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Also, you should consider that medics make marines have unlimited health as long as they are microed well, while goliaths have to be repaired. Goliaths suck vs swarm, plague, ensnare, ultras, mass crackling, mass upgraded hydra, and so on. M&M doesnt.
If you start playing with a mech build and the game becomes very long, you will be at a disadvantage because mech sucks long game tvz and you wont have your marines upgraded and wont have those 8 barracks you need. This is assuming the zerg sucks and lets you last very long while you went mech. Fact is that he should kill you either quick with mass mutaling or midgame with fast defiler and lings (remember, you dont have upgraded firebats to stop those cracklings, and goliaths are ranged units). Lets not even get upgraded mutas into the equation (goliaths do explosive antiair damage, ie suck).
Anyway, I hope my opinion was insightful to anyone. I'm sure one of those A+ that hang here could tell you much more (please do).
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On July 04 2006 04:43 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2006 15:59 Drowsy wrote:On July 03 2006 14:18 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Gols with their superior range and with + weapon upgrades become cost effective vs muta ling once you reach a high number of gols. They do enough dmg before muta/ling get in range to make them extremely powerful(same reason 200 supply 3/3 metal tvp is almost impossible to stop without high tech). However it is very difficult vs a good zerg to mass that many gols. Most good zergs will continually attack with lots of muta ling while taking expos and at low numbers goliaths are extremly bad. Not really, not to mention once hive comes in for zerg, and it will be in by the time you have thatnumber goliaths, dark swarm+pure lings will rape the shit out of you and he won't even need mutas. And getting that high a number of gols automatically takes vessels out of the equation. Your logic is very very irritating. Not once in either mine nor Reason's post was there any mention of dark swarm or defiler use. Basically what you did is like adding another variable to a math equation and then telling me that my equation is wrong because it doesn't include that variable. Obviously if hes using dark swarm and lings then one would mix vultures and mass mines. This would allow for more gas and vessel use. I notice a lot of your posts are more focused on being right then actually using real game expierence and knowledge. So if you're going to say not really; please respond to the original example that i was responding to. Otherwise its just comparing apples to oranges. They aren't related. Also in case there is some confusion - I am aware that MnM + vessel/tank is better at high levels of play in virtually all situations. The lone exception being, as I believe FrozenArbiter mentioned, maps with no gas in second natural. In general Mech(with scan) is strong vs lurker/ling and weak vs muta/hydra.
Firebats are much more cost effective vs crackling and swarm than vultures and mines. Mines hit your own units, vultures are ranged and dont work under swarm, firebats do splash damage, mines are unreliable, especially vs zergs with really good micro (send air units to distract while suiciding few lings to mines, then send those 200/200 crackling and swarm). And plague (medics dont work on mech). SK Terran is clearly much better against that.
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Another thing that you might want to consider is the fact that you can get an e-bay much faster than an armory, so you can get those M&M upgraded faster. And also, the infantry upgrades give you more bonus for attack, especially if you consider that you can buy 2 marines for less than what a goliath would cost you, and you will have more marines firing at once than goliaths because they are smaller.
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Please read my entire post sabbath. Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? I am NOT saying mech is in any way greater than mnm. In fact I believe mnm to be in almost all ways superior to mech. However I don't think you really understand the whole playstyle of mech. Mech builds are designed to end the game at around the 13 minute mark. Right when you hit 1/1/1 upgrades for gols. Btw I've used mech against B level ranked zergs and won. The whole idea is you make a vult and harass early while adding 2 facts with machine shops. You then make 2 tanks and resiege siege and while they are moving out reenforce with ~4 vults. You use this to quickly presssure his front while you take an expand. Add an ebay/bunkers and make a few marines to prepare for the eneviable muta harass while you make a armory. From here you mass up and and upgrade weapons quickly followed by armor and move out with a large army when both are done. The problem with this build is it is very very counterable and it is inconsistant. MnM is definitely better but mech IS playable. Oh I forgot to mention that this style of mech should only be attempted vs a 3 hatching zerg with a fairly late gas.
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On July 04 2006 04:39 Sabbath wrote:
you should try playing someone above A- or A rank, maybe it will change your opinion
there is an excellent reason why people dont use mech extensively, considering it is easier to micro and the build order is simpler, it seems to be a mistery for you
How do you know im not an A-/A rank player? If I'm not, and I play someone vastly superior in skill to me, who could beat me with virtually any strat they choose, if they are SO MUCH BETTER THAN ME, why would this change my opinion on strategy alone?? I would just be losing because they are better than me overall... And what the hell is the mystery about? You are a confused individual. 
On July 04 2006 04:46 Sabbath wrote:
Also, you should consider that medics make marines have unlimited health as long as they are microed well, while goliaths have to be repaired. Goliaths suck vs swarm, plague, ensnare, ultras, mass crackling, mass upgraded hydra, and so on. M&M doesnt.
(goliaths do explosive antiair damage, ie suck).
Anyway, I hope my opinion was insightful to anyone. I'm sure one of those A+ that hang here could tell you much more (please do).
What's the point in considering the fact that marines have unlimited health as long as they are microed well... they don't, it doesn't happen, it never will.
Goliaths are better vs swarm than marines because one swarm is only going to cover 1-5 of your 24+ golis.. as opposed to half of your mnm force.
Goliaths are better versus plague also because they DONT RELY ON MEDICS WHO FUCK UP ON PLAGUE and don't get raped by a couple ling hits after being plagued...
Goliaths are better against ensare than marines as the ensnare spell has a small radius.. nice micro opportunities exist to ensare a group of clustered MnM then flank and destroy.. mass goliaths with 1-5 ensared goliaths... oh no they are all going to die help me, help me please.
Ultras rape the shit out of rines, goliaths don't do too badly, micro them like hydras versus speedzeal.
Mass crackling gets raped by both, and the whole point of mass upgraded hydras is that they CAN kill MnM...
Goliaths are renowned for being one of the best anti air ground units.. apparently now they "suck"
your "opinion" was a load of horrible misinformation, so how about putting it into practice before posting it over the internet?
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ya gols are bad vs mutas, like he said they have explosive damage which does 3/4 damage or whatever vs whatever type of unit mutas are. dunno the details but hes right, until you get good attack ups on gols they arent good vs muta.
and gols are just as bad vs plague as mm, either way if you stand and fight you lose badly. with mm if you can retreat and seperate the units until plague wears off you can then heal and be perfectly fine again, whereas with gols you need to repair or you're walking around with a bunch of 3 health goliaths.
mmf is better vs swarm than gols are, mmf is very maneuverable and bats can fight under swarm, to an extent, whereas gols are relatively slow and clumsy, a line of swarms across them and hit with hydra ling and the hydra ling will get a significant number of hits in while the gols are retreating, and a good def user will be able to follow you with swarms for a while, meaning by the time you're able to stop retreating and fight your gols are already well damaged.
and no, mech isnt bad late game, especially in the right situation. play conservatively with standard mm tank and when your opponent gets hive tech turtle up with mines/tanks/mm and take the other 2 gases on your half of the map, then go tank vult, adding in gols if they go air. mines all over seriously fuck up ult ling def, as does mass tank. whereas at this point even 3/3 rines get owned by fully upped ult ling, especially with good swarm/plague use.
that being said it can only be done in certain situations and most good z's will switch to mostly hydra with a few ults and take you out before you get a significant tank force going, and except on certain maps mech is greatly inferior to standard play.
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My build incorporates double armories, by the time he gets a worrying amount of muta im 1-1-1 and I got port + science-_-
Your comments on plague and swarm are nonsense.
This whole marines heal and goliaths don't argument really has to stop now. I know that, and I'm not trying to deny that. however your only going to repair OR heal a unit if it survives...
"Retreat and seperate the units until plague wears off, then you can heal and be perfectly fine again" .... The whole point of plague is that that doesn't happen, he plagues you then attacks and kills (no running away and healing...)
In a battle more goliaths are likely to survive when plague is involved than marines, for the same reason I mentioned with ensnare.
Goliaths are BIG BOYS. Swarm only going to get a couple bothered, for a short amount of time.
Your solution?
"A line of swarms across them and hit with hydra ling and the hydra ling will get a significant number of hits in while the gols are retreating, and a good def user will be able to follow you with swarms for a while...."
How many in each line?? 3-5? follow for a while? any significant amount of following with swarm and your talking about 10+ well casted swarms, every time there is a fight. wake up.
I also feel compelled to clarify, as FoReveR felt he had to, that I'm not saying metal is superior than MnM TvZ, I play 99% of my games with MnM.
Goliaths CAN be superior to MnM in a variety of ways and STILL be inferior in the end you know, it's O.K.... 
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by good ups i meant more along the lines of +2, +1 gols are still not great vs mutas until you have a good mass of them going. by that time they can either have a shitload of muta hydra ling or whatever combination of units they want, or they can have hive tech (supported by a good econ). either way you're gonna be in trouble unless your macro is significantly better than theirs.
and no. my comments on plague and swarm made perfect sense and were entirely true. perhaps you just dont understand them.
yes the point of plague is to not allow them to get away. however like i said if gols OR mm get plagued and have to fight, they both die quite easily, i dont see how you can argue with this and if you do want to try you are retarded. you can sometimes run away, and if you do your mm become useable again after plague is done. with gols you have to repair all of them, a time consuming process, before they are worthwhile again. it is also easier to run away with mm for the same reasons they are better vs swarm, much better maneuverability.
unless you are perfectly set up every time ONE attack of 6-7 well placed swarms and a good hydra ling flank will whipe out your entire army. a good sized mech army is a bigass investment. if you lose 3 groups of rines it sucks, but its not the end of the world. if you lose 2 1/2 groups of gols and 6 tanks without inflicting alot of damage you are now SIGNIFICANTLY behind, and wont be able to pressure them for some time, giving them enough time to get 12 ults + the remainder of their hydra ling and run your ass over. it doesnt take perfect swarming every time, it takes one good attack.
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Why bring in retardation to a strategical discussion of a computer game... 
I understood exactly what you said, which is why I wrote what I did to explain why it was wrong, as opposed to going umm could you explain what you just said.
By good ups you meant more like +2, what does im 1-1-1 with starport and science imply to you ?
I didn't argue that gols and rines don't both die easily to plague, I said marines die easier, which is true.
How is repairing gols time consuming ?? Clone repair 3-4 scv... seconds dude. Whats this maneuverability stuff about they can both change direction at the same speed, rines just walk a bit faster. Considering you have many control groups of marine medic (if you want a good force) and 1-3 with goliaths, one could argue they, in reality, more maneuverable.
Have you ever lost a mass metal army to "one good attack" involving hydra ling and defilers?? All you have to do is micro or just plain run away.. if my army is running away you can't destroy it on the move, you might pick off a couple of golis that's it. Everytime you dextrously perform one of your good attacks, ill run like a bitch. So your going to have to perfect swarm every time, or ill just own you when you do it badly. Remember mech armies fill screens.. how many swarms to a screen ? =/
theorycraft with a little obvious statement in the middle see if you can spot it:
unless you are perfectly set up every time ONE attack of 6-7 well placed swarms and a good hydra ling flank will whipe out your entire army. a good sized mech army is a bigass investment. if you lose 3 groups of rines it sucks, but its not the end of the world. if you lose 2 1/2 groups of gols and 6 tanks without inflicting alot of damage you are now SIGNIFICANTLY behind, and wont be able to pressure them for some time, giving them enough time to get 12 ults + the remainder of their hydra ling and run your ass over. it doesnt take perfect swarming every time, it takes one good attack
Im almost amused your considering hydra ling to counter metal. Almost. 
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just because you think you understand it doesnt mean you do.
if you mean +2 then say +2, when you say 1-1-1 i somehow assume you mean +1, and the whole point was by the time you get to +2 theyve switched away from muta so its fairly irrelevant.
its not cloning but that doesnt matter, it takes longer to repair 20 gols than it does for meds to heal a decent rine army. not to set up, but for the scvs to actually repair. stimmed rines are faster than gols, but the size of the gols is more important. you preach actually playing before giving advice and yet you dont seem to realize than moving larges groups of goliaths at once in the same direction they tend to get stuck around one another and dont all move back quickly.
and if you dont think you can lose an army to one attack you are playing shitty z's. running away from a GOOD flank under GOOD swarms is no where near as easy as you make it sound. if they manage to pin you against a wall or something you will lose nearly all your army, you cannot always get out of it no matter how quickly you run.
what amuses me is the fact that you seem to think you know what you're talking about. well upgraded hydra ling under swarms supported by good macro/economy does very well vs metal, unless you have a massive tank force in which case no ground units are going to do well, to save time/economy until you can go ult ling or ult hydra ling.
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lets generalize this,
mech > zerg in land units
mech >= zerg in islands.
mech <<< zerg if he goes muta,
why because mech can be good only if you 1 damage his econ by harass of any sort, 2 when at critical mass. if z got muta and T didnt harass very well, mech goes down.. simply because T cannot sustain the production of mech with only one base, nor is T at critical mass when z has 24 muta.
in mech T needs to invest all his time and resources in order to get effective units, once those units die T cannot fight anymore, have you everseen tvz mech that wins once the main push is obliterated? no, cuz its mostly harras->macro->when at critical mass roll over z.
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I do know what im talking about, and I posted it. It's for everyone to read. I'm not going to discuss something with someone who is just disagreeing with what I'm saying for the sake of it, nit-picking about writing things in the proper manner or giving me specific situations when im trying to talk generally. Read Forevers post he's better at explaining things to people like you than I am.. How often you have hive defiler ultra hydra blah blah in less than 13 minutes?
My build is a light rine opening into 1/2 fac vult with mines, expo,
then mass gols or tank/valk or vult/valk/goli or w/e is necessary depending on the zergs build order. Then no more expansions unless an unusual situation occurs.. so your just macroing off two bases while doing as much as you can with what you've got, and if your not incredibly behind, a total noob or just got owned somehow, the zerg's not going to have the macro power your speaking of.
peace ~~
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On July 04 2006 09:13 Reason wrote:
.. How often you have hive defiler ultra hydra blah blah in less than 13 minutes?
My build is a light rine opening into 1/2 fac vult with mines, expo,
then mass gols or tank/valk or vult/valk/goli or w/e is necessary depending on the zergs build order. Then no more expansions unless an unusual situation occurs.. so your just macroing off two bases while doing as much as you can with what you've got, and if your not incredibly behind, a total noob or just got owned somehow, the zerg's not going to have the macro power your speaking of.
peace ~~
you theorycraft too much. You go mech = you cant pressure = zerg takes 3rd gas goes hive. fuck if you go vults i REALLY doubt that zerg is going to go full ground, meaning he will take map control for a while, and power up econ.
ultras rape the shit out of golies, because they tend to be the "targets" and making crackling tear apart all metal (yes, i've played against good terrans and raped this way, for the record: b b+ a a- terrans) and if you add swarm its going to be fucking annoying because no mech is able to fight under swarm. please.. run away? ARE YOU SURE? i want to see leave your base and let zerg clean it up while your army waits until swarm wores off..
fuck you should play a lot of games instead of argueing non-sense
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On July 04 2006 09:13 Reason wrote:
I do know what im talking about, and I posted it. It's for everyone to read. I'm not going to discuss something with someone who is just disagreeing with what I'm saying for the sake of it, nit-picking about writing things in the proper manner or giving me specific situations when im trying to talk generally. Read Forevers post he's better at explaining things to people like you than I am.. How often you have hive defiler ultra hydra blah blah in less than 13 minutes?
My build is a light rine opening into 1/2 fac vult with mines, expo,
then mass gols or tank/valk or vult/valk/goli or w/e is necessary depending on the zergs build order. Then no more expansions unless an unusual situation occurs.. so your just macroing off two bases while doing as much as you can with what you've got, and if your not incredibly behind, a total noob or just got owned somehow, the zerg's not going to have the macro power your speaking of.
peace ~~
im disagreeing because you're wrong, not to nitpick. a low pressure opening like that, no substantial rine force, kinda fast expo, then waiting to get a decent mech force going. especially considering he'll go muta once he sees the vults out so they wont do shit. any competent z has plenty of macro power when given that kind of time to power/tech/mass.
and read what i said, it is very easy to delay with hydra ling swarm until you have enough saved up to go ults, not ult ling def right away. terran will not have a huge army in time barring any big advantage early, which they wont get with your passive build, if anything it gives z a big advantage early.
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Someone probably already posted this, but I don't want to look through what looks to be useless shit when I can just repeat what probably is already there in a smaller paragraph.
It's really simple why mech doesn't work as well as other strategies. You go mech, Zerg goes muta. You can't ever leave your base now because if you do the zerg will burn it to the ground. Then the zerg takes the entire map and bends your family over on top of the command center and next thing you know your sister is shooting out infested terrans.
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On July 02 2006 20:27 alpskomleko wrote:
Marines are small units whereas goliaths are not. That means the tend to clog up and be less effective with focus fire than marines. Medics don't work with mech units (except SCV, which is weird at best), and there is no way you can have ~10 SCVs repairing your goliaths all the time. Versus zerg you dont need that huge range since all their units except guardians are either melee or have a range similar to marines. Marines are cheap. Mechs are not. Also, marines are much more useful for the same reason that a single tank can die to just a few lings. They have a higher firing rate, they can switch their targets faster and you don't get many useless overkills (like dealing much excessive damage to a weak unit). And, boy, they have stim.
its not the fact that the goliaths are not small units. its the fact that MUTALISKS are small units.
they take crap damage from explosive damage which is what goliaths dish out.
marines do normal damage so they work better vs mutalisks.
muta ling > mech
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Calgary26003 Posts
On July 04 2006 12:37 Ghin wrote:
Someone probably already posted this, but I don't want to look through what looks to be useless shit when I can just repeat what probably is already there in a smaller paragraph.
It's really simple why mech doesn't work as well as other strategies. You go mech, Zerg goes muta. You can't ever leave your base now because if you do the zerg will burn it to the ground. Then the zerg takes the entire map and bends your family over on top of the command center and next thing you know your sister is shooting out infested terrans.
I typed this out awhile ago then deleted it. Your explination is more concise than mine was. I hope this makes the original poster stop defending Mech vs Zerg.
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Goliaths would cost more gas, and you should build less tanks to make sure that you've enough gas to build goliaths, and even - science vessels. It is sure that vessels are useful against zergs.
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I think the main thing is, MM micro is just SO MUCH COOLER!!!!!! XD Everyone loves watching and doing mm vs lurkerling micro etc. That is enough reason for me and many others I would expect.
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On July 04 2006 12:37 Ghin wrote:
Someone probably already posted this, but I don't want to look through what looks to be useless shit when I can just repeat what probably is already there in a smaller paragraph.
It's really simple why mech doesn't work as well as other strategies. You go mech, Zerg goes muta. You can't ever leave your base now because if you do the zerg will burn it to the ground. Then the zerg takes the entire map and bends your family over on top of the command center and next thing you know your sister is shooting out infested terrans.
Interesting post :lol:
But Mutas are still big threatens while you trains M&M
Missle Turrets are so weak...
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EPT
