On July 05 2012 05:56 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Test 9hatch/9pool/9ves/ol against 9pool/12pool/12hatch and see what the outcome is
That was my main ZvZ build when I played BW solely because it was a direct counter to the openings that could follow up.
That build is in the data as 9h and 10h (same thing but with extractor trick); it only shows up 4 times.
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say, but if what you are saying is that that build has a favorable matchup with all three of 9pool/12pool/12hatch then I think you are dead wrong.
Be more than happy to load up BW and show you first hand if you want to test it. You'd be shocked with the results
Bo11, every game I 12h and you do your build, play on some non-crazy 2 player map? My one question is how good you are - I'm not going to be shocked at the results if you are like B or something because I am max D+ and haven't played in ages. If you are better than me would you be willing to play against a different zerg who is closer to your skill level instead of me?
I haven't touched BW since 2008 and left off with B rank when I stopped playing.
I'm afraid all we will test then is much bw skills you lose in 4 years... :/
Glad you think that like a random elitist who isn't skilled or has little skill. Pretty sure if I've been playing SC2 it remains the same as long as I changed hotkeys over from what BW was. Only difference is the luck factor and the hard counter all-ins.
dude you misunderstood him >_> he's treating you with respect man
On July 07 2012 03:31 blueblimp wrote: Very nice post. I've considered doing this before, but it's so much work, so I'm impressed you went to the trouble.
This.
Go, Crunchums!
And to 9hat dude, if 9hat beat all those builds, pros would use it more. The end.
Wouldnt it be interesting to do this for more games?
How did you do it? Maybe people randomly send you in their zvz games, with their account and rank. Depending on what you are able to get from the replays.
It would be nice to get that kind of data from iccup for example, where they could prolly do that.
For know id just say the sample seems to be to small.
9 hat 9pool gas/ov was Mondragon's big build in ZvZ and ZvP for a while because it fares decently well against most Zerg openings (if i remember correctly, second hatch finishes at a timing to get a larva for 8 lings instead of 6 at pool completion, so with good micro and position you're ahead against several ZvZ openings). ZvP, it raped 2gate openings, but then those went out of style with forge-expand and BISUBUILD.
It gives you a good larva count, ling speed timing is close to that of a normal 9pool.
edit: As an added thought, you have to press your larva advantage hard and this means aggressive play, if they have a ramp or an easy to defend choke then this gets easier as you can't get a favorable position.
On July 07 2012 03:31 blueblimp wrote: Very nice post. I've considered doing this before, but it's so much work, so I'm impressed you went to the trouble.
This.
Go, Crunchums!
And to 9hat dude, if 9hat beat all those builds, pros would use it more. The end.
Pros can defend 12hat vs proxy 9/9gate using only drone micro :p They're not really an accurate comparison to someone playing iCCup at a regular level.
On July 25 2012 19:20 Benrath-ScT- wrote: Wouldnt it be interesting to do this for more games?
How did you do it? Maybe people randomly send you in their zvz games, with their account and rank. Depending on what you are able to get from the replays.
It would be nice to get that kind of data from iccup for example, where they could prolly do that.
For know id just say the sample seems to be to small.
All of the data entry is manual. There might be some way to automate things using replays and BW Chart, but then you wouldn't be able to use pro games (which imo are the only data worth looking at).
If you want I can explain how other people could add more data to what I've done. Perhaps it could even be set up collaboratively via liquipedia?
On July 26 2012 02:51 Bakuryu wrote: ..... please stop talking about 999 in zvz........ thx....... i agree with Turbovolver. and the example proxy 2 gate game on colo2.... -.-
The argument being that a progamer with progamer drone and ling control will often beat a risky build with an eco build as a result, I think you missed the point. I agree that the build is outdated, but you will win games with it on iCCup.
i think your missing the point of the thread. i never said anything about your statement that progamer can beat risky builds with an eco build, nor did i say anything about 999 being outdated, nor that u cant win with it in iccup. if im not wrong then this thread here is about how progamers win with their builds in zvz, not how any possible build can be played at iccup level. i could have also talked about how awesome hydra builds are, but that wouldnt do anything good to the data presented by Crunchums. that more or less explains my 1st and 2nd sentence from my previous post. 3rd sentence is about the fact that jaedong not only won that game, he simply demolished lucifer. (so im saying that i dont like that game as an example) im sry that GEMA is blocking the video so i have to remember what happened exactly ingame, but a proxy 2 gate on colo2 is more or less self own. because of the layout of colo2, the only way for your to win (if u are p) is to directly kill his main (or z completely does not scout it and goes for drone only) if u go for his natural hatch, he will place sunken in main and simply counter your main with lings. If u block his entrance, he has 2 hatches making lings and your contain gets nowhere because he still has 2 bases (main gets defended with a sunken again). so the only way to win, is to attack the main and kill the sunk before its too late. Problem is, he can "simply" place the sunk in a good location to drone drill your early zeal easily. iirc, in the game, the sunken didnt even get that many hits by the zeal, so for us mortals, it should be possible to survive it in the same way, or am i wrong?
EPT
