EPTHeavy Mech vs Zerg
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monkus
United States44 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
Most zergs now like to go 3 hatch builds, 3 hatch muta especially, which is pretty much a counter to mech. Mech is specially effective in maps without a natural with gas and on islands. Mech is basically designed to counter the micro oriented zergs that are now getting scarce, not the macro whore-many bases zerg style many are playing now. Yosh stopped playing. | ||
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hixhix
1156 Posts
On July 02 2006 13:34 monkus wrote: Plus I figure goliaths own against mutalisks as well, which pretty much covers all of a zerg player's typical strategies. NO, mass muta > mech | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
On July 02 2006 13:34 monkus wrote: I watched a VOD with Boxer in it (The 1st person one on youtube) and I saw him using heavy mech against zerg. Now of course Boxer can do anything he wants, because he's Boxer, but I was wondering why the complete norm against Zerg are m&m. Boxer was pumping out of 5 factories vultures and goliaths, and they worked really well. Vultures take out the lings and hydras really easily, lurkers aren't as effective, and the mines just rocked. Plus I figure goliaths own against mutalisks as well, which pretty much covers all of a zerg player's typical strategies. So why are m&m so much more used? it was on nostalgia. mech owns on nostalgia  notice how boxer never let the zerg get a 2nd gas... on normal maps the z starts with 2 gasses... so its alot harder | ||
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monkus
United States44 Posts
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8882
2718 Posts
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alpskomleko
Slovenia950 Posts
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decafchicken
United States20019 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
Generally however I don't believe most people have the skills necessary to pull this off, and it requires a lot.. you must adapt to the zerg if your trying something as crazy as this, making the choice between having four tanks in there, two valks or twenty vultures  could make the difference between winning and losing-.-Usually mech vs zerg is just raped by some early muta harass to keep the terran contained into mass expo with hydra lurker defiler. This is the problem .. you dont have map control or a fast army(i guess vults could fix this but..not so well) This whole mass muta > goli thing.. im unsure of.. i know EVERYONE says it, but ive been in numerous situations with an ungodly amount of gols and an ungodly amount of mutaling(nevermind gols vs muta, gols tame them <3 1-1-1 <3) and the zerg just gets liquidated. somone explain plz?-_- | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On July 03 2006 14:18 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Gols with their superior range and with + weapon upgrades become cost effective vs muta ling once you reach a high number of gols. They do enough dmg before muta/ling get in range to make them extremely powerful(same reason 200 supply 3/3 metal tvp is almost impossible to stop without high tech). However it is very difficult vs a good zerg to mass that many gols. Most good zergs will continually attack with lots of muta ling while taking expos and at low numbers goliaths are extremly bad. Not really, not to mention once hive comes in for zerg, and it will be in by the time you have thatnumber goliaths, dark swarm+pure lings will rape the shit out of you and he won't even need mutas. And getting that high a number of gols automatically takes vessels out of the equation. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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decafchicken
United States20019 Posts
On July 03 2006 17:07 Reason wrote: No it doesn't, why do you say that Can you specify what you are negating? | ||
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alpskomleko
Slovenia950 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
 And Drowsy says, "...getting a high number of gols automatically takes vessels out of the equation" alpskomleko translates that as "you won't have many vessels" I notice a distinct difference  Drowsy you got reps of you beating a terran going pure goliath with pure ling defiler~? Edit : rofl | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
with 5 factories and an expansion you can barely fight a zerg who has 3 hatch mutas going, whilst you only need 2-3 barracks pumping marines (especially if upgraded) to fight him, having spare cash for expanding or teching up | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
2-3 barracks pumping marines? when i three hatch muta ive taken 4-5 raxers... playing 2-3 rax vs mad muta/mutaling is VERY risky, and how much spare cash do you have when ,making 2-3 rax, acad, supplies, ebay(s), upgrades, whilst pumping MnM constant.. not much thats how much  | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
there is an excellent reason why people dont use mech extensively, considering it is easier to micro and the build order is simpler, it seems to be a mistery for you | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On July 03 2006 15:59 Drowsy wrote: Not really, not to mention once hive comes in for zerg, and it will be in by the time you have thatnumber goliaths, dark swarm+pure lings will rape the shit out of you and he won't even need mutas. And getting that high a number of gols automatically takes vessels out of the equation. Your logic is very very irritating. Not once in either mine nor Reason's post was there any mention of dark swarm or defiler use. Basically what you did is like adding another variable to a math equation and then telling me that my equation is wrong because it doesn't include that variable. Obviously if hes using dark swarm and lings then one would mix vultures and mass mines. This would allow for more gas and vessel use. I notice a lot of your posts are more focused on being right then actually using real game expierence and knowledge. So if you're going to say not really; please respond to the original example that i was responding to. Otherwise its just comparing apples to oranges. They aren't related. Also in case there is some confusion - I am aware that MnM + vessel/tank is better at high levels of play in virtually all situations. The lone exception being, as I believe FrozenArbiter mentioned, maps with no gas in second natural. In general Mech(with scan) is strong vs lurker/ling and weak vs muta/hydra. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
If you start playing with a mech build and the game becomes very long, you will be at a disadvantage because mech sucks long game tvz and you wont have your marines upgraded and wont have those 8 barracks you need. This is assuming the zerg sucks and lets you last very long while you went mech. Fact is that he should kill you either quick with mass mutaling or midgame with fast defiler and lings (remember, you dont have upgraded firebats to stop those cracklings, and goliaths are ranged units). Lets not even get upgraded mutas into the equation (goliaths do explosive antiair damage, ie suck). Anyway, I hope my opinion was insightful to anyone. I'm sure one of those A+ that hang here could tell you much more (please do). | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On July 04 2006 04:43 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Your logic is very very irritating. Not once in either mine nor Reason's post was there any mention of dark swarm or defiler use. Basically what you did is like adding another variable to a math equation and then telling me that my equation is wrong because it doesn't include that variable. Obviously if hes using dark swarm and lings then one would mix vultures and mass mines. This would allow for more gas and vessel use. I notice a lot of your posts are more focused on being right then actually using real game expierence and knowledge. So if you're going to say not really; please respond to the original example that i was responding to. Otherwise its just comparing apples to oranges. They aren't related. Also in case there is some confusion - I am aware that MnM + vessel/tank is better at high levels of play in virtually all situations. The lone exception being, as I believe FrozenArbiter mentioned, maps with no gas in second natural. In general Mech(with scan) is strong vs lurker/ling and weak vs muta/hydra. Firebats are much more cost effective vs crackling and swarm than vultures and mines. Mines hit your own units, vultures are ranged and dont work under swarm, firebats do splash damage, mines are unreliable, especially vs zergs with really good micro (send air units to distract while suiciding few lings to mines, then send those 200/200 crackling and swarm). And plague (medics dont work on mech). SK Terran is clearly much better against that. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On July 04 2006 04:39 Sabbath wrote: you should try playing someone above A- or A rank, maybe it will change your opinion there is an excellent reason why people dont use mech extensively, considering it is easier to micro and the build order is simpler, it seems to be a mistery for you How do you know im not an A-/A rank player? If I'm not, and I play someone vastly superior in skill to me, who could beat me with virtually any strat they choose, if they are SO MUCH BETTER THAN ME, why would this change my opinion on strategy alone?? I would just be losing because they are better than me overall... And what the hell is the mystery about? You are a confused individual. On July 04 2006 04:46 Sabbath wrote: Also, you should consider that medics make marines have unlimited health as long as they are microed well, while goliaths have to be repaired. Goliaths suck vs swarm, plague, ensnare, ultras, mass crackling, mass upgraded hydra, and so on. M&M doesnt. (goliaths do explosive antiair damage, ie suck). Anyway, I hope my opinion was insightful to anyone. I'm sure one of those A+ that hang here could tell you much more (please do). What's the point in considering the fact that marines have unlimited health as long as they are microed well... they don't, it doesn't happen, it never will. Goliaths are better vs swarm than marines because one swarm is only going to cover 1-5 of your 24+ golis.. as opposed to half of your mnm force. Goliaths are better versus plague also because they DONT RELY ON MEDICS WHO FUCK UP ON PLAGUE and don't get raped by a couple ling hits after being plagued... Goliaths are better against ensare than marines as the ensnare spell has a small radius.. nice micro opportunities exist to ensare a group of clustered MnM then flank and destroy.. mass goliaths with 1-5 ensared goliaths... oh no they are all going to die help me, help me please. Ultras rape the shit out of rines, goliaths don't do too badly, micro them like hydras versus speedzeal. Mass crackling gets raped by both, and the whole point of mass upgraded hydras is that they CAN kill MnM... Goliaths are renowned for being one of the best anti air ground units.. apparently now they "suck" your "opinion" was a load of horrible misinformation, so how about putting it into practice before posting it over the internet? | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
and gols are just as bad vs plague as mm, either way if you stand and fight you lose badly. with mm if you can retreat and seperate the units until plague wears off you can then heal and be perfectly fine again, whereas with gols you need to repair or you're walking around with a bunch of 3 health goliaths. mmf is better vs swarm than gols are, mmf is very maneuverable and bats can fight under swarm, to an extent, whereas gols are relatively slow and clumsy, a line of swarms across them and hit with hydra ling and the hydra ling will get a significant number of hits in while the gols are retreating, and a good def user will be able to follow you with swarms for a while, meaning by the time you're able to stop retreating and fight your gols are already well damaged. and no, mech isnt bad late game, especially in the right situation. play conservatively with standard mm tank and when your opponent gets hive tech turtle up with mines/tanks/mm and take the other 2 gases on your half of the map, then go tank vult, adding in gols if they go air. mines all over seriously fuck up ult ling def, as does mass tank. whereas at this point even 3/3 rines get owned by fully upped ult ling, especially with good swarm/plague use. that being said it can only be done in certain situations and most good z's will switch to mostly hydra with a few ults and take you out before you get a significant tank force going, and except on certain maps mech is greatly inferior to standard play. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
Your comments on plague and swarm are nonsense. This whole marines heal and goliaths don't argument really has to stop now. I know that, and I'm not trying to deny that. however your only going to repair OR heal a unit if it survives... "Retreat and seperate the units until plague wears off, then you can heal and be perfectly fine again" .... The whole point of plague is that that doesn't happen, he plagues you then attacks and kills (no running away and healing...) In a battle more goliaths are likely to survive when plague is involved than marines, for the same reason I mentioned with ensnare. Goliaths are BIG BOYS. Swarm only going to get a couple bothered, for a short amount of time. Your solution? "A line of swarms across them and hit with hydra ling and the hydra ling will get a significant number of hits in while the gols are retreating, and a good def user will be able to follow you with swarms for a while...." How many in each line?? 3-5? follow for a while? any significant amount of following with swarm and your talking about 10+ well casted swarms, every time there is a fight. wake up. I also feel compelled to clarify, as FoReveR felt he had to, that I'm not saying metal is superior than MnM TvZ, I play 99% of my games with MnM. Goliaths CAN be superior to MnM in a variety of ways and STILL be inferior in the end you know, it's O.K.... | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
and no. my comments on plague and swarm made perfect sense and were entirely true. perhaps you just dont understand them. yes the point of plague is to not allow them to get away. however like i said if gols OR mm get plagued and have to fight, they both die quite easily, i dont see how you can argue with this and if you do want to try you are retarded. you can sometimes run away, and if you do your mm become useable again after plague is done. with gols you have to repair all of them, a time consuming process, before they are worthwhile again. it is also easier to run away with mm for the same reasons they are better vs swarm, much better maneuverability. unless you are perfectly set up every time ONE attack of 6-7 well placed swarms and a good hydra ling flank will whipe out your entire army. a good sized mech army is a bigass investment. if you lose 3 groups of rines it sucks, but its not the end of the world. if you lose 2 1/2 groups of gols and 6 tanks without inflicting alot of damage you are now SIGNIFICANTLY behind, and wont be able to pressure them for some time, giving them enough time to get 12 ults + the remainder of their hydra ling and run your ass over. it doesnt take perfect swarming every time, it takes one good attack. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
 I understood exactly what you said, which is why I wrote what I did to explain why it was wrong, as opposed to going umm could you explain what you just said. By good ups you meant more like +2, what does im 1-1-1 with starport and science imply to you ? I didn't argue that gols and rines don't both die easily to plague, I said marines die easier, which is true. How is repairing gols time consuming ?? Clone repair 3-4 scv... seconds dude. Whats this maneuverability stuff about they can both change direction at the same speed, rines just walk a bit faster. Considering you have many control groups of marine medic (if you want a good force) and 1-3 with goliaths, one could argue they, in reality, more maneuverable. Have you ever lost a mass metal army to "one good attack" involving hydra ling and defilers?? All you have to do is micro or just plain run away.. if my army is running away you can't destroy it on the move, you might pick off a couple of golis that's it. Everytime you dextrously perform one of your good attacks, ill run like a bitch. So your going to have to perfect swarm every time, or ill just own you when you do it badly. Remember mech armies fill screens.. how many swarms to a screen ? =/ theorycraft with a little obvious statement in the middle see if you can spot it: unless you are perfectly set up every time ONE attack of 6-7 well placed swarms and a good hydra ling flank will whipe out your entire army. a good sized mech army is a bigass investment. if you lose 3 groups of rines it sucks, but its not the end of the world. if you lose 2 1/2 groups of gols and 6 tanks without inflicting alot of damage you are now SIGNIFICANTLY behind, and wont be able to pressure them for some time, giving them enough time to get 12 ults + the remainder of their hydra ling and run your ass over. it doesnt take perfect swarming every time, it takes one good attack Im almost amused your considering hydra ling to counter metal. Almost.  | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
if you mean +2 then say +2, when you say 1-1-1 i somehow assume you mean +1, and the whole point was by the time you get to +2 theyve switched away from muta so its fairly irrelevant. its not cloning but that doesnt matter, it takes longer to repair 20 gols than it does for meds to heal a decent rine army. not to set up, but for the scvs to actually repair. stimmed rines are faster than gols, but the size of the gols is more important. you preach actually playing before giving advice and yet you dont seem to realize than moving larges groups of goliaths at once in the same direction they tend to get stuck around one another and dont all move back quickly. and if you dont think you can lose an army to one attack you are playing shitty z's. running away from a GOOD flank under GOOD swarms is no where near as easy as you make it sound. if they manage to pin you against a wall or something you will lose nearly all your army, you cannot always get out of it no matter how quickly you run. what amuses me is the fact that you seem to think you know what you're talking about. well upgraded hydra ling under swarms supported by good macro/economy does very well vs metal, unless you have a massive tank force in which case no ground units are going to do well, to save time/economy until you can go ult ling or ult hydra ling. | ||
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cruel)angel
Philippines253 Posts
mech > zerg in land units mech >= zerg in islands. mech <<< zerg if he goes muta, why because mech can be good only if you 1 damage his econ by harass of any sort, 2 when at critical mass. if z got muta and T didnt harass very well, mech goes down.. simply because T cannot sustain the production of mech with only one base, nor is T at critical mass when z has 24 muta. in mech T needs to invest all his time and resources in order to get effective units, once those units die T cannot fight anymore, have you everseen tvz mech that wins once the main push is obliterated? no, cuz its mostly harras->macro->when at critical mass roll over z. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
My build is a light rine opening into 1/2 fac vult with mines, expo, then mass gols or tank/valk or vult/valk/goli or w/e is necessary depending on the zergs build order. Then no more expansions unless an unusual situation occurs.. so your just macroing off two bases while doing as much as you can with what you've got, and if your not incredibly behind, a total noob or just got owned somehow, the zerg's not going to have the macro power your speaking of. peace ~~ | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On July 04 2006 09:13 Reason wrote: .. How often you have hive defiler ultra hydra blah blah in less than 13 minutes? My build is a light rine opening into 1/2 fac vult with mines, expo, then mass gols or tank/valk or vult/valk/goli or w/e is necessary depending on the zergs build order. Then no more expansions unless an unusual situation occurs.. so your just macroing off two bases while doing as much as you can with what you've got, and if your not incredibly behind, a total noob or just got owned somehow, the zerg's not going to have the macro power your speaking of. peace ~~ you theorycraft too much. You go mech = you cant pressure = zerg takes 3rd gas goes hive. fuck if you go vults i REALLY doubt that zerg is going to go full ground, meaning he will take map control for a while, and power up econ. ultras rape the shit out of golies, because they tend to be the "targets" and making crackling tear apart all metal (yes, i've played against good terrans and raped this way, for the record: b b+ a a- terrans) and if you add swarm its going to be fucking annoying because no mech is able to fight under swarm. please.. run away? ARE YOU SURE? i want to see leave your base and let zerg clean it up while your army waits until swarm wores off.. fuck you should play a lot of games instead of argueing non-sense | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On July 04 2006 09:13 Reason wrote: I do know what im talking about, and I posted it. It's for everyone to read. I'm not going to discuss something with someone who is just disagreeing with what I'm saying for the sake of it, nit-picking about writing things in the proper manner or giving me specific situations when im trying to talk generally. Read Forevers post he's better at explaining things to people like you than I am.. How often you have hive defiler ultra hydra blah blah in less than 13 minutes? My build is a light rine opening into 1/2 fac vult with mines, expo, then mass gols or tank/valk or vult/valk/goli or w/e is necessary depending on the zergs build order. Then no more expansions unless an unusual situation occurs.. so your just macroing off two bases while doing as much as you can with what you've got, and if your not incredibly behind, a total noob or just got owned somehow, the zerg's not going to have the macro power your speaking of. peace ~~ im disagreeing because you're wrong, not to nitpick. a low pressure opening like that, no substantial rine force, kinda fast expo, then waiting to get a decent mech force going. especially considering he'll go muta once he sees the vults out so they wont do shit. any competent z has plenty of macro power when given that kind of time to power/tech/mass. and read what i said, it is very easy to delay with hydra ling swarm until you have enough saved up to go ults, not ult ling def right away. terran will not have a huge army in time barring any big advantage early, which they wont get with your passive build, if anything it gives z a big advantage early. | ||
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
It's really simple why mech doesn't work as well as other strategies. You go mech, Zerg goes muta. You can't ever leave your base now because if you do the zerg will burn it to the ground. Then the zerg takes the entire map and bends your family over on top of the command center and next thing you know your sister is shooting out infested terrans. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On July 02 2006 20:27 alpskomleko wrote: Marines are small units whereas goliaths are not. That means the tend to clog up and be less effective with focus fire than marines. Medics don't work with mech units (except SCV, which is weird at best), and there is no way you can have ~10 SCVs repairing your goliaths all the time. Versus zerg you dont need that huge range since all their units except guardians are either melee or have a range similar to marines. Marines are cheap. Mechs are not. Also, marines are much more useful for the same reason that a single tank can die to just a few lings. They have a higher firing rate, they can switch their targets faster and you don't get many useless overkills (like dealing much excessive damage to a weak unit). And, boy, they have stim. its not the fact that the goliaths are not small units. its the fact that MUTALISKS are small units. they take crap damage from explosive damage which is what goliaths dish out. marines do normal damage so they work better vs mutalisks. muta ling > mech | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On July 04 2006 12:37 Ghin wrote: Someone probably already posted this, but I don't want to look through what looks to be useless shit when I can just repeat what probably is already there in a smaller paragraph. It's really simple why mech doesn't work as well as other strategies. You go mech, Zerg goes muta. You can't ever leave your base now because if you do the zerg will burn it to the ground. Then the zerg takes the entire map and bends your family over on top of the command center and next thing you know your sister is shooting out infested terrans. I typed this out awhile ago then deleted it. Your explination is more concise than mine was. I hope this makes the original poster stop defending Mech vs Zerg. | ||
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mightyzealot
China11 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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mightyzealot
China11 Posts
On July 04 2006 12:37 Ghin wrote: Someone probably already posted this, but I don't want to look through what looks to be useless shit when I can just repeat what probably is already there in a smaller paragraph. It's really simple why mech doesn't work as well as other strategies. You go mech, Zerg goes muta. You can't ever leave your base now because if you do the zerg will burn it to the ground. Then the zerg takes the entire map and bends your family over on top of the command center and next thing you know your sister is shooting out infested terrans. Interesting post :lol: But Mutas are still big threatens while you trains M&M Missle Turrets are so weak... | ||
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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
On July 02 2006 13:34 monkus wrote: Plus I figure goliaths own against mutalisks as well... you figure horribly wrong | ||
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
Ever see those two games on Arizona? --; Fine example of mech play. | ||
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ChApFoU
France2982 Posts
Not that wrong, depends on the situation. Mutas are good early game but once terran reach a good amount of golz they are inefficient. I just made a test 36 gols 3-3+charon vs 36 muts 3-3 = the mutas gets buttfucked in an ugly fashion and you still have 3/4 of your gol force at then end of the fight, yet mutas cost twice the gaz. | ||
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ChApFoU
France2982 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
MnM with goliath support (although i didnt mention it earlier) is one of the most effective armies vs zerg ive ever seen, give it a try sometime. | ||
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mightyzealot
China11 Posts
On July 05 2006 05:57 Reason wrote: Perhaps then a standard opening with a switch to mech would be more efficient.. if you play right and secure a couple of expos you could bunk up, fact up, and make the switch safely with an appropriate amount of units, plus you still have your previous marinemedic army. I've done this before and it works, but if I'm going to mech I prefer to do it hardcore. MnM with goliath support (although i didnt mention it earlier) is one of the most effective armies vs zerg ive ever seen, give it a try sometime. You will have less gas for vessels if you do that Few goliaths will do nothing I think | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
Few goliaths does a lot, they are very good, and im talking about standard TvZ play plus 1-2 fac goliath. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On July 05 2006 06:30 Reason wrote: I will have less gas for vessels if I do what??? I played a pure mech game (four marines) into tank/goli and I had 2 armories going and 3 vessels with irradiate off two bases keep that in mind all of you when talking shit to me about no gas for vessels. Few goliaths does a lot, they are very good, and im talking about standard TvZ play plus 1-2 fac goliath. Please, just stop. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
On July 05 2006 06:30 Reason wrote: I will have less gas for vessels if I do what??? I played a pure mech game (four marines) into tank/goli and I had 2 armories going and 3 vessels with irradiate off two bases keep that in mind all of you when talking shit to me about no gas for vessels. Few goliaths does a lot, they are very good, and im talking about standard TvZ play plus 1-2 fac goliath. lol yes, 3 vessel+irradiate +2armory +gollies, i wonder why you didnt just go mass 3-3 bc from 8 starports | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
What would you want goliaths for? Extra range against mutalisks? But marines already outrange mutalisks, so it's not like midgame zerg can hit and run your attack-moved midgame blob. Extra range to hit guardians? But vessels are better against guardians anyway, and guardians can't abuse cliffs when they're irradiated and dead. Extra ground damage? But marines do more damage, although it takes two marines to do comparable damage to one goliath against ultralisks (so the advantage is somewhat nullified, not reversed, attacking ultralisks). Kill lurkers? Why not use vessels and/or tanks? Anyway, dark swarm is going to make you cry. Yes, it's true that most people may overlook some units, but I think terrans are best off spending gas elsewhere: to make groud forces deal more damage and take less damage, scout freely without using units (hax!), make units that get free kills every couple of minutes and can kill stuff under swarm, make units that deal massive splash damage that can hurt under swarm as well as steamroll lurkers, make units that heal your ground troops as they're being attacked and allow for multiple stims, and make units that totally rape lings and can hit somewhat under swarm. Goliaths can kind of fight and shoot? | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On July 05 2006 09:17 Myrmidon wrote: I'm not quite sure why you'd want to get both engineering bay upgrades plus both armory upgrades in order to make your ground army slightly weaker and reduce your vessel count. What would you want goliaths for? you DONT get both ebay upgrades and both armory upgrades, i'm talking about two different strategies and you would know that if you had bothered to read my posts before jumping at the chance to join in with the crowd. And you get goliaths because they are cool;) they do well against pretty much anything, you can use them for drops (super range, marines being sufficient vs muta doesn't make goliath range irrelevant, catching ovis over water (gogo waste irradiate) and dont get SLAIN by lurkers. On July 05 2006 08:58 Chill wrote: Please, just stop.  This is a strategy forum and I am discussing a valid strategy and im not breaking any rules, you have absolutely no right to ask that of me, especially since you don't give me any reason whatsoever.On July 05 2006 09:12 Sabbath wrote: lol yes, 3 vessel+irradiate +2armory +gollies, i wonder why you didnt just go mass 3-3 bc from 8 starports What the hell is that supposed to mean you fucking noob..? Are you trying to be funny? You know it's pretty sad that your trying to be funny by making fun of how ridiculous my strat is when I've done it.. if you think I'm joking I've got the replay. So to all .. disappointed  | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On July 05 2006 06:30 Reason wrote: I will have less gas for vessels if I do what??? I played a pure mech game (four marines) into tank/goli and I had 2 armories going and 3 vessels with irradiate off two bases keep that in mind all of you when talking shit to me about no gas for vessels. Few goliaths does a lot, they are very good, and im talking about standard TvZ play plus 1-2 fac goliath. are you talking about pure mech or using gols as an additive to your main force? you keep switching between the 2. and both are bad except on certain maps. for the reasons i stated, as well as multiple other people, that you chose to make irrelevant, wrong arguments against and then ignore. chill is right please stfu now. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
This is all I am saying and have been trying to say. Apologies to all if you feel I have been ignoring you or not taking on board what you have said. Mech vs Zerg is possible. When doing so, a quick vult/expo opening into goliaths, goliath/tank, goliath/valk with vultures included where necessary/possible + relevant armory support is what I have found works nicely. If you don't want to do that, you can open standard play, then make the switch to mech later so you will have a biomech force, obviously you would not have ebay upgs because you are planning the switch to mech entirely, in time. Alternatively, just play your own standard TvZ, but hey, try throwing in a few gols, I have done so and it works quite nicely. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
and saying that it works for you is not going to convince anyone its good, because on almost every map with a gas nat it isnt. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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venusian.kohai
Canada741 Posts
On July 05 2006 11:36 Reason wrote: What the hell is that supposed to mean you fucking noob..? Are you trying to be funny? You know it's pretty sad that your trying to be funny by making fun of how ridiculous my strat is when I've done it.. if you think I'm joking I've got the replay. So to all .. disappointed Show us the replay, I'm intrigued by how you work that strategy | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
If the zerg is too newb, I only won because of a certain thing, or im too horrible to even be posting then tell me and I'll do it again, better, hopefully and ill post on two conditions 1.dont laugh at me for any of the reasons I mentioned above 2.you tell me how to post replays -.- | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
Yes this is a strategy forum and you've got the right to post here; that doesn't mean you get to spew your opinoin (which is wrong) all over the place. Mech vs Zerg is possible. Okay, we're off to a good start. Defiler / Queen only is also possible. Winning with your feet is possible. Let's change this sentence to read "Anything is possible." When doing so, a quick vult/expo opening into goliaths, goliath/tank, goliath/valk with vultures included where necessary/possible + relevant armory support is what I have found works nicely. Ok. If you don't want to do that, you can open standard play, then make the switch to mech later so you will have a biomech force, obviously you would not have ebay upgs because you are planning the switch to mech entirely, in time. No, this is where you lose me. You don't open MnM and then switch to mech. What would be the advantage of that? You've invested in Barracks and I suppose Academy upgrades. Why did you build these Marines if you're planning on switching to Mech? Give me one reason why? You're going to try to break his Sunkens, which won't work, now you're going to have like 12 Marines, 3 Medics, and a handful of Goliaths. He has 9 Mutalisks and 2 morphing gas expansions. Now you can't move out because you're in the transition to mech. By the time you move out he's got a huge Mutalisk force and 4 running geysers. You're fucked. You can't win that. Alternatively, just play your own standard TvZ, but hey, try throwing in a few gols, I have done so and it works quite nicely. Please. What is the reason you're adding Goliaths? WHY? As already mentioned 3 times, Marines outrange Mutalisks anyways. For every 5 Goliaths you get 1 Vessel, 1 Medic, and 7 Marines. Goliaths let you hit Mutalisks farther, but Irradiate already has quite superior range. 1 Irradiate is going to hurt Zerg a lot more than a couple of Goliath hits. Frankly, gas is so precious in TvZ I don't know how you can consider wasting it on Goliaths. Would you care to test this out? I'd like to play you best of 5 (7? 9?) where you have to use Goliaths and I'll do whatever. I just can't see how you figure this is going to add any value to your army. Mech CAN work but it's very hard. If your Vultures fail, you pretty much should fold up shop because you're not going to be able to leave your base for the next 10 minutes. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On July 05 2006 14:37 Chill wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again: Stop! ok. bye. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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STD
Sweden350 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
and werent you going away? | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On July 06 2006 07:58 Reason wrote: Lol it doesn't matter that it's easy to scout, the fact that your about to play a Bo5 and you've already decided on the strategy it defeats the point of a game. Never heard about this thing of don't think of a strategy and stick to it no matter what ? According to your "sprinkle in Goliath" theory, it shouldn't matter, because if you don't open Mech you should be able to switch to it. I'm going to be playing normally anyways, I'm not going to do anything that takes advantage of Mech. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
another weakness in mech. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
I'm just saying it's cool, and can work, I know MnM probably works better 99% of the time.  | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On July 06 2006 08:16 Chill wrote: I'm going to be playing normally anyways, I'm not going to do anything that takes advantage of Mech. ach but now your just handicapping yourself no?? maybe it really doesn't matter if you both know what the strats are, On July 06 2006 08:19 HungZerg wrote: even if you open mech and your opponent knows your going to it doesnt really matter because he doesnt have to change from standard zvt play to counter you until well after he would have scouted it anyway. another weakness in mech. I always just viewed that as a dead giveaway but with high level gaming I suppose it would be pretty difficult to keep it a secret...  Chill if you really are interested in playing, I was thinking of us playing QUITE few games, not just 5, say maybe a Bo3/Bo5 on every map that we decide is worth playing ( over a period of time of course ) and then we make a post and come to some sort of final conclusion (based on whatever variable we feel we have eliminated, say on ppl of our skill level, not sure how it's gonna work I don't know if you'd pwn me or not maybe we can try you terran and me zerg sometimes fuknose) and put in the games we think show the pro's and con's the best, or ones that are just pure sex either way give me your thoughts On July 06 2006 08:53 Myrmidon wrote: Well, I read all the posts and was legitimately confused as to when you were talking about heavy mech or just standard + 1-2 fac gol. sorry TT I'll try to make more sense in future | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On July 06 2006 08:34 Reason wrote: HungZerg im really trying to be diplomatic and your just pissing me off with every post you send.. I don't mind if you totally disagree with me and give me reasons why, i'll just give you reasons why I disagree with you, but we already tried that and you just got pissed off at me. So now im not trying to argue with you, but give you other options since you think im talking shit. I really am trying dude, I know we got off on the wrong foot but stop biting my heels. I think you can open mech and win, you don't. So try a transition to mech, that's all im saying. And since I've given a variety of strats, all in favour of mech (not that I don't understand it's drawbacks), I don't see how I have ever argued not in favour of it I'm just saying it's cool, and can work, I know MnM probably works better 99% of the time. whenever someone points out why your arguments are wrong you just say "ok dont use it then", i didnt say you argued against it you just drop it and refuse to support it anymore yet you still say it is viable. which is just retarded. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
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dronebabo
10866 Posts
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
Hung didn't you read anything I just said... I'm totally putting the ball in your court here and your still calling me retarded. I refused to support my ideas FURTHER because 1. You were calling me retarded for it 2. I was being told to stop So I did stop, and now I'm a retard because of that. Edit: Chill I can't play tonight I need sleep for work and we in different time zones, I'll come online and whisper you at some point and we can arrange.. | ||
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RiSE
United States3182 Posts
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gH-i850
United States7 Posts
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
On July 06 2006 12:01 gH-i850 wrote: one could argue that with this style you would actually have more gas with goliath / vulture to produce vessels. If you consider it most TvZ this day especially with fast xpo builds are using a 2 fac build. Medics (25 gas) Firebats(25 gas) Tanks (100 gas) Vessels (225 gas) owning a T(priceless) sike j/k. Anyway, with metal its just vultures (0 gas) goliaths (50 gas). So in a way you could at a minimum still produce the same amount of vessels with your goliaths as you could with a normal M&M / Tank build. One could argue that you should try it out first before making things up. | ||
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ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
mutalisks have to get pretty close to attack. mutalisks have a range a bit lower than a marine. goliaths have huge range and have range upgrade. if you can spread out your goliaths and put them in a line instead of a grouped up circle, you can do pretty good if you micro vs the mutas. think about marines arc formation vs lurkers. but if mutas are grouped up and are attacking focus fire or attacking close to the goliaths, they will lose. | ||
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Th_Terran
122 Posts
Just look at Oov, he got PWNed by IXP trying to do mech. | ||
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8882
2718 Posts
NEW PATCH CAME OUT? GOLIATHS HAVE SHIELDS??????????????????????????? the problem with metal, is the fact, that as you are massing goliaths, the opponent is massing mutas + exping using free minerals when you go out - he will destroy your base and be able to retreat his mutas to save main perhaps you will kill the main, but you will lose your own and here is the problem you dont have your main vs a zerg who has 2-3 expos in other scenario the zerg goes hydra+muta and you need to include tanks again the problem is the harass however in some situations, if you harass well at the beginning - perhaps with some sort of drop, it is pretty good basically you just need to slow down the zerg and dont let him expand sometimes you can get 3 valkiries and own huge amounts of mutalisks, but smart zergs switch to hydras and valkiries cost a lot of gas | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On July 06 2006 12:19 8882 wrote: WTF ARE 1-1-1 GOLIATHS? NEW PATCH CAME OUT? GOLIATHS HAVE SHIELDS??????????????????????????? Try playing the game you love posting about so much once in a while, when you see goliaths they have 3 upgrade icons in the wireframe. 1-1-1 I write it as I see it, and if you weren't so eager to surf the waves of flame you would have thought about what you said, and not said it.  | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On July 05 2006 11:36 Reason wrote: you DONT get both ebay upgrades and both armory upgrades, i'm talking about two different strategies and you would know that if you had bothered to read my posts before jumping at the chance to join in with the crowd. And you get goliaths because they are cool;) they do well against pretty much anything, you can use them for drops (super range, marines being sufficient vs muta doesn't make goliath range irrelevant, catching ovis over water (gogo waste irradiate) and dont get SLAIN by lurkers. This is a strategy forum and I am discussing a valid strategy and im not breaking any rules, you have absolutely no right to ask that of me, especially since you don't give me any reason whatsoever.What the hell is that supposed to mean you fucking noob..? Are you trying to be funny? You know it's pretty sad that your trying to be funny by making fun of how ridiculous my strat is when I've done it.. if you think I'm joking I've got the replay. So to all .. disappointed you are the idiot who theorycrafts too much. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On July 06 2006 11:00 Reason wrote: What have I said that's "wrong" dronebabo Hung didn't you read anything I just said... I'm totally putting the ball in your court here and your still calling me retarded. I refused to support my ideas FURTHER because 1. You were calling me retarded for it 2. I was being told to stop So I did stop, and now I'm a retard because of that. Edit: Chill I can't play tonight I need sleep for work and we in different time zones, I'll come online and whisper you at some point and we can arrange.. you didnt stop, you just stop providing an explanation. although you were doing that before you were told to stop. so either stop or actually support your statements | ||
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
Replays: http://rapidshare.de/files/25160225/mechterran.rar.html | ||
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himurakenshin
Canada1845 Posts
On July 06 2006 15:43 Reason wrote: Try playing the game you love posting about so much once in a while, when you see goliaths they have 3 upgrade icons in the wireframe. 1-1-1 I write it as I see it, and if you weren't so eager to surf the waves of flame you would have thought about what you said, and not said it. Goliaths would be upraded 1-1, where it is 1 armour, 1 weapons. There is no third upgrade like in protoss for 1 armour, 1 shield, 1 weapon. The reason why there are 3 upgrades in the wireframe is because the goliath has two weapons, so both get upgraded one, similar to the cruiser. However the upgrade would be still 1-1 and not 1-1-1. | ||
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
On July 06 2006 21:54 himurakenshin wrote: Yeah, it's not like you could upgrade the goliaths to be 1 armor, 1 ground weapon, and then 3 air weapons. It's just 1-1.Goliaths would be upraded 1-1, where it is 1 armour, 1 weapons. There is no third upgrade like in protoss for 1 armour, 1 shield, 1 weapon. The reason why there are 3 upgrades in the wireframe is because the goliath has two weapons, so both get upgraded one, similar to the cruiser. However the upgrade would be still 1-1 and not 1-1-1. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On July 06 2006 12:17 Th_Terran wrote: Mech works so bad against Zergs these days..... just dont do it. Just look at Oov, he got PWNed by IXP trying to do mech. What if Oov played MnM and still got "PWNed" by ipx, would you tell us not to do it then?? Why not post the rep/vod or discuss the game and talk about WHY he lost rather than just being useless. On July 06 2006 15:53 Night[Mare] wrote: you are the idiot who theorycrafts too much. It's not theorycraft if I've done it with reps fucking die. On July 06 2006 12:12 Ghin wrote: One could argue that you should try it out first before making things up. One does argue that you should stfu. How is he making things up .. everything he said makes sense and probably explains how I managed On July 05 2006 06:30 Reason wrote: a pure mech game (four marines) into tank/goli and I had 2 armories going and 3 vessels with irradiate off two bases. On July 05 2006 09:12 Sabbath wrote: lol yes, 3 vessel+irradiate +2armory +gollies, i wonder why you didnt just go mass 3-3 bc from 8 starports It was +goli/tank actually Why is it that when faced with something correct from someone you view to be entirely incorrect, you ALL just find some shit to talk about and post it. On July 06 2006 22:05 Blind wrote: Yeah, it's not like you could upgrade the goliaths to be 1 armor, 1 ground weapon, and then 3 air weapons. It's just 1-1. You are exactly right, which is why I never said that and never will. I EXPLAINED IN MY POST THAT YOU ALL QUOTED THAT I WROTE IT AS I SEE IT. I KNOW THERE ARE NOT SHIELD ON GOLIATHS, I FUCKING SAID IT - ITS THREE IN THE WIREFRAME, On July 06 2006 15:43 Reason wrote: Try playing the game you love posting about so much once in a while, when you see goliaths they have 3 upgrade icons in the wireframe. 1-1-1 I write it as I see it, and if you weren't so eager to surf the waves of flame you would have thought about what you said, and not said it. There are four upgrade choices in the armory, not six, you know this, I know this. When you click on goliath and look in the middle, there are three icons, you know this, I know this. fags  Edit:If the same people just spew more shit at me after this, don't expect a reply ever, so really all your doing is taking a cheap shot as I'm not going to defend myself, you know that I can but I won't as there's multiple of you and your all convincing each other that what your posting about what I said really matters, but I can assure you that your all a bunch of cock suckers. | ||
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
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IIICodeIIIIIII
China1101 Posts
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dronebabo
10866 Posts
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
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8882
2718 Posts
On July 06 2006 15:43 Reason wrote: Try playing the game you love posting about so much once in a while, when you see goliaths they have 3 upgrade icons in the wireframe. 1-1-1 I write it as I see it, and if you weren't so eager to surf the waves of flame you would have thought about what you said, and not said it. if you werent a newbie you would know that you pay for 2 upgrades and get 3! and no! goliaths dont use the u-238 upgrades! or infrantry weapons! despite the fact they have dual cannons! they just use standard mech attack upgrade! you havent played for a long time! the game has evolved! no more chainguns! ![[image loading]](http://dachimage.free.fr/images/galerie/Starcraft/Beta//scbw_beta_04.jpg) | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
rofl wtf @ the goliath commands pane, it has a play and a stop button? :0 | ||
BroOd
Austin10831 Posts
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Th_Terran
122 Posts
This is the kind of argument I cannot fathom... [QUOTE]On July 06 2006 12:17 Th_Terran wrote: Mech works so bad against Zergs these days..... just dont do it. Just look at Oov, he got PWNed by IXP trying to do mech.[/QUOTE] What if Oov played MnM and still got "PWNed" by ipx, would you tell us not to do it then?? Why not post the rep/vod or discuss the game and talk about WHY he lost rather than just being useless. U can stfu I didnt mean it was the worst strat ever and ur gunna get PWNED everytime u use it.... i mean it works a hell of a lot less than mnms do. Do u see Oov getting pwned more when he uses mnm? No. How bout u understand what ur reading b4 u go saying shit that doesnt give the answer. | ||
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
angry people = fun times :D | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On July 07 2006 17:11 QuietIdiot wrote: OK NOW I MUST "LOL" angry people = fun times :D What country are you from this time? ^_^ | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
On July 04 2006 06:06 Reason wrote: Goliaths are better versus plague also because they DONT RELY ON MEDICS WHO FUCK UP ON PLAGUE and don't get raped by a couple ling hits after being plagued... I'm late to this thread but I didnt notice anyone pointing out that Goliaths who get hit by plague get killed in ONE ling hit. How is that any different than marines/medics?? At least with medics you can run them away for a bit and they wont bother using up their juice, then when the plague is over you can restore your whole force. On July 04 2006 08:23 Reason wrote: Im almost amused your considering hydra ling to counter metal. Almost. Why? Because it is quite good vs metal, particularly early on. You would be surprised. Maybe play some better Zergs, dogg. And lastly you forgot the importance of having a BILLION MARINES firing at once and how much their upgrades help them rape. +1 weapon for a marine is a 15% increase in attack strength, you also get a ton of them. So its just a huge bonus to have upgrades higher than your opponent. I'm not saying mech is unwinnable but they both have strengths and weaknesses and imo Mech is a little worse in practice because of how much less agressive early on it is. edit: Fuck I thought this thread was only 2 pages I didnt realize it was 6 and had already run its course: [ | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
On July 07 2006 17:19 evanthebouncy~ wrote: What country are you from this time? ^_^ A small democratic muslim country bordering Russia. A model muslim country imo | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On July 07 2006 17:09 Th_Terran wrote: U can stfu I didnt mean it was the worst strat ever and ur gunna get PWNED everytime u use it.... i mean it works a hell of a lot less than mnms do. Do u see Oov getting pwned more when he uses mnm? No. How bout u understand what ur reading b4 u go saying shit that doesnt give the answer. How about since your writing in MY LANGUAGE you understand what your writing before you post it. | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
On July 07 2006 14:06 8882 wrote: if you werent a newbie you would know that you pay for 2 upgrades and get 3! and no! goliaths dont use the u-238 upgrades! or infrantry weapons! despite the fact they have dual cannons! they just use standard mech attack upgrade! you havent played for a long time! the game has evolved! no more chainguns! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL I KNOW THAT IM NOT SAYING THAT YOU PAY FOR THREE, I said there are three icons, I've said that twice, try learning better English I can't believe your still getting it wrong. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
the only people bugging you about the 1-1-1 are just dicking with you and those who are serious are even less intelligent than yourself, and yet you keep replying to them. | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On July 07 2006 19:04 Chill wrote: We had replays already. I thought Blind and I played "decently". ahaha i havent watched them (A) edit: just watched them, yeah they're ok !btw my comment about replays was pointed towards reason, i wanted him to SHOW US how it is done | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On July 08 2006 11:21 Cloud wrote: Mech is a solid build on the right hands, it will work vs an opponent of the same level as you ;o Wow, thanks for bringing so much depth to this discussion with no evidence and even no glimpse of what you were thinking when you wrote that. Nevermind all the problems everyone has mentioned in this thread (of which you refuted none of them), mech's solid! Mech is a very difficullt build in the wrong hands; it will make your victory much harder than if you just played straight up TvZ. | ||
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jG]BeefcakeS
Qatar75 Posts
Mech vs zerg is awesome. | ||
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