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I'm new to SC and halfway through the missions I stopped playing the campaign and switched to playing the included extra maps. I've worked through The Small Divide, Boxer, and Bottleneck playing as Z against (P, T, Z) then T against (P, T, Z). For the last two weeks I'm stuck on Challenger playing Z v P. I've tried about thirty times. I'm getting beat by what I think is a 2 gate zealot rush: 1 small wave of 3 zealots followed by a big wave of 8-10. After the second big wave P expands and goes up on base count and I never recover. As a new player my micro is bad. I play conservative. I try to just get more bases than my opponent in good positions but it seems very hard to do this on Challenger.
I've tried various builds that have worked in the past (because they don't seem to need as good micro skills as other builds): fast spire then muta, mass hydra, fast (as I can manage) guardian. Since this is SC and not Broodwar I don't have access to Lurkers.
A lot of the advice about dealing with 2 gate zealot rush doesn't seem to apply because this is an island map and you need to get air units and overlord transport asap. I get the sense that Z needs to secure the near island expansion and the near mineral expansion to have any chance. I manage to get the island but can't hold the near mineral expansion.
I was hoping someone could give me advice about what might work in this match up on this map.
Thanks for any help.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Challenger
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In general, Zergs have always been weak on island maps, so I don't think that taking the island FAST is your best bet. What I would do is go 12 hatch at the second gas in your main, but pointed towards the choke, then 11 pool, 8 lings and sunks to hold the zealots (in general, 12 hatch should hold 2 gate without much trouble, if you know its coming). A useful trick is blocking sunks with your drones, minimizing the surface area zealots can attack and maximizing your damage output. Go lair with your first 100 gas and add your second gas. This is when you should go 2 hatch muta and punish his mineral line, flying back to the high ground that is behind the minerals for safety, and any expansions he has taken. This also makes it easier to hold off consequent Zealot-heavy attacks. I do agree that the mineral-only bases are difficult to take on this map for Zerg, so after you have 2 gas and mutas to protect the island is when I would suggest going for drop. Remember, you don't need speed overlords for this - slow lord will do just fine, and be faster. Once you have 3 gas I would begin transitioning into a ground army with hive/zergling/hydra/ultra and carapace upgrades.
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Build sunkens. Lots of sunkens. Like, all you should be making is drones. overlords and sunkens. Just march your way across the map with them. Protoss will eventually make a lone scout, and that's when you can start making spores. Take the non island expos once your main starts to get to about half depleted (and your sunken wall has extended that far).
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Is this against the AI? If so then hackle is correct. mass sunkens will stop Toss aggression
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If you just want to win, 4 pool all day every day  but I would just 12 hatch to the gas, go mutas and sim city...doesn't matter how bad your muta micro is you should be able to take out their eco...
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Thanks guys for such detailed map-relevant advice. I'm trying all of these ideas tonight. I should've mentioned at first that I'm against the computer here. Any human would've got bored to death wiping me out 30 times in a row.
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You don't need map advice against an AI.
All you need to do is block the initial rush and macro. The computer doesn't do 2 gate btw, it does 3 gate 12 zealot, opening with 12 nex or dt every once in a blue moon.
What Hacklebeast said actually probably works against a PC, but if you eventually intend to play against human players it's a terrible idea (defense can't attack, so opp just makes tons of expansions and huge economy and rolls over you).
The real advice you wanna focus on is getting your macro going. Make about 5-6 sunkens to block the initial rush, then just get a decent number of drones (30-40) and just mass X unit (hydra work well, muta/guard if island map) until you have 200/200 then attack. Rinse and repeat. PC soon dies. Focus on always having your hatcheries making stuff and keeping your minerals and gas below 500.
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^Lmaster gives good advice there...I guess I'll expand on my previous post a bit; ZvP against AI I always 12 Hatch -> 3 Hatch Hydra, get a good simcity with 2-3 sunkens, a couple lings and hydras, hold off initial attack with minimum fighting units and maximum drones, then just macro up a shit ton of hydras and a-move with some storm dodging...like L_master says, your focus should be keeping money under 500..
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United States196 Posts
Nice vid L_Master. I noticed you killed the music early on...did you know you can do that much faster by holding control and pressing "m"? Btw, what software did you use to record yourself?
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All of the included Blizzard maps are rather poorly made and imbalanced for the current metagame. I recommend downloading the ICCup map pack and trying some of those maps - most of them were used competitively and probably all of them are at least better than Blizzard's maps. Won't have that much of an effect playing vs AIs due to different strategies, but if you ever decide to face real opponents you'll be more prepared.
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On April 28 2013 12:01 BruceLee6783 wrote:
Nice vid L_Master. I noticed you killed the music early on...did you know you can do that much faster by holding control and pressing "m"? Btw, what software did you use to record yourself?
No I didn't realize that. Cool!
Software is just my normal streaming stuff, so OBS.
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Thanks for posting the video L_Master. I just got a free online class in Brood war.
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You really should not play on blizzard maps... They are just so bad... How is this more interesting than playing the campaign, anyways?
And since this is only a 2-player map, you should have nor problem winning very quickly, even without lurkers (beating a 3+ AI vs. 1 without lurkers admittedly tends to be hard and painful...)
Basically anything that comes from a 3 hatch double expo build wins against a toss AI. Try 12 mineral expo, 13 in-base gas expo (you will probably not even use this...), 12 pool, 11 gas. pump drones, get speed and mass lings. A quick weapons upgrade with your first 100 gas is a good option. If you want +1 weapons before zealots arrive, getting a 12 gas, before 3rd hatch and pool, with according evo timing (build evo shortly before gas is finished) should work.
If you feel insecure, you can always build 2 sunkens at every expo, but those are only to prevent zealots from attacking your workers and buy you enough time to bring in those lings (3 hotkeyed control groups should do the job.)
Once his attack is defeated, you can just overrun him 1a2a3a style.
If your scouting ovi spots him doing that stupid 8 expo into forge and cannons build, you can just kill him right away with a handful of lings.
Toss AI never goes for a DT rush against a Zerg.
Or just 4/5-pool him, kill his pylon, gg.
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Blizz maps are interesting, their lack of standard conditions means they can vary a lot which is fun for noncompetitive play.
That said, expand to your island and take his if you can. Spore up around the islands, and the only thing he'll send your way for the majority of the game is speed shuttles and small groups of scouts
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What i noticed playing some ai games the last year is that the level of the computer differs from one computer. I think is kind of logical, but still, i didn't notice that until last year.
My laptop with more ram was better than my other computer lol.
The AI seems to have several levels and it chooses the levels depending of the amount of actions it can handle.
Talking about that if you check the apm of your computer with some programs, my old computer had something like 80 of apm, and my laptop had 1600.
Also, i did... something... wrong? in my new desktop computer and changed the Ai level to insane. And now i can't beat the computer  . I'm talking about a C- wasn't able to beat the AI. I think the computer just starts with 2000 of mineral and build tons of units and takes nat and 3rd and beat your ass really fast. I think is possible but it's really really difficult. You ned to fool the ai somehow.
EDIT: About what the op is asking: I know you are playing against computers and it's not BW, but maybe this can interest you. The gem league is using challenger as a map. You can see some human vs humans games there and see what features of the map you can use to your advantage. You can see the vods and i think they even stream the games.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378364
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This was in Gem League!
I tested mods on this map.
Take islands or cheese.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y44VSMM.png)
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On May 31 2013 10:49 Trozz wrote:
This was in Gem League!
I tested mods on this map.
Take islands or cheese.
i c wat u did thar
Trozz is right though. If you take all the islands on the map and get some decent defenses (if not to kill a doomdrop, at least to delay the forces long enough for you to send some backup over), best case scenario if you ever play a human on this map he won't find your island expos and you can overwhelm him with units. Compooper knows where you are though, but luckily never sends more than a single dropship and some wraiths per expo until late late game where he'll start to yamato your spores to his heart's content.
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EPT
