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Russian Federation481 Posts
I rarely see here 2v2 topics, but still hope to find an answer. I want to get answers from good 2v2 players, so plz say just if you really know what are you talking about.
So the question is: tz VS tz matchup - should terran go bio or mech? Personally I thought terran should go mech, and he and his ally should try to survive the first attack (zerglings+marines@medics), then it'll become pretty easy, but last games seems to prove this theory to be wrong. Bio terr makes m@m and mass tanks, while tech terr makes tanks+goliafs so he have less tanks - he loses on ground to bio+tank terr. What should the teching terr build and in which proportions? My ally builded mainly goliafs and some tanks.
Also is it worthly to take fast exp as zerg if you scouted opponent's zerg and he isn't 9pooling?
Any help and may be others thougths on this matchup will be greatly appreciated.
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How often does someone NOT 9 pool for you? Because I've come to accept that's all I'm going to see
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Russian Federation481 Posts
Hm pretty often, 12pool is the most common BO i think, so I try to scout with 8-9th drone and ask my tp to do the same, so I could know what to do (12pool, 12hatch@main, 12exp).
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Bio: More money efficient, more mobile, and still leaves room for a few Tanks
I'll probably get flamed for this, but there are a few times in this MU where I skipped Tanks all together and went MnM -> Wraiths. I have really only done this in random B.net games, but I just think mobility is the key in this matchup.
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vults into gol/tank
wraiths into gol/tank
gol drop into gol tank
straight gols
all far better openings than m&m/tank (especially if they know it is coming). most likely you are just playing vs superior opponents.
and no, its not wise to take an early expo in this matchup simply because the zerg opponent didn't 9pool.
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Just wall, make rines to hold your ramp, tell the zerg to hatch at ramp after he 12 or 9 pools. He can even 9 hatch at ramp and 10 pool using extractor trick and still be safe. Get 2 facts, 1 with addon. Pump vults accordingly while researching speed or mines (i like speed first if the game is active and people are still being attacked/attacking, whereas if it's obvious that both are turtling get mines first and lay them everywhere, but dont make to many vults as their effectiveness will be soon nullified once zerg gets mutas out). make an armory and just go mass gols. i like to get a starport before a third factory as it so easy to take out an agressive terran with a gol/tank drop.
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I have four ways I like to deal with it.
1.) Open with 1 rax producing rines into 2 factories. Then you can do rine/vult/tank opening or rine/gol/tank opening depending on what you see when you scout (kind of like a Gundam rush). Later you will switch to metal (I would say "gol/tank" like devaztayta says, but I always like to keep a few vults, even if I am playing 1v1 TvT, and besides, it's hard to keep the gas up for pure gol/tank).
2.) Open like you are doing a fast wraith TvZ build (you want to play it like vs TvZ in case of rush of course). Later switch into metal (gol/tank).
TheosEx: the build you are trying to do is #2. The way you are doing it probably is not optimized (I haven't seen your reps so I don't know exactly what you are doing), but this is basically your strategy.
3.) Fast mnm drop, later switching into metal (gol/tank or tank/wraith....this build it's usually easier to go wraith/tank but its UBER gas expensive). Get scanner up quick so you know who is more vulnerable to drop. It can be a bit risky, but when it works it gives you a huge lead.
4.) Cheese the Terran (bunker rush or gas cap) and then go all-in mnm + ling rush on the Zerg. This is the most risky. That's true by definition though -- cheese is do-or-die. Hopefully it's now a 2v1, but the Terran will have metal at this point and will initially have the edge over you. Your partner should probably muta as you switch to mech.
If you can wall, you might want to go for it. I often wall in 2v2 in case of a dual rush vs me. If you cannot perfectly wall, at least the lings will be going single file, easier for your marines to pick off. If you don't wall and then go all-in vs you, SCV on ramp with rines behind is a must.
And in agreeance with Dev, DO NOT early expo simply because a Zerg does not 9 pool. If anyone on your team expos quickly, it should be your partner since he will need that money more than you and he can cover it better than you. Generally I prefer when my partner 9 pools though; it forces them to defend vs lings which means not so good defense vs metal.
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as T in tz i love having my ally 9pool then go fast muta while im teching to gol drops. a gol drop on zerg is just devastating. a good idea is to ^like myx said, wall and get like 4 vults while teching to gols so u can actually save ur allly from rine/ling rushes. and speed is much more useful then mines imo. but its a good idea to upgrade mine sif u didnt lose ur vults at the beginning so u can stall terrans tanks and gols or mm. once u can drop 8 gols go to zerg and have ur ally bring his mutas if he has them yet. if you can pull off a drop like that, its very worthwhile but its hard to do cuz the enemies are obviously going to attack alot or drop you. you only really need tanks in mid to late game cuz u can over power tanks early with 8+ 0/1 gols
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In TZ vs TZ I try to get as late pool as possible (optimal is 12 hatch 11 pool, normal is 12 pool 11 hatch) and as much eco as I can get while my ally goes gols. Def hatch is optimal but dangerous. All you have to do is to get those mutas up and not die because mech+mutas > mnm/tank + mutas.
Scout early and have your ally scout early and then match the other zergs BO +1 eco. If he goes 9 pool you go 12 pool, if he goes 12 pool you go 12 hatch etc.
You'll die if you get careless though.
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Heavily map dependant. On LT, mutes plus cliff gay can be hard to stop. I prefer just straight up gol/tank though.
MM is definitely viable but it's risky. Only time I like going MM with these matchups is if the zerg didn't hatch cliff, then you double him hard with ling/MM and transition into mm/tank or tank wraith with cliff harrass.
On Luna or other non-cliffable maps I like to go 3 fact gol into gol/tank.
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Terran should do delayed mech, delayed because u need to build 3 marines for your ramp to hold lings off in early game, if ter is heavey rines then a few vults are viable.The key to this matchup is getting tanks/drops before other terran. u want prolly a 1 fact 1 port build with 1 rax rines and an ebay. as soon as drop comes u take zerg's cliff with 3rine/1scv/1tank and immedially build bunker, u must also protect ur main from muta/drop which is also a very good t/z strategy. After u have cliff(s), expand and throw down 2-3 more factories and an armory + acad produce tank/gol from this point making sure you have enough tanks (more then the other ter) as well as an appriate number of drops to hold the containment. As for the suggested m*m if it doesnt work by mid game you will have lost the game vs any decent terran/z combo. I would only m*m if the opposing zerg expanded (which would be dumb vs t/z he would get bunked/linged)
The key points:
-Survive the early game and take cliffs with bunker on zerg cliff for mutas
-Have good recon, you must spot and know the timing of oppent's drops/mutas
-Contain
-Get tanks and drop before terran
-Expand before other terran.
-Secure your own cliff with 1-2tank and barax for vison
-After expansion/macro get scaners
Note: This matchup is a balance between rushing tech while knowing how many units you need to defend from lings/muta/drop/marines. Like all matchups 2v2 or 1v1 its knowing how much u can get away with (tech, expansion etc) without getting ganked.
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What about from the other perspective, what should the zerg be doing/build order/etc.
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Great quote Pwny 
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Just finish them off quickly with bbs and 9 pool -.-
PS: only if you know they are going to tech;;
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i say open bio and take down the terran with a quick zergling/mm rush
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a terran that mechs will be extremely vulnerable
if he goes mm then you will both be on the same page
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
On August 07 2006 07:47 lil.sis wrote:
i say open bio and take down the terran with a quick zergling/mm rush
me too
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Well obvisously a 9 pool duel 8 rax will win this match easy most times, but its not a standered build and will not work every game.
As for the zerg perspective, its quite simply a 12pool gas lair hatch spire build which u need to alter to match the other zerg's lings/muta tech. Some people would say go speedling and hit terran which can be very effective providing u can handle counters. You need to keep recon directly outside the oppents bases in order to give u time to sunk if u get caught teching. This match for zerg is purly a micro battle, when u have muts u hit one with your partner dropping (or if he bio'd u hit the front door/ramp) The important thing is to not waste units.
Your options as z in this match aer limited by what the other zerg does. If he spore's you contain and expand. If he 3 hatches ling get lurker tech first then switch to muta around the time u expand. If he 3 hatches hydra/ling u go pure mutaling with ling speed and upgrades. If he 1 hatch lair u 3 hatch speedling and take himout by yourself while ur partner tech/keeps other ter busy.
The Key points:
- Pay attention to when your oppent zerg gases and extrapilate if he is ahead or behind then adjust (maybe u need a spore maybe u need to hit him before muta)
-Focus fire mutas and do not waste mutas on turrets or spores or m*m (pop rine then get out, pop rine then get out as u see in vods)
-Once again as in any matchup make sure you have the right balance of econ/units/tech and do not get caught out of position (having too much of one and not enough of another in the appriopate situations)
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Guys bio is a risky build because if it doesnt work by midgame you have no hope of catching up with terran's tech and will be at a great disadvantage as u will have no cliff, neither will ur partner and you will not have anything to open up terran with besides maybe mutas which by this time terran should be able to handle. So you are left only able to hurt z, and if u havent dont this by midgame terran is able to provide help thu drops. Now you are left with a pile of useless research like stim and +1 which will be totally useless once terran starts pushing and turreting the map. Unless the oppenet zerg wastes all he's mutas u will be eventually pushed back to main and gg
turrets + muta + ling+ tank +gol > marine+medic+tank +muta +ling.
This strategy overcommits to hurting zerg early.
unless u do 8rax 9pool combo this will get u killed vs good player and even then if it is spotted it may not work.
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God.... terran that techs is vunerable ? as long as there's a wall this is just plain wrong....i suggest u learn how to correctly defend using a wall vs ling/rine, and even without a wall u can manage a 1 rax build pumping rines with micro as lings and rines (this is risky, but no more riskier then comminting to m*m which will get raped midgame)
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Theo quit stomping newbs 
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my problem with terran tech is the lack of early game mobility till your vults come out, that can potentially hurt your teammate if he gets rushed and can't defend properly
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On August 07 2006 08:16 MyLittlePwny wrote:
God.... terran that techs is vunerable ? as long as there's a wall this is just plain wrong....i suggest u learn how to correctly defend using a wall vs ling/rine, and even without a wall u can manage a 1 rax build pumping rines with micro as lings and rines (this is risky, but no more riskier then comminting to m*m which will get raped midgame)
i suggest you try holding 8 marines and 12 zerglings with 1 marine and scv repair
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On August 07 2006 08:16 MyLittlePwny wrote:
God.... terran that techs is vunerable ? as long as there's a wall this is just plain wrong....i suggest u learn how to correctly defend using a wall vs ling/rine, and even without a wall u can manage a 1 rax build pumping rines with micro as lings and rines (this is risky, but no more riskier then comminting to m*m which will get raped midgame)
AMAGAD i suggest u lern how2 dfend 8 rine/12 zergling w/ nuthin but ur 1 marine n scv repair its ez jus need micro mirite lol
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On August 07 2006 08:16 MyLittlePwny wrote:
God.... terran that techs is vunerable ? as long as there's a wall this is just plain wrong....i suggest u learn how to correctly defend using a wall vs ling/rine, and even without a wall u can manage a 1 rax build pumping rines with micro as lings and rines (this is risky, but no more riskier then comminting to m*m which will get raped midgame)
AMAGAD
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On August 07 2006 08:16 MyLittlePwny wrote:
God.... terran that techs is vunerable ? as long as there's a wall this is just plain wrong....i suggest u learn how to correctly defend using a wall vs ling/rine, and even without a wall u can manage a 1 rax build pumping rines with micro as lings and rines (this is risky, but no more riskier then comminting to m*m which will get raped midgame)
amagad u need 2 lern 2 dfend 8 rine/12 ling w/ 1 marine + scv repair and micro!!!! lol m i rite
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sis u suggest u learn how do duel fact before 2nd depot. and 1 rine will die to 6 lings no rines, u need 3-4 rines and vults. fact 16 fact 17 use it. cut scvs's if u need to and use recon. ur a moron if u only make 1 rine with 18-19(20) fact, use 16/17 cut scvs if u need to for rines. god people use ur head...
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As I said, if you are going to open with an mnm rush it is often best to cheese the Terran. If you can get a gas cap on him, it will delay his mech, buying you extra time to focus on the Zerg.
My stlye for bio+zerg rush vs zerg actually came as an idea inspired by Boxer from proleague. He was partnered with Gorush and they were playing vs a t/z combo and Boxer bunker rushed behind the Terran's mineral and was able to substanitally slow down the Terran's mining, then he and Gorushh focused all-in on the Zerg, and by the time the opponent Terran was able to re-establish himself, his partner was dead. It's risky, but it can work well.
The wraith opening is considered to be the safest, since it shuts down drop, helps shut down muta (opponent zerg will be counting on his partner to scan sweep cloaked wraiths, so just run them away from the scan making him waste a valuable scan), and works well against metal if you know how to use wraiths properly TvT.
Do not cut SCVs to get your second factory before your second depot, ESPECIALLY not if you are at a base where you need 2 depots to wall (and if you can do 1 depot perfect wall, ling rush = useless vs you...only on maps where you can't wall effectively like Luna would you ever, EVER even consider cutting SCVs, because this throws you behind the opponent Terran). Wall your front so that the lings have to march between depots, which means they move single file. If opponent zerg rushes you, then you can use an SCV to help block this hole (lings have to kill it before coming to your base, which means you will kill 1-2 before he comes through, + it gives you time to bring other SCVs from mining + it gives your partner time to come to your base), and in the meantime you have marines picking off the lings and your partner should be coming to help you clear the lings. Don't cut SCVs -- use your partner instead.
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Moral thats a good post, and totally correct. But in the event of a double cheese rush cutting scvs would be advised to surive, and as it is a cheese rush this will not put u too far behind the other terran who has cut scvs or sent scvs in order to improve the chance of a successfull rush
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If you wall properly, you should be able to defend unless you are playing Requeim, in which case marines on the cliff will damage your wall, and also if you get stuck at 12 on Req, your rines pop out on the wrong side of the wall and since the wall is "perfect," they can't walk back to the other side.
On Usan Nation or Luna, you may want to cut SCVs if you get double rushed, since you cannot wall and you will need maximum firepower asap.
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EPT
