EPT
Note that games don't always go this way, but most of the time all protoss got same probe scouting timings.
ZvP how to anticipate double gate on 4x4 maps
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
Note that games don't always go this way, but most of the time all protoss got same probe scouting timings. | ||
|
Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
zerg never sees it coming | ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6805 Posts
On November 07 2013 05:54 Crunchums wrote: 2gate is a pretty strong strategy in TvZ zerg never sees it coming onfire :p | ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
hehe^^ | ||
|
Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
Did you manually work out what time probes would come compared to your units so that you know what he's doing? Or did you just learn from experience? Also, is this just for 9/9 gate or does it also account for 10/12 gate? I've seen people scout immediately after pylon with 10/12 gate so the timing would be the same as FFE. | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
On November 07 2013 08:10 Birdie wrote: Very nice tutorial. Makes you look like a map hacker xD I need to learn this for each map. Did you manually work out what time probes would come compared to your units so that you know what he's doing? Or did you just learn from experience? Also, is this just for 9/9 gate or does it also account for 10/12 gate? I've seen people scout immediately after pylon with 10/12 gate so the timing would be the same as FFE. 10/12 against pool11 is not really dangerous, and yes it can happen that sometimes scouting is different but in the overall this strat works 9 times out of 10, no kidding that's why I can't stop doing it because it is so efficient and rarely fails. I learnt it by chance watching zerg afreeca stream and I saw his dodge probe, so I wanted to do the same doing pool11 and by digging a bit I found out those possibilities, keep in mind that the first thing I tried to do is the same thing using overpool but the timing is wrong and your economy not good. What I like about it is that you don't gamble, you don't try to think, you just eliminate possibilities and come to one conclusion. If you approach the game this way, I believe you will not lose so much with stupid mistake or just "because you didn't know", and I agree it really looks like map hack, but it's not, just science  | ||
|
TelecoM
United States10690 Posts
| ||
|
Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
| ||
|
sheaRZerg
United States613 Posts
| ||
|
Weryeery
288 Posts
| ||
|
TelecoM
United States10690 Posts
| ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
On November 10 2013 17:03 GGzerG wrote: I think this can work a lot of the time but if toss scouts right after pylon say on FS, and scouts you first, then still 2gates, the probe would arrive at the same time as it would if you were going forge FE.... Scouting after pylon would throw you off if he scouts you first and pretty fast? If he scouts me first like exactly at the same time I put my pool11, I am sure he is not cross position so since I am scouting already one place with my over if ever I don't get to see it I know already where to send my scout to bust his double gate and make sure to make a zergling with my fourth larva. In this case the most important is to not be delayed too much when you put your natural. Rare case though because If he scouts you first If you don't scout him first with your over (50% of chance to find him though since he is not cross position) If he goes for double gate If you get delayed too much putting your natural Then yes that might be a good reason to lose to double gate. But that's a lot of "if"... Usually if protoss scouts me first like this, i send my scout straight away. So I never said that it's really 100%, but unless you do some kind of big mistake (like wasting your zerglings on his zealots while buying time to morph your sunk) it's very unlikely that you will fail. Even protoss that were way better than me I still managed to defend their double gate, and I am just a C+ B- player so I think that this strat is reliable. It only get risky when he comes with like 3 to 4 probes on top of going 9gate, but he doesn't deal enough damage, it's almost GG. I actually beat your friend 33uP)Ghost because of that, and I saw him with like 12/1 1200 fish, maybe he was offracing i don't know  It's too bad I don't have the replay anymore because it was the perfect example and vs high class player. | ||
|
Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
| ||
|
Jaevlaterran
Sweden578 Posts
| ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
On November 11 2013 08:21 Jaevlaterran wrote: shouldn't it be possible to work these timings out with another opening? Say overpool or 12 hatch. It's possible with overpool but you have to scout no matter what and scouting with overpool is not good for your eco, that's why usually progamers don't do it, I said it in my video. Also 12 hatch i guess it's possible but to me 12 hatch is shit coze it can be easily punished by rush canon and what if you put your hatchery and you see 9gate middle, it's too late...Unless you send your scout before putting your hatchery which mean hurting your eco and be delayed with your natural. 12 hatch is good if you do it sometimes but not as a standard opening and it's based assuming protoss would not bother you, so it's gambling your bo out which I don't like at all. Sometimes I saw sAviOr just doing hatch 12 opening session, he would get canon rush every time and survive it 50% of the time so up to you bro I have tried many ways to get the same timing and eco, you can't. pool11 with this strat is the most efficient because you can counter everything without sacrificing your eco. pool12 you will lose the advantage of having your natural popping out earlier than an overpool and you will get your zerglings later so it's like you are losing both advantage of an overpool and pool11 opening, over what? ONE drone. Definitely not worth it... I understand you guys would love to see that kind of strat with overpool and hatch12 because you see it more often than pool11 but unfortunately it's not happening, just try it on fish and tell me after 50 z v p on fish what was the best if you want to scout double gate before your larva pops out after your 6 zerglings. ps : even eon told me that he was scouting now with overpool because of this problem of not making zergling while not scouting double gate in time. | ||
|
Cele
Germany4016 Posts
No really its a great video. Very insightful! | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
On November 16 2013 00:56 Golgotha wrote: so many Koreans on fish ragequit because i use this build now. damn cheesing nubs. its so good on fish because so many toss in unranked 1v1 do 2 gate. its all they do. thanks pauline Hehe while my z v t tutorial might be questionable at some points, this z v p opening is damn real | ||
|
Operations
115 Posts
| ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
On November 16 2013 03:57 Operations wrote: why not go overpool and blindly make 6 lings? The point of this tutorial is to not do things blindly. Also I don't understand when you say 6 lings? You meant keeping producing zerglings after your 6 first lings? I guess you can do that, but why doing that if you can know what protoss is doing? On top of that I said in my video that with overpool your natural will pops out 5 to 6 sec later than doing pool11 and that time is a big handicap against 9gate and is the main reason why you die, because you can't micro those zealots in time to put your sunken... I totally understand the use of overpool on small map, but on big map I see no advantage at all, now why did progamer decided to go overpool after doing pool11 during 10 years? I would be very interested to know, maybe during a while protoss would go 2 photons to make sure to deny it, but now on fish all protoss go nexus first, unless you go pool9 there is no way you can put pressure on protoss if he wants to go nexus first and for me that completely nullify the use of overpool. I believe most of players are simply "blindly" doing it because of progamers do, it's really making your life harder for no real advantage since your eco is worst and those 6 zerglings popping out 6 seconds earlier aren't gonna do anything special. | ||
|
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
| ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
On November 16 2013 09:16 amazingxkcd wrote: How well does this translate towards 2p maps? Can I still open 11p based on timings? Well you don't have to go through all this blabla on 2p maps since you already know where protoss is, just make sure you can hide your drone before probe arrives. | ||
|
Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
Obviously you can't determine position but that's no problem on 2p maps as pauline said xD | ||
|
CrazyLurker
6 Posts
About 11/12 pool opening i think its a very solid opening but also i think that u should scout with 9th drone and dont rely much on probe scout timings(its very much a gamble).A smart protoss(to provoke mind games) could send the probe right after his first pylon because he should know that any delay to your natural can secure him more chances to win in case of 2 gates. IMO 11/12 pool with 9th drone its safest opening u can get while u can keep a decent eco(it sacrifices abit of eco comparative with 11th drone scout but id say its worhthing).With 9th drone scout u should find out toss opening even before your 2nd hatch timing and you can act acordingly. -in case of ffe u can make 2nd hatch on closest third or another natural (in case of pylong block or probe deny in your natural) and i think lings are fast enough to deal with cannon rush(could be wrong here must check it but anyway 12 pool its much better comparable to 12 hatch in dealing with cannon rush) -in case of proxy gates u make second hatch in your main -in case of 9/9 gates u can make second hatch where u usual put third for simcity(this just in case the probe is there to denny natural).The third hatch you will put in natural because till than your lings will be out in time.The plan here is simple put your 2nd hatch fast dont delay even few seconds so that u can put 1-2 sunken to be safe. -also in case of 1 gate tech opening you can secure enough drone count before the protoss gets agressive and u can do whatever you want to denny it(3 hatch hydra 2 hatch muta etc) Also 11/12 pool has an advantage over overpool .You get your third faster also arround 5 seconds and combined with faster second hatch its accumulate and can secure a slightly better eco than overpool. Only counter that i see it to 11/12 pool is the nexus first but toss needs to get lucky to scout from first try(otherwise they will have hard time to see exactly if is 9 pool/overpool or 11 pool...not vs pros or gosu players but u should lose to them anyway haha) Overpool has same issue but at least u get your second and third hatch slightly faster and u can afford a drone scout. | ||
stansfield123
8 Posts
I will do it on ICcup though . I can hide the drone just fine there. And your English is fine really. It's flawless, actually, other than the accent. And there's nothing wrong with accents. | ||
|
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On November 11 2013 18:55 iFU.pauline wrote: Also 12 hatch i guess it's possible but to me 12 hatch is shit coze it can be easily punished by rush canon and what if you put your hatchery and you see 9gate middle, it's too late...Unless you send your scout before putting your hatchery which mean hurting your eco and be delayed with your natural. 12 hatch is good if you do it sometimes but not as a standard opening and it's based assuming protoss would not bother you, so it's gambling your bo out which I don't like at all. Sometimes I saw sAviOr just doing hatch 12 opening session, he would get canon rush every time and survive it 50% of the time so up to you bro You also scouted before putting down your hatch with 11pool so how is scouting before hatch with 12hatch so bad? | ||
|
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On November 07 2013 05:52 iFU.pauline wrote: Hello, this will be my second and probably last tutorial, it has been made to help zerg to defend against double gate on 4x4 maps. Forgive my newbie-ness, but what exactly is meant by a "4x4 map"?  Used to think it was a map intended for 4 vs 4 play (i.e. 8-player map), but Fighting Spirit, which is shown in the vid, isn't that. Do you mean a 4-player map? Or a 4-player map of a certain size or shape? | ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
On May 10 2014 05:38 stansfield123 wrote: Well, the reason why pro-gamers don't do this is because it's a trick play (you're hiding your drone). Trick plays don't work in pro games. Do you think this is still a good opening if Protoss doesn't let you hide that drone? I will do it on ICcup though . I can hide the drone just fine there. And your English is fine really. It's flawless, actually, other than the accent. And there's nothing wrong with accents.I don't know why you say trick plays don't work in pro game, I see plenty of zerg pro scouting with overpool and doing this trick, actually i got it watching sAviOr. I adapted it with pool11. Jiexan, scouting before hatch 12 isn't bad at all, but even if you bust 9gate, your pool is still very late, and your are prawn to rush photon. Starlight, my bad for the 4x4, it was a way for me to say 4 positions, it's just that I make electronic music and 4x4 is a basic sequence for a kick -_- | ||
|
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
Of course, I'd like examples of your experiences or example videos of how this is bad if you could provide me with some | ||
|
stansfield123
8 Posts
On May 11 2014 21:19 iFU.pauline wrote: I don't know why you say trick plays don't work in pro game, I see plenty of zerg pro scouting with overpool and doing this trick, actually i got it watching sAviOr. I adapted it with pool11. I don't understand why Savior would hide a drone with overpool. With overpool, the natural goes down as the zerglings come out. Two zerglings are enough to chase away the probe, and allow the natural to go down when it's supposed to. | ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1665 Posts
On May 13 2014 10:23 stansfield123 wrote: I don't understand why Savior would hide a drone with overpool. With overpool, the natural goes down as the zerglings come out. Two zerglings are enough to chase away the probe, and allow the natural to go down when it's supposed to. Because when you send a drone for scouting, you do it before putting your natural, if at this time a probe is coming, you can hide a drone to dodge it and put your natural. If you wait for zergling you are already losing time. It usually happen when protoss is cross position. I am a bit surprised you guys didn't know about it, if you look stream usually whenever they can do it, they do it, actually why would they not do it if they can buy time doing it. I don't understand you guys. | ||
|
iG.Voltron
26 Posts
On May 11 2014 20:21 [[Starlight]] wrote: Forgive my newbie-ness, but what exactly is meant by a "4x4 map"? Used to think it was a map intended for 4 vs 4 play (i.e. 8-player map), but Fighting Spirit, which is shown in the vid, isn't that. Do you mean a 4-player map? Or a 4-player map of a certain size or shape? I can only assume it means 4 Player map, with 4 possible spawn locations. while that may sound obvious and silly some maps have cross spawn locations. For example, if you spawn at top left, the map forces the other opponent to spawn bottom right and if you spawn at top right, opponent spawns bottom left | ||
|
fearthequeen
United States788 Posts
On May 26 2014 13:02 iG.Voltron wrote: I can only assume it means 4 Player map, with 4 possible spawn locations. while that may sound obvious and silly some maps have cross spawn locations. For example, if you spawn at top left, the map forces the other opponent to spawn bottom right and if you spawn at top right, opponent spawns bottom left i know its not related to this thread, but what's an example of a 4 player map with forced cross spawn? | ||
|
abGrund
1 Post
| ||
|
fearthequeen
United States788 Posts
On January 15 2015 03:21 abGrund wrote: Sorry to bump an old thread, but the video isn't working. Is there a way to reupload it? (that goes for Pauline's other videos as well). Alternatively, does anyone remember the gist of it? From the following discussion I can guess the idea is that, by 11 pooling and paying attention to the timing of the scouting probe, you're always in a good position to react and adapt appropriately. Thanks! Yes, basically its a build that accounts for 2 gate builds. Its much easier to fight 2 gate with 11 pool because of its ling/2nd hatchery timings relative to other builds. 11 pool is personally my go-to zvp build, though i prefer to drone scout with it where as i believe Pauline does not. This is simply because i don't like to assume that the Protoss will be doing "standard" probe scouting (directionally and timing-wise). Also with the prevalence of gateway first expand builds on fish, I find the drone scout quite neccessary to seeing how many lings you need to produce. | ||
| ||
