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On June 26 2012 07:14 Igeneous wrote:
I've done similar busts like this on ICCUP, and it was only on 2 base (with 3 hatchery production). It's very powerful, but it's only chink in the armor is scouting. One scout from a probe will let them put up enough cannons to defend against your hydras. Another tactic is just go DT/sair, with sair first you can kill off the first overlord if he scouts with it, and then you could get DT's out to massacre the hydras. No way to stop that, and then with more sairs he'll just supply block you and its GG. So either mass cannons or just dt/sair. Super easy. (Or you could try speedlot +1 it worked on me before, if you have alot of zealots)
DT/Sair is not as good as you say. If Z was planning this since the beginning, there's no way they would just send 1 overlord. A 2nd one should be on the way if not there already. Hydras should arrive before the first corsair can kill the overlord, and if there are no hydras at the time your corsair kills the overlord, it means the Zerg missed his timing. If you happen to open dt/sair and scouted too late, the best followup is to sneak dt out, and run into main (unless Z nat has no overlord) when Z tries to bust.
Scouting hydras with probe does not automatically mean easy win either. It really depends on the timing of the scout. If you scouted zerg when he has only built his first 3-4 hydras, zerg can easily switch to fake hydra bust and pump drones on 2 base, then take an expo and play normally. In fact, this would still outmacro the P if P over commits on cannons.
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On June 25 2012 12:15 brolaf wrote:
Well you can go the Stork build: go 2gate pressure, and wall your nat choke with thegates. allows zealots to quickly get to zerg base, and easy to wall with zealots if z goes ling heavy while you expand.
since when was forward 2gate the "Stork build"?
I feel like more than half the ppl in this thread have no fuckin clue what they're talking about -_-
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On June 27 2012 06:50 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 12:15 brolaf wrote:
Well you can go the Stork build: go 2gate pressure, and wall your nat choke with thegates. allows zealots to quickly get to zerg base, and easy to wall with zealots if z goes ling heavy while you expand. since when was forward 2gate the "Stork build"? I feel like more than half the ppl in this thread have no fuckin clue what they're talking about -_-
Post of the day
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United States10127 Posts
On June 27 2012 06:50 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 12:15 brolaf wrote:
Well you can go the Stork build: go 2gate pressure, and wall your nat choke with thegates. allows zealots to quickly get to zerg base, and easy to wall with zealots if z goes ling heavy while you expand. since when was forward 2gate the "Stork build"? I feel like more than half the ppl in this thread have no fuckin clue what they're talking about -_-
Yeah i guess that includes me :/
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On June 27 2012 06:50 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 12:15 brolaf wrote:
Well you can go the Stork build: go 2gate pressure, and wall your nat choke with thegates. allows zealots to quickly get to zerg base, and easy to wall with zealots if z goes ling heavy while you expand. since when was forward 2gate the "Stork build"? I feel like more than half the ppl in this thread have no fuckin clue what they're talking about -_-
Hes been using it the most the past year or two, hasnt he.
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10387 Posts
On June 28 2012 03:17 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 06:50 ArvickHero wrote:On June 25 2012 12:15 brolaf wrote:
Well you can go the Stork build: go 2gate pressure, and wall your nat choke with thegates. allows zealots to quickly get to zerg base, and easy to wall with zealots if z goes ling heavy while you expand. since when was forward 2gate the "Stork build"? I feel like more than half the ppl in this thread have no fuckin clue what they're talking about -_- Hes been using it the most the past year or two, hasnt he.
it's been around for a long time, predates Stork. It's like calling Forge-FE the "Bisu Build".
I feel a bit hesitant to offer my thoughts on the subject, since I have quit playing the game for quite a while now, but this is what I think ..
1-base builds:
It's not that they suck or anything, they are just inherently more unstable than Forge-FE due to the larger number of factors at play here. There's just a lot more opportunities to get fucked over when you 1-base lol.
BUUUUUUUUT, seeing as we're not all progamers here, I highly encourage Protosses to experiment with 1base play (preferably on Python) at the lower levels, because Zergs will often react very inefficiently and won't know how to abuse the advantages of their race. One should still stick with Forge-FE as the standard, but I think every Protoss should experiment with 1-base so that they have a deeper understanding of the match-up/race.
Personally, 10/12 gate netted a ridiculous amount of very easy wins for me because Zergs didn't know how to abuse speedlings, so I would be able to get a ridiculously fast expansion up. Often times they would expand very slowly, so I would play a bit more defensively by simcitying the front to defend against massive 3hatch ling allins (ran into quite a few of those), and compensate for slower tech by putting up cannons blindly in my mineral lines to account for Mutas (which they did like 90% of the time). Obviously against more skilled opponents this doesn't work nearly as well, but I ended my 1-base stint before I got to that point haha ...
I think ymir articulates pretty well the proper Zerg reactions to 1-base builds. It's a lot easier said than done, but its very difficult for the 1-baser when Zerg reacts properly.
As for Hydra busts, I will say first that I'm not entirely familiar with all the exact timings and possibilities, but I will say that it definitely isn't standard for good reason ...
Usually scouting a Hydra bust will not be too difficult if you have decent probe control/multitasking. If he denies your probe, you can always use your first zlot to help force a scout in. Once you've scouted it, putting up 4-5 cannons is usually enough, and the most reliable option is to do a quick tech to Templar tech for fast Storm. It's very important to use your first Corsair to keep scouting the Zerg so that you know what he's trying to do. Based off what he's doing, you'll adjust accordingly and will want to push out to at least vie for map control, or possibly even deal a killing blow to the Zerg.
Maybe I'll do some more research on the finer details of countering Hydra busts, but for the time being I think that rough outline is good enough.
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On June 28 2012 06:18 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 03:17 brolaf wrote:On June 27 2012 06:50 ArvickHero wrote:On June 25 2012 12:15 brolaf wrote:
Well you can go the Stork build: go 2gate pressure, and wall your nat choke with thegates. allows zealots to quickly get to zerg base, and easy to wall with zealots if z goes ling heavy while you expand. since when was forward 2gate the "Stork build"? I feel like more than half the ppl in this thread have no fuckin clue what they're talking about -_- Hes been using it the most the past year or two, hasnt he. it's been around for a long time, predates Stork. It's like calling Forge-FE the "Bisu Build". I feel a bit hesitant to offer my thoughts on the subject, since I have quit playing the game for quite a while now, but this is what I think .. 1-base builds: It's not that they suck or anything, they are just inherently more unstable than Forge-FE due to the larger number of factors at play here. There's just a lot more opportunities to get fucked over when you 1-base lol. BUUUUUUUUT, seeing as we're not all progamers here, I highly encourage Protosses to experiment with 1base play (preferably on Python) at the lower levels, because Zergs will often react very inefficiently and won't know how to abuse the advantages of their race. One should still stick with Forge-FE as the standard, but I think every Protoss should experiment with 1-base so that they have a deeper understanding of the match-up/race. Personally, 10/12 gate netted a ridiculous amount of very easy wins for me because Zergs didn't know how to abuse speedlings, so I would be able to get a ridiculously fast expansion up. Often times they would expand very slowly, so I would play a bit more defensively by simcitying the front to defend against massive 3hatch ling allins (ran into quite a few of those), and compensate for slower tech by putting up cannons blindly in my mineral lines to account for Mutas (which they did like 90% of the time). Obviously against more skilled opponents this doesn't work nearly as well, but I ended my 1-base stint before I got to that point haha ... I think ymir articulates pretty well the proper Zerg reactions to 1-base builds. It's a lot easier said than done, but its very difficult for the 1-baser when Zerg reacts properly. As for Hydra busts, I will say first that I'm not entirely familiar with all the exact timings and possibilities, but I will say that it definitely isn't standard for good reason ... Usually scouting a Hydra bust will not be too difficult if you have decent probe control/multitasking. If he denies your probe, you can always use your first zlot to help force a scout in. Once you've scouted it, putting up 4-5 cannons is usually enough, and the most reliable option is to do a quick tech to Templar tech for fast Storm. It's very important to use your first Corsair to keep scouting the Zerg so that you know what he's trying to do. Based off what he's doing, you'll adjust accordingly and will want to push out to at least vie for map control, or possibly even deal a killing blow to the Zerg. Maybe I'll do some more research on the finer details of countering Hydra busts, but for the time being I think that rough outline is good enough.
1 Base play is exactly what I have been doing to try and get different scenarios out of my vZ. Rushing +1 archons is pretty fun. But on topic, it pretty much proves you really can't get past the advantages of forge first. Especially since +1 atk is so huge. As long as the protoss can put down the right number of cannons at the right time, the advantage of the expansion can be maximized.
Another strategy. Forge expanding to make a wall at the Nat. Then going reaver and skipping corsairs. You can get obs early for scouting and have the option for shuttle harassment. The reaver is now used for defense at the lack of cannons, but you also will have more gates/zlots where otherwise minerals would be wasted on static defense. Forge expand into reaver seems like it could go a long way if used right. Only drawback I see is how to deal with mutas.
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On June 28 2012 03:17 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 06:50 ArvickHero wrote:On June 25 2012 12:15 brolaf wrote:
Well you can go the Stork build: go 2gate pressure, and wall your nat choke with thegates. allows zealots to quickly get to zerg base, and easy to wall with zealots if z goes ling heavy while you expand. since when was forward 2gate the "Stork build"? I feel like more than half the ppl in this thread have no fuckin clue what they're talking about -_- Hes been using it the most the past year or two, hasnt he.
Yes, and 1raxCC vs P is Leta's build.
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On June 25 2012 12:20 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 08:49 ymir233 wrote:
If you look at the MBCGame BNet Returns with Shine FPVOD (and probably some others), there are plenty of people who try to cheese like that. 2gate can easily be held off with mutas, but hydra bust off 3hatch/4hatch off 2/3 base (preferably 2, then 4th hatch is 3rd base) is the classic response to 1basing...you just have so many hydras, if they really want to do a slow weird speedlot timing or some archon/zeal/goon timing you can just put down 1/2 sunks + evo and you're done...and as seen in the vod, you can pressure their ramp/base pretty hard with hydras until they get a stupid amt of goons, in which case you should have a stupid amt of hydras. The expansion transition also fails pretty miserably because with just zealots it's over, and if you're trying to cut zeals and put up cannons (again seen in the Shine VOD), you just shove your hydras into their choke and it's over (that or make a few lurkers if you're paranoid of zeal surround).
2gate expansion loses to 3hatch delayed gas + more lings into mutas. Savior proved that time and time again. That was before the modern neo-bisu variation though. With the modern +1 sairs a muta heavy midgame doesnt work nearly as well.
I've played enough PvZ transitions to know that 1 corsair, another corsair being barely made/barely out, 1 cannon, 2 cannons desperately trying to complete, and +1 air weapons nowhere near completed at your main does little to prevent 9 mutas from hold positioning at your base.
And if you've made cannons beforehand at your main like a good Protoss, well, I feel sorry for your mutaling-infested natural.
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On June 29 2012 00:39 ymir233 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 12:20 brolaf wrote:On June 23 2012 08:49 ymir233 wrote:
If you look at the MBCGame BNet Returns with Shine FPVOD (and probably some others), there are plenty of people who try to cheese like that. 2gate can easily be held off with mutas, but hydra bust off 3hatch/4hatch off 2/3 base (preferably 2, then 4th hatch is 3rd base) is the classic response to 1basing...you just have so many hydras, if they really want to do a slow weird speedlot timing or some archon/zeal/goon timing you can just put down 1/2 sunks + evo and you're done...and as seen in the vod, you can pressure their ramp/base pretty hard with hydras until they get a stupid amt of goons, in which case you should have a stupid amt of hydras. The expansion transition also fails pretty miserably because with just zealots it's over, and if you're trying to cut zeals and put up cannons (again seen in the Shine VOD), you just shove your hydras into their choke and it's over (that or make a few lurkers if you're paranoid of zeal surround).
2gate expansion loses to 3hatch delayed gas + more lings into mutas. Savior proved that time and time again. That was before the modern neo-bisu variation though. With the modern +1 sairs a muta heavy midgame doesnt work nearly as well. I've played enough PvZ transitions to know that 1 corsair, another corsair being barely made/barely out, 1 cannon, 2 cannons desperately trying to complete, and +1 air weapons nowhere near completed at your main does little to prevent 9 mutas from hold positioning at your base. And if you've made cannons beforehand at your main like a good Protoss, well, I feel sorry for your mutaling-infested natural. if you look at zero vs stork, stork had no problem handling mass mutas after using 2gate
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1gate fe opening easily kills the 3hatch hydra. very easily. especially on fs.
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actually its like the perfect PvZ build for fighting spirit, every P should learn it. learn the proper cannon and other building placements and make zerg players go home and cry (only if you are playing fs tho)
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On June 29 2012 08:48 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 00:39 ymir233 wrote:On June 25 2012 12:20 brolaf wrote:On June 23 2012 08:49 ymir233 wrote:
If you look at the MBCGame BNet Returns with Shine FPVOD (and probably some others), there are plenty of people who try to cheese like that. 2gate can easily be held off with mutas, but hydra bust off 3hatch/4hatch off 2/3 base (preferably 2, then 4th hatch is 3rd base) is the classic response to 1basing...you just have so many hydras, if they really want to do a slow weird speedlot timing or some archon/zeal/goon timing you can just put down 1/2 sunks + evo and you're done...and as seen in the vod, you can pressure their ramp/base pretty hard with hydras until they get a stupid amt of goons, in which case you should have a stupid amt of hydras. The expansion transition also fails pretty miserably because with just zealots it's over, and if you're trying to cut zeals and put up cannons (again seen in the Shine VOD), you just shove your hydras into their choke and it's over (that or make a few lurkers if you're paranoid of zeal surround).
2gate expansion loses to 3hatch delayed gas + more lings into mutas. Savior proved that time and time again. That was before the modern neo-bisu variation though. With the modern +1 sairs a muta heavy midgame doesnt work nearly as well. I've played enough PvZ transitions to know that 1 corsair, another corsair being barely made/barely out, 1 cannon, 2 cannons desperately trying to complete, and +1 air weapons nowhere near completed at your main does little to prevent 9 mutas from hold positioning at your base. And if you've made cannons beforehand at your main like a good Protoss, well, I feel sorry for your mutaling-infested natural. if you look at zero vs stork, stork had no problem handling mass mutas after using 2gate
That's true, but then again he forced ZerO into a very unstable econ 2base/2hatch econ into 3rd hatch/base econ from the 2gate pressure, so whatever Stork did was much more effective and earlier than what ZerO could have done. I still think the nat choke cannon could have been killed though 
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it also works on La Mancha, and Bloody Ridge
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EPT
