I have been watching plenty of TvZs lately and many terrans were losing expansions to zerglings under dark swarm. Zerg would slowly push with a couple of dark swarms and send cracklings in to finish off the command center. Some terrans had siege tanks there, sometimes even bunkers with marines. The bunkers obviously dont do much against swarm and the siege tanks are not all that effective either. At that point I though, why do they never put firebats into those bunkers? Firebats deal 100% damage under swarm and their splash should be great against lings so I assume they would be the obvious choice to defend expansions in the late game, right? Is there some bug with the bunker I am not aware of? Do firebats not work correctly in bunkers or maybe dont deal damage under swarm when they are inside bunkers?
Maybe we can have a discussion about the pros and cons of firebats? Thoughs?
Mod Edit: (moved thread to strategy section) This should be on the strategy forum.
Reason of no firebats (usually) is that in the midgame the terran should have the map presence and be the one putting the zerg in a defensive stance. Vessels are also a better gas investment. Later you just switch to mech. In case of SK terran firebats are very much used. Another factor is that they have low range (bad vs Lurkers), don't attack up and deal 50% dmg to medium units (Lurkers/Defilers) and 25% to large (Ultras).
You will see terrans getting a few firebats if their natural is under swarm.
I think one of the reasons why a terran wouldn't get firebats is if they think they can hold it off by cutting off reinforcements and irradiating defilers. Since if they do hold it off the extra firebats would be a waste.
Can you link to some of the games you were watching?
firebats are underrated in tvz. early on with standard 3/4/5 rax build u have 2-4 firebats with army to help against ling surrounds/backstabs. after that its usually produced only when your base is under duress from dark swarm, or utliised in a timing to break a zerg base.
but as game progresses on even SK Terran with firebats becomes weak and inefficient and difficult to effectively control against lategame zerg with defilers and ultras. this is why most terran do mech transition rather than SK terran the entire game.
On February 22 2016 07:44 Scarbo wrote: Reason of no firebats (usually) is that in the midgame the terran should have the map presence and be the one putting the zerg in a defensive stance.
But it still happens plenty of times that the zerg does a 1 defiler + a dozen zerglings attack on an expansion. I am talking late game here with the terran having like 5 bases. A defiler and a couple of zerglings can snipe command centers really quickly.
On February 22 2016 07:44 Scarbo wrote: Vessels are also a better gas investment.
Firebats are 25 gas each. Building like 1 at each base is not going to be that big a deal in the late game.
On February 22 2016 07:44 Scarbo wrote: Another factor is that they have low range (bad vs Lurkers), don't attack up and deal 50% dmg to medium units (Lurkers/Defilers) and 25% to large (Ultras).
The range is not a problem because zerg places the dark swarm directly on top of the bunkers to give the zerglings a chance to attack. This means that the lurkers have to go there as well. And even with reduced damage output firebats still have splash damage which can help tremendously.
I am not saying they are like some kind of secret super weapon. I am just asking why I almost never see any firebats placed in bunkers to defend expansions. I see marines sometimes, but never any firebats. But marines are useless against swarm.
On February 22 2016 11:31 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Can you link to some of the games you were watching?
I didnt have anything prepared, but maybe I can dig something up soon. That is going to be a lot of digging though so if anybody else feels like linking a game themselves please do so.
Everything you said is basically bollocks because lategame the barracks will be flying all over the map. In midgame, where this is actually possible, it works exactly like I said. Gas is an issue because you're teching up (each factory 100gas, vessels, upgrades and shit). Marines go on bunkers because once you mech switch their value goes down with time since you're not gonna be making upgrades for them. You're not building them to go on bunkers you're just taking advantage of the marines you already have.
Also how come zerglings snipe CCs? Last I checked they can fly.
On February 22 2016 20:51 Scarbo wrote: Everything you said is basically bollocks because lategame the barracks will be flying all over the map.
So what? Just keep 1 rax on the ground to build 2 or 3 Firebats. Thats not too difficult.
On February 22 2016 20:51 Scarbo wrote: Marines go on bunkers because once you mech switch their value goes down with time since you're not gonna be making upgrades for them.
But marines are almost useless, with or without bunkers. Building the bunker is kind of a waste when you only put marines in it because they deal 0 damage under the swarm. Zergs will not attack your expansions in the late game without swarm.
On February 22 2016 20:51 Scarbo wrote: Also how come zerglings snipe CCs? Last I checked they can fly.
And last I checked human players are not robots. How come spider mines kill dragoons? Last I checked dragoons had high enough range to kill them without triggering them... But seriously, it happens all the time. Even *pro* koreans are sometimes too distracted by all the crazy going on in the game. Foreigners even more so. And even if the lings dont kill the CC its still pretty bad to lose all your SCVs and being forced to lift.
Actions go up in value as the game progresses because you have more shit to do than you have actions available. Even pros can't control everything lategame. Technically you can keep 1 rax in your base and do that but there are a lot of other things you can use your actions for that will prevent the attacks just as much, if not better. A few examples are laying more mines, building more turrets (vs drops), macroing even better etc. You also have to factor in the opportunity cost of having 1 less rax giving you vision. All in all it's not a good decision, specially considering that just because you have a bunker with a few firebats doesn't mean you get to automatically defend any attack with swarm. If the guy has 1 lurker you're already in bad shape, if there's an ultra involved you're in really bad shape.
Marines are almost useless, I agree, that's why you don't see pros building bunkers lategame. It happens sometimes, but it's far from the norm.
The comparison of losing a CC vs goons to mines is just sad. If you're seriously losing all your SCVs and the CC to a zergling attack I guarantee you won't have the mechanics or awareness to build firebats lategame.
Edit: forgot to mention that if you're really mad at all the zergs destroying you with swarm, try using medics to block the ramp and floating a building over them. Way better as it can kill infinite lings and works against ultras as well.
On February 23 2016 08:15 Scarbo wrote: Actions go up in value as the game progresses because you have more shit to do than you have actions available. Even pros can't control everything lategame. Technically you can keep 1 rax in your base and do that but there are a lot of other things you can use your actions for that will prevent the attacks just as much, if not better. A few examples are laying more mines, building more turrets (vs drops), macroing even better etc. You also have to factor in the opportunity cost of having 1 less rax giving you vision. All in all it's not a good decision, specially considering that just because you have a bunker with a few firebats doesn't mean you get to automatically defend any attack with swarm. If the guy has 1 lurker you're already in bad shape, if there's an ultra involved you're in really bad shape.
Marines are almost useless, I agree, that's why you don't see pros building bunkers lategame. It happens sometimes, but it's far from the norm.
The comparison of losing a CC vs goons to mines is just sad. If you're seriously losing all your SCVs and the CC to a zergling attack I guarantee you won't have the mechanics or awareness to build firebats lategame.
Edit: forgot to mention that if you're really mad at all the zergs destroying you with swarm, try using medics to block the ramp and floating a building over them. Way better as it can kill infinite lings and works against ultras as well.
Dude, I am not even playing. I am watching Foreigner and Korean tournaments and this stuff is happening. I am not talking about D- newbs losing to zerglings. I am talking about pros who get their expansions raped.
You said:
Actions go up in value as the game progresses because you have more shit to do than you have actions available.
and this is exactly the reason why I think Firebats would be good! Building 1 Firebat and sending it to a bunker is a trivial task. You can do that ezpz; and the best thing is: You can train it. But what you gain is that zergling runbys will be way less powerful. The value you get out of those few actions would be super high. Or at least, thats what I guess it will be.
Thats the point. I am not sure. I think that one or two Firebats could make a huge difference.
On February 23 2016 08:15 Scarbo wrote: Actions go up in value as the game progresses because you have more shit to do than you have actions available. Even pros can't control everything lategame. Technically you can keep 1 rax in your base and do that but there are a lot of other things you can use your actions for that will prevent the attacks just as much, if not better. A few examples are laying more mines, building more turrets (vs drops), macroing even better etc. You also have to factor in the opportunity cost of having 1 less rax giving you vision. All in all it's not a good decision, specially considering that just because you have a bunker with a few firebats doesn't mean you get to automatically defend any attack with swarm. If the guy has 1 lurker you're already in bad shape, if there's an ultra involved you're in really bad shape.
Marines are almost useless, I agree, that's why you don't see pros building bunkers lategame. It happens sometimes, but it's far from the norm.
The comparison of losing a CC vs goons to mines is just sad. If you're seriously losing all your SCVs and the CC to a zergling attack I guarantee you won't have the mechanics or awareness to build firebats lategame.
Edit: forgot to mention that if you're really mad at all the zergs destroying you with swarm, try using medics to block the ramp and floating a building over them. Way better as it can kill infinite lings and works against ultras as well.
Dude, I am not even playing. I am watching Foreigner and Korean tournaments and this stuff is happening. I am not talking about D- newbs losing to zerglings. I am talking about pros who get their expansions raped.
Actions go up in value as the game progresses because you have more shit to do than you have actions available.
and this is exactly the reason why I think Firebats would be good! Building 1 Firebat and sending it to a bunker is a trivial task. You can do that ezpz; and the best thing is: You can train it. But what you gain is that zergling runbys will be way less powerful. The value you get out of those few actions would be super high. Or at least, thats what I guess it will be.
Thats the point. I am not sure. I think that one or two Firebats could make a huge difference.
I thought you were talking about your play and comparing it to what pros do. If it's just about them what I can say is that every time I've seen a pro lose a CC to ground-only units it was due to negligence. They're humans too after all. I've actually seen a pro look at the CC being attacked, tell the SCVs to mine somewhere else and just ignoring the fact that CCs can fly.
Edit: You may be right on the action thing with the firebats though, although I still think not making them is best. Pros: can kill small to medium amounts of cracklings (idk how many exactly) under swarm. Useful even if you don't micro Cons: require stimpack micro against more than a few lings, require bunker, 1 less rax giving vision, weak vs Lurkers/Ultras I can see this being useful vs those pesky peruvians that base their whole game around backstabbing since they can't control an engagement to save their lives.
Against zerglings, firebats are perfect for defending very small chokes, and typically, terrans will cover ramps with firebats. A great option for firebats is doing a drop with firebats behind the minerals, because zerglings will have to file one-by-one to kill them.
Firebats don't see that much play because the typical tech progression for Terran is to start securing large parts of the map with spider mines. Vultures are faster, have a longer range, are cheaper than firebats, and can drop mines. Covering cliffs with tanks, and blocking entrances with mines facilitates the function of building a mechanized army, and is extremely efficient against virtually everything. At that point in the game, a single bunker with firebats is going to do very little, and is just gas and supply spent on something that is purely for static defense.
A potential drawback to using firebats in a bunker for chokepoint defense is that a burrowed lurker under swarm will out-range the firebats. Spider mines will either make lurkers very inefficient against defenses that include tanks and/or science vessels, and are also great against ultralisks, whereas ultra/ling eats through un-microed marine/medic/firebat.
One thing I will say, though: if you play against someone who always goes all-in lings every game, make a bunker with firebats and watch that person squirm.
The main role for the firebat is to be a support unit for marines and medics against large numbers of zerglings, and they're also good for roasting drones.
The problem with Firebats in a bunker is that they do not defend much besides said Bunker itself, they simply lack the range. A Zerg can usually just run by...
On February 24 2016 08:21 Freakling wrote: The problem with Firebats in a bunker is that they do not defend much besides said Bunker itself, they simply lack the range. A Zerg can usually just run by...
Well, you don't have to put ONLY firebats in the bunker.
On February 24 2016 08:21 Freakling wrote: The problem with Firebats in a bunker is that they do not defend much besides said Bunker itself, they simply lack the range. A Zerg can usually just run by...
The questions was NOT:
Is this the solution to all problems and all terrans will suddenly win every game because soooo imba!!!111
The question was:
Is it better to do this and gain that little bit extra defense or is it not effective?
Of course Firebats will never shut down harassment completely. But just think about how much easier it will be for terran to defend against swarm + zerglings. The Firebat will pull the zergling AI towards the bunker. Zerg would have to micro the lings against the SCVs. But the point of zergling runbys is to have to do very little micro at all. You want to do this while doing something else. Either you use the runby as a distraction for a bigger attack or you use your bigger attack as a distraction for the runby.
With Firebats terran would not need to do any micro to fight under the swarm. Without Firebats terran either has to give up the expansion or micro extensively to safe it.
In this Sea tutorial he suggested at times it is good to build some firebats as he's making the switch to mech. It is very situational of course, as in this case when he is clearly ahead in the game while the zerg was trying to do some counter attack with sarms + lings + 1-2 lurkers...
EPT
