We find ourselves watching Protoss forge fast expand almost every game versus Zerg. We know zerg has a variety of openings to apply pressure against protoss. But is the following scenarion truly impossible:
Can protoss expand with out going forge first and actually survive against Zerg? Assuming Zerg goes for a hydra bust variation of some sort.
If yes, then how come we don't see pros start thinking out of the box and playing in that style. But when thinking about the Hydra bust, it's pure power is unstoppable. When thinking about a 3hatch muta, 5 hatch hydra bust I weep to think forge first is the only way. And finally a lurker build added into this mix will kill of the protoss with out the static detection as observers come after stargate.
Protoss opening vZ is in a crysis of creativity. Let's discover what kind of variants can help us achieve success while dealing with the Hydra bust strategies.
more of my thoughts: I'd really like to start seeing two gate expand being used more effectively. I think that is a style that can apply pressure to Zerg and allow a second base to come up.
It's just that non-forge expansions are weak. The whole point of FE is to get fast corsairs after exping, skipping the rushes that actually help the zerg catch up with toss eco and tech...
I still find that the LML build is very viable and its an underrated build order. seriously there's really no lost tech in the build, just a later natural defense. i still have an unbelievable record PvZ with LML, something like 15-2.
I think the biggest problem about Protoss players is that they just don't respect the hydra bust. They know it's coming but they don't freaking react. They'll sit there with their 2 cannons and not make any until the last second when it's too late. SeRapH and I talked about it. It's so dumb. Do you really need that extra 450 minerals in which you can't build 3 extra cannons???
The easiest solution is to build 2 Extra cannons after you move out with your Corsair. If you can see Spire, then cancel them. If you see the Den, then keep them.
Or if your probe stayed long enough to see the infrastructure, skip Corsairs and go for 4 Gates Pressure into Templars. 4 Gates Zealots will reach a bigger critical mass then Hydralisk.
Another option is probably the most effective one but the most APM taxing one is to go Sair-Reaver play. The Zerg might transition into Lurkers which the tech is already there at your disposal.
What Protoss players should know that Zergs might go fake Hydralisk bust build and spend the money for speed/range upgrade on Spire so that when Protoss players finally decided to break the push with Storm, Mutalisks will pops up and snipe those HTs so it is important to place Corsairs at cliffs beside their base so you can deal damage to them. Or you may wait for an extra moment for some sick Maelstroms.
Another path the Zerg may go is 3 Hatch Hydra into Lurkers while getting Spires only for Scourges so to put on a total contain on the Protoss. Get OBS once spotted the Egg. Afterward immediately get a Shuttle with Hts to slow down the Zerg's economy and to capitalize on the momentarily lack of Scourge.
On June 23 2012 05:35 FlaShFTW wrote: I still find that the LML build is very viable and its an underrated build order. seriously there's really no lost tech in the build, just a later natural defense. i still have an unbelievable record PvZ with LML, something like 15-2.
I think the biggest problem about Protoss players is that they just don't respect the hydra bust. They know it's coming but they don't freaking react. They'll sit there with their 2 cannons and not make any until the last second when it's too late. SeRapH and I talked about it. It's so dumb. Do you really need that extra 450 minerals in which you can't build 3 extra cannons???
Your tech/expo/everything is delayed and you dont have simcity with this BO, if you want to do the LML build then just use your first buildings @ the nat so you can skip that extra pylon and will have some simcity.
In regards to blind hydra bust D, most higher level protoss add a blind cannon when they warp in their SGate so they have that extra few seconds to plop up further cannons if required. Also, there are MANY MANY builds that protoss do in ladder so you should watch eagle or other high level protoss streams because they dont really forge expo every game, they do a lot of 9-9 gates @ the natural and such
If you look at the MBCGame BNet Returns with Shine FPVOD (and probably some others), there are plenty of people who try to cheese like that. 2gate can easily be held off with mutas, but hydra bust off 3hatch/4hatch off 2/3 base (preferably 2, then 4th hatch is 3rd base) is the classic response to 1basing...you just have so many hydras, if they really want to do a slow weird speedlot timing or some archon/zeal/goon timing you can just put down 1/2 sunks + evo and you're done...and as seen in the vod, you can pressure their ramp/base pretty hard with hydras until they get a stupid amt of goons, in which case you should have a stupid amt of hydras. The expansion transition also fails pretty miserably because with just zealots it's over, and if you're trying to cut zeals and put up cannons (again seen in the Shine VOD), you just shove your hydras into their choke and it's over (that or make a few lurkers if you're paranoid of zeal surround).
2gate expansion loses to 3hatch delayed gas + more lings into mutas. Savior proved that time and time again.
You'd really have to catch your opponent with the pants down completely for a 2-gate to work. Pretty much comprises of enemy not scouting and reacting quick enough to plant a few sunkens down.
The normal transition from 2-gate pressure into expo is double stargate because the zerg will attempt to go mutas to pin you into your base. Cannons in BW are pretty weak and cost-inefficient against mutas so you need the corsairs to properly counter them.
In the end, it's all about how well you trade your zealots with the zerg. As a protoss, you need to make the zerg fight at bare minimal units (thus suffers higher casualties). I'm only a D level toss but I think there should be some decision making flowchart as to when to press on or back off and expand
If you can successfully snipe some Ovies with your corsairs and set back the zerg production long enough then yes. Or, if you go Gateway first, then forge and CybCo, bypass any upgrades to throw down a cannon or two on your second nexus, and then get up your robo and support bay with reaver support, I think you can have a reaver by the time the bust comes.
Or, proxy Nexus then forge. Or just a 12nex on a four player map into sair-reaver might be possible.
On June 23 2012 05:35 FlaShFTW wrote: I still find that the LML build is very viable and its an underrated build order. seriously there's really no lost tech in the build, just a later natural defense. i still have an unbelievable record PvZ with LML, something like 15-2.
I think the biggest problem about Protoss players is that they just don't respect the hydra bust. They know it's coming but they don't freaking react. They'll sit there with their 2 cannons and not make any until the last second when it's too late. SeRapH and I talked about it. It's so dumb. Do you really need that extra 450 minerals in which you can't build 3 extra cannons???
If the player is faking the Hydralisk bust and you add your two or three extra Cannons (Up to 4 Cannons) prematurely and your opponent does a fake Hydralisk bust, you can miss your speed Zealot timing window presuming you opened +1 Zealots.
On June 23 2012 05:35 FlaShFTW wrote: I still find that the LML build is very viable and its an underrated build order. seriously there's really no lost tech in the build, just a later natural defense. i still have an unbelievable record PvZ with LML, something like 15-2.
I think the biggest problem about Protoss players is that they just don't respect the hydra bust. They know it's coming but they don't freaking react. They'll sit there with their 2 cannons and not make any until the last second when it's too late. SeRapH and I talked about it. It's so dumb. Do you really need that extra 450 minerals in which you can't build 3 extra cannons???
If the player is faking the Hydralisk bust and you add your two or three extra Cannons (Up to 4 Cannons) prematurely and your opponent does a fake Hydralisk bust, you can miss your speed Zealot timing window presuming you opened +1 Zealots.
Not to mention that if your opponent only makes 4 cannons you can start going on the fake hydra bust route, start up lair, make 6 additional hydras and do a second hydra bust timing with 4-6 lings + 12 hydras.
On June 23 2012 05:35 FlaShFTW wrote: I still find that the LML build is very viable and its an underrated build order. seriously there's really no lost tech in the build, just a later natural defense. i still have an unbelievable record PvZ with LML, something like 15-2.
I think the biggest problem about Protoss players is that they just don't respect the hydra bust. They know it's coming but they don't freaking react. They'll sit there with their 2 cannons and not make any until the last second when it's too late. SeRapH and I talked about it. It's so dumb. Do you really need that extra 450 minerals in which you can't build 3 extra cannons???
Your tech/expo/everything is delayed and you dont have simcity with this BO, if you want to do the LML build then just use your first buildings @ the nat so you can skip that extra pylon and will have some simcity.
In regards to blind hydra bust D, most higher level protoss add a blind cannon when they warp in their SGate so they have that extra few seconds to plop up further cannons if required. Also, there are MANY MANY builds that protoss do in ladder so you should watch eagle or other high level protoss streams because they dont really forge expo every game, they do a lot of 9-9 gates @ the natural and such
You build an extra gate at ur nat and instead of forge you build your core there. ur tech isnt relaly that far behind.
On June 23 2012 05:35 FlaShFTW wrote: I still find that the LML build is very viable and its an underrated build order. seriously there's really no lost tech in the build, just a later natural defense. i still have an unbelievable record PvZ with LML, something like 15-2.
I think the biggest problem about Protoss players is that they just don't respect the hydra bust. They know it's coming but they don't freaking react. They'll sit there with their 2 cannons and not make any until the last second when it's too late. SeRapH and I talked about it. It's so dumb. Do you really need that extra 450 minerals in which you can't build 3 extra cannons???
Your tech/expo/everything is delayed and you dont have simcity with this BO, if you want to do the LML build then just use your first buildings @ the nat so you can skip that extra pylon and will have some simcity.
In regards to blind hydra bust D, most higher level protoss add a blind cannon when they warp in their SGate so they have that extra few seconds to plop up further cannons if required. Also, there are MANY MANY builds that protoss do in ladder so you should watch eagle or other high level protoss streams because they dont really forge expo every game, they do a lot of 9-9 gates @ the natural and such
You build an extra gate at ur nat and instead of forge you build your core there. ur tech isnt relaly that far behind.
Well you can always do this:
It does show the simcity with the core and gateway. Only really works on a map with long rush distance like Benzene, though.
On June 23 2012 05:35 FlaShFTW wrote: I still find that the LML build is very viable and its an underrated build order. seriously there's really no lost tech in the build, just a later natural defense. i still have an unbelievable record PvZ with LML, something like 15-2.
I think the biggest problem about Protoss players is that they just don't respect the hydra bust. They know it's coming but they don't freaking react. They'll sit there with their 2 cannons and not make any until the last second when it's too late. SeRapH and I talked about it. It's so dumb. Do you really need that extra 450 minerals in which you can't build 3 extra cannons???
Your tech/expo/everything is delayed and you dont have simcity with this BO, if you want to do the LML build then just use your first buildings @ the nat so you can skip that extra pylon and will have some simcity.
In regards to blind hydra bust D, most higher level protoss add a blind cannon when they warp in their SGate so they have that extra few seconds to plop up further cannons if required. Also, there are MANY MANY builds that protoss do in ladder so you should watch eagle or other high level protoss streams because they dont really forge expo every game, they do a lot of 9-9 gates @ the natural and such
You build an extra gate at ur nat and instead of forge you build your core there. ur tech isnt relaly that far behind.
I agree with draw that the "LML" build achieves the same purpose as the 1gate FE build popular among progamers, except that its worse because LML always makes a forge before nexus unnecessarily, and doesnt wall in, so if the zerg goes 12hatch he is behind, and if the zerg masses lings he will probably die. If you build an extra gateway at the natural to wallin, thats altering your build into one that uses a fast 2nd gateway, severely limiting your options. Using the core as part of the wallin is also a disadvantage, because it is more important than a forge (and more expensive to rebuild) because you need it to get 1+ air or dragoon range, both which take a long time to upgrade, so if the zerg opens hydra or lurker and kills the forge, he fucks up your build way more than killing the forge would.
In response to your 2nd paragraph, protoss players do react to the hydra build, but in order to do so they need to see the hydra den put down, or see hydras leave the base, which requires the probe being around zergs main base for a while. Progamers are pretty good at denying probe scouting with their first 6-8lings, so if the probe dies or leaves the main base prematurely, toss is in the dark until sair tech. The hydra bust comes at the same time that the sair flies across the map, leaving the protoss about 15seconds to get up cannons that take 30seconds to build.
Yes you do need the extra minerals for stuff other than cannons, every mineral is important and spending 450 on something that doesnt do anything for you in the first 5-6 minutes of the game is suicide for any good player.
The LML build is not a counter to hydra busts in any way, in fact I would say that it is weaker than a standard forge FE or 1gate FE, because the cannons are exposed. With there being a wall in place, hydras either have to kill off a building or force themselves against said building to pick off the 1-2 cannons, allowing zealots/probes more shots on them, and given the right building placement can even outrange rangeless hydras. Zerg has to choose between going speed first and range first, speed first giving them a better chance of taking the protoss unawares before he can throw down extra cannons, while range first allows them to pick off cannons behind a good simcity. So a good wall that outranges speed-but-not-range upgraded hydras can literally be the difference between getting the extra cannons up and winning, or losing immediately at that crucial timing.
On June 23 2012 05:35 FlaShFTW wrote: I still find that the LML build is very viable and its an underrated build order. seriously there's really no lost tech in the build, just a later natural defense. i still have an unbelievable record PvZ with LML, something like 15-2.
I think the biggest problem about Protoss players is that they just don't respect the hydra bust. They know it's coming but they don't freaking react. They'll sit there with their 2 cannons and not make any until the last second when it's too late. SeRapH and I talked about it. It's so dumb. Do you really need that extra 450 minerals in which you can't build 3 extra cannons???
Your tech/expo/everything is delayed and you dont have simcity with this BO, if you want to do the LML build then just use your first buildings @ the nat so you can skip that extra pylon and will have some simcity.
In regards to blind hydra bust D, most higher level protoss add a blind cannon when they warp in their SGate so they have that extra few seconds to plop up further cannons if required. Also, there are MANY MANY builds that protoss do in ladder so you should watch eagle or other high level protoss streams because they dont really forge expo every game, they do a lot of 9-9 gates @ the natural and such
You build an extra gate at ur nat and instead of forge you build your core there. ur tech isnt relaly that far behind.
I agree with draw that the "LML" build achieves the same purpose as the 1gate FE build popular among progamers, except that its worse because LML always makes a forge before nexus unnecessarily, and doesnt wall in, so if the zerg goes 12hatch he is behind, and if the zerg masses lings he will probably die. If you build an extra gateway at the natural to wallin, thats altering your build into one that uses a fast 2nd gateway, severely limiting your options. Using the core as part of the wallin is also a disadvantage, because it is more important than a forge (and more expensive to rebuild) because you need it to get 1+ air or dragoon range, both which take a long time to upgrade, so if the zerg opens hydra or lurker and kills the forge, he fucks up your build way more than killing the forge would.
In response to your 2nd paragraph, protoss players do react to the hydra build, but in order to do so they need to see the hydra den put down, or see hydras leave the base, which requires the probe being around zergs main base for a while. Progamers are pretty good at denying probe scouting with their first 6-8lings, so if the probe dies or leaves the main base prematurely, toss is in the dark until sair tech. The hydra bust comes at the same time that the sair flies across the map, leaving the protoss about 15seconds to get up cannons that take 30seconds to build.
Yes you do need the extra minerals for stuff other than cannons, every mineral is important and spending 450 on something that doesnt do anything for you in the first 5-6 minutes of the game is suicide for any good player.
The LML build is not a counter to hydra busts in any way, in fact I would say that it is weaker than a standard forge FE or 1gate FE, because the cannons are exposed. With there being a wall in place, hydras either have to kill off a building or force themselves against said building to pick off the 1-2 cannons, allowing zealots/probes more shots on them, and given the right building placement can even outrange rangeless hydras. Zerg has to choose between going speed first and range first, speed first giving them a better chance of taking the protoss unawares before he can throw down extra cannons, while range first allows them to pick off cannons behind a good simcity. So a good wall that outranges speed-but-not-range upgraded hydras can literally be the difference between getting the extra cannons up and winning, or losing immediately at that crucial timing.
hmm i mean i guess? like if i remember the LML post, with this build, you catch up economically because you don't have that 8 probe scout and instead have it mining for a much longer period of time. The LML build at sair tech had more econ than the FFE. I mean I guess. I've had a ton of success with LML... I guess it only really works at low level play.
Actual progamers like Sky and Eagle do a much better version with nex before forge when they spawn top left/bott right on FS. (which is another problem with what LML does since he does his bad version when you can just gate in nat and get a really nice 1 hex wall later)
Anyways, going "1 base" doesn't prevent you from being hydra busted so this thread is pretty silly.
On June 24 2012 14:56 Harem wrote: LML build is awful anyways.
Actual progamers like Sky and Eagle do a much better version with nex before forge when they spawn top left/bott right on FS. (which is another problem with what LML does since he does his bad version when you can just gate in nat and get a really nice 1 hex wall later)
Anyways, going "1 base" doesn't prevent you from being hydra busted so this thread is pretty silly.
i mean i guess you end up in the same position... idk how to not get busted then :/ i guess you have to take quick map control as protoss?
Well you can go the Stork build: go 2gate pressure, and wall your nat choke with thegates. allows zealots to quickly get to zerg base, and easy to wall with zealots if z goes ling heavy while you expand.
On June 23 2012 08:49 ymir233 wrote: If you look at the MBCGame BNet Returns with Shine FPVOD (and probably some others), there are plenty of people who try to cheese like that. 2gate can easily be held off with mutas, but hydra bust off 3hatch/4hatch off 2/3 base (preferably 2, then 4th hatch is 3rd base) is the classic response to 1basing...you just have so many hydras, if they really want to do a slow weird speedlot timing or some archon/zeal/goon timing you can just put down 1/2 sunks + evo and you're done...and as seen in the vod, you can pressure their ramp/base pretty hard with hydras until they get a stupid amt of goons, in which case you should have a stupid amt of hydras. The expansion transition also fails pretty miserably because with just zealots it's over, and if you're trying to cut zeals and put up cannons (again seen in the Shine VOD), you just shove your hydras into their choke and it's over (that or make a few lurkers if you're paranoid of zeal surround).
2gate expansion loses to 3hatch delayed gas + more lings into mutas. Savior proved that time and time again.
That was before the modern neo-bisu variation though. With the modern +1 sairs a muta heavy midgame doesnt work nearly as well.
Sometimes I think that adding a couples of units would be awesome into the game The sentry was suppost to help protoss in this way But there are not many ways people can think outside the box with the avaibles option in the early game...
I've done similar busts like this on ICCUP, and it was only on 2 base (with 3 hatchery production). It's very powerful, but it's only chink in the armor is scouting. One scout from a probe will let them put up enough cannons to defend against your hydras. Another tactic is just go DT/sair, with sair first you can kill off the first overlord if he scouts with it, and then you could get DT's out to massacre the hydras. No way to stop that, and then with more sairs he'll just supply block you and its GG. So either mass cannons or just dt/sair. Super easy. (Or you could try speedlot +1 it worked on me before, if you have alot of zealots)
EPT
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