaching abilities first. Personally if I can afford, I try to upgrade energy capacity for all used spellcasters because I found them worthwhile.
On February 17 2018 03:25 Liquid`Drone wrote: energy upgrades don't kick in until you start building a unit after the energy upgrade has already finished. you'll get energy for your queens much faster by building them before getting the energy upgrade than by waiting. Not like you need 12 of them to have broodling at the same time for them to be useful.
if you can only afford the energy upgrade earlier, making one queen is pointless, since Terran will usually have more than just one tank
whoa, just tested, and queens are actually different from arbiters in this regard. With arbiters, if you start an arbiter while the energy upgrade is researching and the energy upgrade finishes before the arbiter finishes, the arbiter will spawn with 50/250 energy. the same scenario with queens, starting them while the energy upgrade is researching and the upgrade finishing before the queens finish, has them spawning with 62/250.
I had tested this with arbiters before and assumed it was the same for all spellcasters - apparently it's not, sorry about that. ;p
It's situational though. If you are talking about a late game make 12 queens type, then sure, it's good if you have started the energy upgrade a while before you make the switch. but if you have enough money for 12 queens, you'll have energy for broodling much faster if you start 10 of those queens together with the energy upgrade than if you start the upgrade and wait for it to be nearing completion so the queens you eventually build spawn with 62 instead of 50 energy. ;p Personally, I often make queens right after the queens nest finishes (usually like 4-5), and then those queens won't benefit at all from the energy upgrade because they spawn a long time before the upgrade finishes, and I don't necessarily make any more queens for a long time after those 4-5.
Eri, those queens do profit from it. One: they`ll have more capacity and two: they`ll regenerate mana faster, a veteran like you, should know the ins and outs of this queen stuff.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/w9SeOVO.gif)
