Hihi due to Gatsu giving his super duper tip (THANK YOU!!!!!!!! :D) about these magical boxes in the "Did you know" thread, I decided to do some research so that I can give concrete ways of how to spread your spells, like storm and mines. Alot of the time we get frustrated with 12 vults clumping together and laying only 1 mine, or 3 storms stacking onto each other. Here's what to do (if you don't care about the theory skip to the applications bit):
Theory
There are two boxes relevant to this: 1. A box of fixed size - the magic box 2. A box or rectangle that "hugs" your units as closely as possible
Gatsu's tip is that you need to keep all the units you are selecting in your group to be close enough so that they fit within the first fixed-sized box. If you do so, your units will stay in formation, move in formation, and cast spells in formation.
The first imaginary box is the more important one because it defines if your units will behave in that special way. The second box lets you know where you can place a command. If you place a command outside of the second box, your units behave in specially, but if you place a command inside of the second box, you units will clump together.
So basically, the idea is to ensure your selected units within the first box, and also that any commands you issue are beyond the second box defined by your units if you want them to behave in this special way.
[EDIT: As pointed out correctly by Locked there is a fixed box size for all ground units, and one for all air units]
To find out the sizes, I figured that the lenght of the sides of the square must equal the maximum distance that 2 units in a line perpendicular the the horizontal such that these units will stay in formation. To test the staying in formation a move command or spell can be used.
Here's a few units showing the box size:
The sides of the boxes are around these in pixels: Ground units: 195 [EDIT: Revised to be 195 from more tests] Air units: 255
So what do all these boxes mean? Well if you keep your units within those sized boxes, then you'll be able to stay formation and cast spreaded spells
Example applications
-Mine laying in TvP
If you wanted to do what I did in this picture, you'd have to make the 12 vults "hug" each other very tightly before they would fit into the box, which is obviously a time waster in a real game. This is also why if you absently-mindedly issue a mine command with 12 vults, you're like to have vults just move to the area you wanted to mine but then sit there and stare at you dumb-founded.
The key idea behind vult mine laying is to select 3-4 vults to use the mine command, rather than using the mine command for all 12 vults. 3-4 vults are far more likely to be in the megical box than all 12, which is why selecting the vults in groups of 3-4 to mine is far more effective.
Note that you also want to select 3-4 vults that are close together obviously, and not ones furthest apart in your group. The way to mimic what is seen in the picture in a real game practically is to deal with something like 4 groups of 3 vults each, and issue a mine command for each group.
If you watch carefully in VODs, you'll see this in action (intentionally or not) as a player splits up all his vults into smaller groups, then these individual groups move in formation (because they're within the box) and lay their mines without troubles. When it is done fast it nearly looks like all the vults are laying mines at once. It all looks very slick when you get it working right
-Keeping science vessels spread out in TvZ
Note that when science vessels are overlapping, they tend to push each other apart and slowly get further away from each other, so in this picture as the vessels are nearly beyond the box, you should move them towards a slightly tighter group (by right clicking in the middle then pressing stop or move somewhere else straight after), and you should do this periodically whenever you see the vessels getting too far apart. So it's basically keeping the vessels far apart enough for easy selection (they'll drift apart anyway if they're too close and overlapping) but not too far to exceed the box.
-Spread storming with P
Notice in the spread storming the storms are spread out because all 4 templars are within the size of the 195 by 195 pixel box. This is a less useful application because it is generally more efficient to cast storms manually one by one. If you really don't have time in game then you might want to select like a group of 4 or so templars that look sorta close together and use a single storm command for them.
While trying these experiments out, I also found that if you have a speed shuttle or normal shuttle dropping a nat or main mineral line with 2 temps, the 2 templars dropped are well within the area of the box, so clicking approximately in the middle of the mineral field will give a good spreaded double simultaneous storm so it will own the scvs (where the cursor is placed in the image is where you would click for aiming your storm to give that effect):
You may however want to cast individual storms and cast them straight away and not wait for both templars to be dropped, it's up to you.
-Muta micro with Z Sometimes you want your units to clump, and magical boxes can explain why you hotkey an overlord or larva or trapped ling with your 11 mutas to clump them. Because your mutas are so far away from your last unit that you have in your selection, your selection is constantly larger than the 255 by 255 air box, and hence every move command means your units will clump, which is usually good for muta harass. If for example you wanted them to be spread out (maybe fighting corsairs, but I dunno anything about pvz), just spread them out but not too far, and they will stay in that spread out formation as long as they don't drift too far apart.
-Purposely clumping with other units Other units you may want to clump together are corsairs in PvZ. Same idea holds. You just need a unit that is far away enough (ie in your base will do) and can't get close to your corsairs, so its' stuck there. An example I saw Nony use in a PvZ was to trap a probe against minerals using a pylon, and select that probe with the rest of his corsairs.
One thing to note is that if you're gonna use a worker as your trapped unit, make sure you're aware of the fact that if you use another unit to trap your worker, and you right click onto a mineral patch somewhere on the map, your worker will slide through the unit that's blocking it and your thing will be broken. Nony's pylon is good because the probe can't move out of that spot even if a command was given to move onto minerals.
-Marine/medic micro in TvZ Magic boxes can't be used in a simple manner with mm. The whole idea is to have your units spread out as much as possible. But having them so spread out immediately places them beyond the confines of the magic box, and so any move or attack command clumps them together. So either you go with the extreme and have your units in an arc as big as possible, or have them close enough that they fit into the magic box. The danger comes in arranging your units so that they are somewhere between these two cases. You won't get the benefits of a big wide arc, and you won't get the benefits of moving in formation with the magic box.
One possibility of thinking about it is that when you don't need mobility but a good spread, then form the biggest and widest arc you can. This often occurs when you are containing the zerg at his natural and he's trying to push out with lurkers. When you need good mobility, keep your units fairly close so they fit within the magic box (but not really close together obviously). An example of this is when you are controlling units dropped from a dropship and you need to run around killing stuff. The lower number of units also helps you keep within the magic box.
Other stuff
Notice how the 2 templars are well beyond the confines of the 195 by 195 box as they are too far apart, so the storm clumps. Furthermore, if you do a move command on a unit or some other command like a spell or ability on a unit rather than an area of ground or air, it will clump up rather than spread.
[EDIT] If the units are outside the confines of the box, it seems that using the minimap for the command does not help, and the spell or ability still clumps. I'm not sure where this notion comes from, but I believe its untrue. A possible reason is that any command that is issued by you but is focused on an enemy unit, for example 4 storms targeted on 1 unit, will cause the units who are given that command to clump. Using the minimap bypasses this because on the minimap you cant target 1 unit, however it does not ensure your units are within the box and as a result they might still clump up.
Also remember that if a command lands on a unit or building then it will clump no matter what, so make sure you give your command onto a patch of ground.
This "magical box" concept is not center of gravity technique nor does it have any relation to that technique (apart from the similarity in appearance between the spreaded storms and spreaded units which leads many people to link these 2 ideas together, when in reality they are not linked). Furthermore, many people will say to get your storms spread out like in the picture, just use the "center of gravity". This doesn't even make sense: what is the center of gravity in relation to 2 templars? The midpoint of the line that connects them? Storm at that point and kill your own templars? This concept of magical boxes ensures that the storm is always spread (if you do it correctly of course) without any "mumbo-jumbo". [/EDIT]
And a nice video made by culture:
Hoped that helped ^^ And again big thanks to Gatsu for this tip.
Oh yeah it seems ground unit squares are alot smaller, shoulda picked up on that. I guess in programing their fast enough to do individual storms so its more accurate.
Hmm maybe I'm so inaccurate its actually the same for all air units, I'll line some units up and find out.
Omg I'm so dumb ^^ Looks like you're right and there are 2 boxes, 1 for ground and 1 for air. The box for air is around 255, and the one for ground is about 200. I need to edit my post alot then T_T
WHenever you select a group of the same units like vulturs, there's a predetermined box around them of 200 by 200 pixels. Keep these units within the box and they will scatter their spells or abilities and move in formation.
who wants to be the one to find that extremely old thread that explains the real nature of this? think it was 2 years ago..and there's no magic box, it's just the center of the units..and yes, minimap clicking makes -any- and all units cast spells in their respective formation. This was also found out about 10 years ago with corsairs. And even before the mini map clicking, casting spells in the center was found out about 50969 years ago..because when I was a newb, I was playing some UMS called Tempar Defense, where you storm things that come down..and I was using the center click to cast two at the same time, and some guy said "hey, how do you do korean storming?" so koreans must have been doing it even longer
oO I don't get how the center of gravity drop technique would be related to this. And also, Gatsu makes it easier for noobs like me to do the spreading of spells and mining alot easier and mroe effective, so i think this topic is benefecial.
But look at the mineral scattered storm. His click is SO not center of gravity but the storm split. I noticed in-consistencies in my game like this and it ALWAYS sucks when like 2 out of 4 vital storms stack and some bullshit happens like that ya know?
This is so helpful! I was struggling with this for a long time now, since there is a similar feature in the old Command and Conqueror. You could \"freeze\" formations of units and that way they would regroup as you had them originally placed. They did this even after they had to temporarily \"ungroup\" walking across a narrow bridge or something. In SC/BW they didn't seem to have that feature, even though sometimes I noticed units did maintain formation when I send for example a group of corsairs across the map. I could never figure out how to keep them like that intentionally, so this is great information.
This knowledge alone will make up for 100 APM pts when playing someone who micros every spell one by one...
in the center of gravity drops thread they said how the same thing applies to high templar storms... which is the same technique showed here, interpretted differently. this IS center of gravity in a different form
On November 18 2005 12:35 greatmeh wrote: even if its old news its still news to me, and it seems this would be extremely effective for storm, vmines and swarm, so why dont progamers use it?
maybe because getting the exact positions isnt worth the time T_T
Ive seen progamers use it...like in that cool rA vs some zerg game on requim...he dropped 3 temps and stormed all over the place, killing hydras
On November 18 2005 14:20 mitsy wrote: in the center of gravity drops thread they said how the same thing applies to high templar storms... which is the same technique showed here, interpretted differently. this IS center of gravity in a different form
How does the center of gravity thingy explain that when the templars are apart by a certain distance, trying to storm will make the storms stacked, while when you're in this predictable boudnary of the imaginary box that they storm in formation?
With this you can now make sure that you're gonna do a spread out storm, or get alot of mines layed down, which I think is really helpful ^^
On November 18 2005 17:25 QuietIdiot wrote: This works with unit drops too right? That explains how Yellow drops his units from his overlords while they were moving..most impressive!
No for that if you have say 5 dropships selected, you must click unload at the center of gravity of your group of dropships, it is something quite different (or the unload-onto-self way).
This is different cause you can place your command anywhere outside the box, as long as all your units are within your box.
wouldnt it be that the size of the "imaginary box" is dependent on the spells range? 1) say you had two templars spread apart a little more than double the range of storm, then when you cast storm directly halfway in between them they would both have to move to storm the location and thus the storm would stack.
2) if you had two templars spread from each other within the length of two storms they would both storm the same location (in between them) but not in formation.
3) if you had two templars standing together within the range of storm and told them to storm a location they can both reach I think thats when it wil have the spread effect.
ill test this out anyway but after thinking about it im pretty sure this is how it would be
also air units in most cases have a longer spell casting range than ground units, so that would explain the bigger box size your talking about. It would be good to know the stats anyway, maybe Excalibur_z could tell us?
wouldnt it be that the size of the "imaginary box" is dependent on the spells range? 1) say you had two templars spread apart a little more than double the range of storm, then when you cast storm directly halfway in between them they would both have to move to storm the location and thus the storm would stack.
Dependent of the spell's range? I'm pretty sure that maelstrom, storm, and plague have all different ranges, but yet the box size is same for DA, templar and defiler. Unless I'm not getting what you're saying T_T
2) if you had two templars spread from each other within the length of two storms they would both storm the same location (in between them) but not in formation.
I think they move to the location staying in formation, and storm in formation. Reply when you checked this out.
3) if you had two templars standing together within the range of storm and told them to storm a location they can both reach I think thats when it wil have the spread effect.
On November 18 2005 21:22 nortydog wrote: also air units in most cases have a longer spell casting range than ground units, so that would explain the bigger box size your talking about. It would be good to know the stats anyway, maybe Excalibur_z could tell us?
Again I think that dweb, ensnare and emp schockwave have different ranges and yet the box sizes are same for the 3 units that cast these spells.
It's good that you're answering these smart questions so we can find out more about these boxes ^^
On November 18 2005 14:20 mitsy wrote: in the center of gravity drops thread they said how the same thing applies to high templar storms... which is the same technique showed here, interpretted differently. this IS center of gravity in a different form
Center of gravity was a useless bullshit explanation of scatterstorming.
Well, some of you might know things about brood war, little things that not everyone knows, i will give you an example.
Mutalisks. Did you know that Mutalisks have a tongue?, and its tongue is a Gecko?, Try watching the preview in a game of a mutalisk, and keep looking at it for seconds, the mutalisk will flip out his tongue, and guess what, its a gecko. Very funny.
Reavers and Mines, The explosion of their atack are exactly the same image, blizzard only changed the mine explosion color to blue and thats what the explosion of a scarab looks like.
Esnare and Plague. Did you know that the Esnare and Plague not only are the same effect, and a change of the color. But they are also Just an effect of various Marines dying? If you watch really carefully in a slow mode and watch the queen cast the Esnare or the Defiler cast the Plague, you will see that the formed effect, are just some marines dying in another color.
I dont remember any other now, but as soon as i do, i will post them. I know quite a few, post yours if you got one.
On November 19 2005 00:49 nS-g.OoZi wrote: do you know if you can use any of these techniques to get every dship to unload at once like koreans do ?
No that is totally different thats when you click unload ont he center of gravity of the group of dropships. Search for "center of gravity dropships" to find out.
On November 19 2005 09:26 WGT)DarkXprT wrote: Well, some of you might know things about brood war, little things that not everyone knows, i will give you an example.
Mutalisks. Did you know that Mutalisks have a tongue?, and its tongue is a Gecko?, Try watching the preview in a game of a mutalisk, and keep looking at it for seconds, the mutalisk will flip out his tongue, and guess what, its a gecko. Very funny.
Reavers and Mines, The explosion of their atack are exactly the same image, blizzard only changed the mine explosion color to blue and thats what the explosion of a scarab looks like.
Esnare and Plague. Did you know that the Esnare and Plague not only are the same effect, and a change of the color. But they are also Just an effect of various Marines dying? If you watch really carefully in a slow mode and watch the queen cast the Esnare or the Defiler cast the Plague, you will see that the formed effect, are just some marines dying in another color.
I dont remember any other now, but as soon as i do, i will post them. I know quite a few, post yours if you got one.
Maybe you intended that int he Did you know thread where it would fit perfectly? :D Btw yes those have been posted before so I know of them ^^
Updated. Firstly my host went shit on me and they lost everything and had no backups and I had no copies of the pictures. I redid them and uploadded them to photobucket now.
Updated a few stuff like the box size of ground units, and the minimap thing.
People were asking bout it on PGT forums so I updated it, sorry for reviving :D
ps: i am not sure but i think some ground of unit like only tank have a bigger square than only templar and mixing type of unit in a same group can change that ( i only remember that it s not hard to figure how a group of mixing type work )
i never thought that the unit ai actually used a box ... but i know that if you click a far away destination/target then the units will either spread cast or move in formation ... until they get within their "box" distance of the target (if you told them to move)
Okay when trying to spread storm against lets say Hydras, where do I click? To spread them, you have to click on land. But then if I click on the land, that means that very little hydras would be hit even if you try to get it near them because only the edges of storm will be hitting, not the absolute center of the storm. I hope you guys understand what I'm trying to say and please don't falme me if it sounds newby
If their hydras are say formed in a solid vertical line, you arrange your 2-3 templars in a line too, as far apart as possible but still within the box. Then you click storm on a piece of land in somewhere within his wall. I'll make pictures of it if you want.
On December 28 2005 20:31 yknarf wrote: i never thought that the unit ai actually used a box ... but i know that if you click a far away destination/target then the units will either spread cast or move in formation ... until they get within their "box" distance of the target (if you told them to move)
Hmm are you saying that lets say I got 4 overlords and I gave a move command to the other side of the map, they will move in formation even if theire formation exceeds the limits of the box in the first place? I did some tests and even if you use move command to far away they clump and move towards that target because theyre exceeding the box limits.
I never could get the "center of gravity" thing to work well in game for drops. I always get about half of them spread dropping and half waiting to drop in the clump spot.
Well this box thing doesn't have anything to do with the center of gravity, despite what some people think. To me the center of gravity provides no explanation of why when 2 units exceed a certain distance they clump their spells or if they try and move.
Very good thread. Although when using swarm you don't want a horizontal line of swarm most of the time. So if you have defilers lined up verticaly in the box, they will cast swarm verticaly? I am going to test this out.
On December 31 2005 15:37 ManaBlue wrote: I never could get the "center of gravity" thing to work well in game for drops. I always get about half of them spread dropping and half waiting to drop in the clump spot.
yes that always happens. Atleast in real games T.T
But the difference from doing it on each dship seperately isn't that big, so I do it that way.
hey how about science vessels do the iradiate. can we do that this way? Because if you click the spell to 1 unit then the SV tends to cast spell on only that particular unit. any suggestion ?? thx anyways.
On January 01 2006 10:02 STAYTHESAME wrote: hey how about science vessels do the iradiate. can we do that this way? Because if you click the spell to 1 unit then the SV tends to cast spell on only that particular unit. any suggestion ?? thx anyways.
it tends to? haha
i spent hours messing around with high templars and corsairs figuring out why sometimes they spread out and sometimes they clump. you kids get the info handed out to you like candy
On January 01 2006 10:02 STAYTHESAME wrote: hey how about science vessels do the iradiate. can we do that this way? Because if you click the spell to 1 unit then the SV tends to cast spell on only that particular unit. any suggestion ?? thx anyways.
Irradiate(and Defensive Matrix) is a spell where you would actually have to click on a certain target in order to make it work. So the answer is, "No"
This is why starcraft is an awesome game. Even after years of being perfect by progamers their are still many things to learn. thanks for experimenting it out helped a bunch.
On December 31 2005 20:23 skyglow1 wrote: Yeah but the box size limits the effectiveness cause the swarms tend to overlap a bit:
Where I clicked once was used to create that effect.
Pull the middle one back a little, and move the two on the sides in just a little closer, then cast, and you'll pretty much get a triangle of swarms.
The closer the units are in relation to each other inside the box, the closer the spells will be. So, generally, you want them as far apart as possible while still being inside the box to get the maximum spread for a minimal chance of overlap.
Avoid clumping units with good control powerful advice by skyglow1
Unfortunately its already in there. How you managed to find it from somewhere other then the reccommended threads topic is amazing, as it is probably no longer easy to find.
Or you could have posted in Recommended Threads with a link to this.
Or you could have read Recommended Threads and noticed this was already in there.
(I do have a question though. If you cast outside the range of the unit, and they move there...does it still stay in formation? Or does it all stack then?)
Avoid clumping units with good control powerful advice by skyglow1
Unfortunately its already in there. How you managed to find it from somewhere other then the reccommended threads topic is amazing, as it is probably no longer easy to find.
I posted link from my other thread with the TvZ micro suggestion thing.
On October 31 2006 20:56 GrandInquisitor wrote: Or you could have posted in Recommended Threads with a link to this.
Or you could have read Recommended Threads and noticed this was already in there.
(I do have a question though. If you cast outside the range of the unit, and they move there...does it still stay in formation? Or does it all stack then?)
If they start in formation inside the box, they will stay in formation with a move command ( unless they are grouped with units out of the box). If they move there in formation, then they will attack in formation (and cast spells in formation)...what is important is if they are in the box when the spell is cast and not where they were when the spell was ordered to be cast.
On October 31 2006 20:56 GrandInquisitor wrote: Or you could have posted in Recommended Threads with a link to this.
Or you could have read Recommended Threads and noticed this was already in there.
(I do have a question though. If you cast outside the range of the unit, and they move there...does it still stay in formation? Or does it all stack then?)
Yeah but just note though, that in transit they might not move in formation. They're final positions will be the same, but 1 might take a different route to the other so they aren't parallel if you get what I mean. It doesn't matter matter anyway since they still cast in formation and thats what you want.
you must also have yellow cursor when selecting a location to cast the spell (over terrain) and not a green cursor (over a unit). This is probably why it seemed to work randomly before and people abandoned trying to do it because it appeared so very unpredictable.
Maybe thats where the mini-map Old Time way came into play because you can never select a unit specifically by clicking on the mini-map.
On October 31 2006 20:56 GrandInquisitor wrote: Or you could have posted in Recommended Threads with a link to this.
Or you could have read Recommended Threads and noticed this was already in there.
(I do have a question though. If you cast outside the range of the unit, and they move there...does it still stay in formation? Or does it all stack then?)
If they start in formation inside the box, they will stay in formation with a move command ( unless they are grouped with units out of the box). If they move there in formation, then they will attack in formation (and cast spells in formation)...what is important is if they are in the box when the spell is cast and not where they were when the spell was ordered to be cast.
That doesn't really answer my question. There's 3 possible scenarios:
1. I click inside the range of all the units. Good - it will not stack and produce gosuness. 2. I click inside the range of only SOME of the units. Presumably some units move and some don't. Does it still produce gosuness? 3. I click outside the range of all the units. All the units move - perhaps some less distance than others. Does it still produce gosuness?
On October 31 2006 20:56 GrandInquisitor wrote: Or you could have posted in Recommended Threads with a link to this.
Or you could have read Recommended Threads and noticed this was already in there.
(I do have a question though. If you cast outside the range of the unit, and they move there...does it still stay in formation? Or does it all stack then?)
If they start in formation inside the box, they will stay in formation with a move command ( unless they are grouped with units out of the box). If they move there in formation, then they will attack in formation (and cast spells in formation)...what is important is if they are in the box when the spell is cast and not where they were when the spell was ordered to be cast.
That doesn't really answer my question. There's 3 possible scenarios:
1. I click inside the range of all the units. Good - it will not stack and produce gosuness. 2. I click inside the range of only SOME of the units. Presumably some units move and some don't. Does it still produce gosuness? 3. I click outside the range of all the units. All the units move - perhaps some less distance than others. Does it still produce gosuness?
This takes 5 seconds to test in single player.
1. Yes, they don't stack. 2. Ironically, this condition doesn't exist. It's not possible to click in range of some of the group. Since the distance between each unit and its individual target is equal, they are either all in range or all not in range. 3. Again, you seem confused. The distances are equal. So they all move (the SAME distance) and cast in formation. I suppose it might take longer for some units at the back if they get jammed on units in the front.
So, to sum up: If units start inside the magic box and you cast a spell anywhere, they will move until they are within casting range and cast in formation (not necessarily at the same time if back units got jammed up).
On May 02 2008 05:10 Kakashi[Black] wrote: this is good also for zerg drops so your ovies won`t stuck now unloading drops won`t take me 24 hours xD
You're new to teamliquid so I'm sure you'll be forgiven this one time but as a rule do not bump topics that have not been commented on in two years unless you at least have something to add or a question to ask. Bumping it when having nothing important to say will get you in trouble.
I mean, I do feel like we are too harsh on new people. If the thread says Old Post underneath it, don't reply unless you have something new to add. Bumping it for "awesome!" etc. probably isn't a good idea.
i'm going to post... hopefully noone before me has asked this. if i revive a dead thread, i apologize in advance.
does the magical box always start from the left?
say you have a vertical line of vultures within the box. will the left side of the box be aligned with hte vultures while the rest of the box spreads to the right? or will it be centered, or right aligned? i'm guessing the default is to be left aligned, but is anyone willing to test this or know already? (my BW doesn''t work so i can't do it)
why do i ask? what's the point of the direction the box is sticking out? well since spread casting only works if u click outside the box and clicking inside the box will cause units to clump more tightly, a vertical line of vultures wanting to plant mines might actually clump instead of plant vertical array of mines, IF one clicks too closely, within the box.
so say the box flies is left aligned, and the box sticks out to the left for a group of vertical vultures. clicking 1 inch to the right would result in a clump while clicking 1 inch to the left would result in a neat array of vertical mines. (hint for a method of testing this)
I am pretty sure (but not 100%) that the actual box is defined by the locations of the units, and what is called the "magical box" is the maximum size for which the game exhibits the formation-saving and spell-spreading behavior. The game doesn't take a box of maximum size and place it around your units, it defines the box by where the units are, and if the box is small enough, it is magical.
For example, vultures in a short vertical line should be able to mine magically on the left OR right sides, because the box defined by the positions of the vultures does not contain the point on the left or the point on the right.
However, I have not tested this. I am merely using my programming intuition. Someone should actually test it, for science.
Good question. I just tried it out and I think I know how it works now. The box itself doesn't exist when your units are close enough together. What I mean is that if you're units are close enough, it's not like there's a box of maximum size moving around with your units.
Instead the only box of interest is one that is the minimum size to cover all your selected units. This box or more likely rectangle will be smaller than the 195x195 magic box size. As long as your command is outside this smaller rectangle, no clumping will occur. Clumping will occur if you issue a command within this rectangle. I'll edit my post to add this in.
This means that you can issue a command 1 inch away from the vultures in any direction, and it will still work, as long as you're 1 inch away.
Edit:
On June 01 2008 07:18 KonekoTyriin wrote: I am pretty sure (but not 100%) that the actual box is defined by the locations of the units, and what is called the "magical box" is the maximum size for which the game exhibits the formation-saving and spell-spreading behavior. The game doesn't take a box of maximum size and place it around your units, it defines the box by where the units are, and if the box is small enough, it is magical.
For example, vultures in a short vertical line should be able to mine magically on the left OR right sides, because the box defined by the positions of the vultures does not contain the point on the left or the point on the right.
However, I have not tested this. I am merely using my programming intuition. Someone should actually test it, for science.
ahh i see, that clears up a lot. thanks to both of you. i didn't pick up anything in the OP that said it was a maximum or that it's usually a rectangle. funny how little things like this can end up causing a bit of confusion when i'm sure the OP thought it was very clear =). interesting stuff...
so i'm also guessing that this box/rectangle is always oriented with verital and horizontal lines. so that if you have two vultures vertically, it will be a very skinny rectangle, but say one is at the top left and bottom right (at 45 degrees) then the box will expand to a square that still has vertical and horizontal walls.
(much similar to drag-selecting multiple units with your mouse and forming a box - only the beginning point and ending point is defined by the two vultures instead)
care to speculate how or if any of the magical box stuff programming could be improved or tweaked in SC2? cause i can't imagine anything... although there is a feeling that there can definitely be some extra improvement to this.
On June 01 2008 12:08 gwho wrote: so i'm also guessing that this box/rectangle is always oriented with verital and horizontal lines. so that if you have two vultures vertically, it will be a very skinny rectangle, but say one is at the top left and bottom right (at 45 degrees) then the box will expand to a square that still has vertical and horizontal walls.
(much similar to drag-selecting multiple units with your mouse and forming a box - only the beginning point and ending point is defined by the two vultures instead)
care to speculate how or if any of the magical box stuff programming could be improved or tweaked in SC2? cause i can't imagine anything... although there is a feeling that there can definitely be some extra improvement to this.
Yeah I think it's vertical and horizontal lines that are used. Dunno what they're gonna do in sc2 at all.
On June 01 2008 12:11 gwho wrote: oh nvm, i can't read.
"Theory
There are two boxes relevant to this: 1. A box of fixed size - the magic box 2. A box or rectangle that "hugs" your units as closely as possible"
right in the beginning.
Lol I only just added that in after your post so it wasn't there before.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/skyglow1/1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/skyglow1/spread1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/skyglow1/spread2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/skyglow1/spread4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/skyglow1/spread3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/skyglow1/clump1.jpg)
More squares to find out? I'll do it some time.
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/skyglow1/swarm.jpg)
