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Great guide!
As I was reading it, I felt like I had seen it before... and sure enough I had. One of my favorite players, Sea, used it vs HoeJJa in Proleague last season. Here is the VOD:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/73908_HoeJJa_vs_Sea/vod
+ Show Spoiler +Even though Sea loses in the late game, its still a great example of how to pressure the zerg without committing too much so you can tech behind it and transition into mech. Very solid early-mid game that I will be copying with the help of this guide!
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FLash wrecked zero with this build on la mancha, then lost kind of horribly on icarus (he was in the weak position).
I think this build is very weak against a straight lurker build because the slower tech prevents you from damaging the zerg.
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On December 04 2011 00:08 Miwyfe wrote:
Nice guide. However, the build is considered cheese because it is an anti muta snipe build.
I would love to see some examples of pros using this build against 3 hatch lurker and surviving. All games I have seen of this build versus 3 hatch lurker have been losses. I think it was ForGG who I first saw use this build and showed just how devastating it can be though against mutas.
Not true at all.
Vs 3h Lurker, you simply camp outside zerg's natural and deny all attempts to take a third.
It's completely stable vs all 3h builds.
Here's my reaction to this build:
Assuming FS, I send a drone to two mains at once and double expand. Whichever main he attacks I cancel and morph lurkers at the other.
Notes:
I always open 3h muta
I make my first gas at 16
I only make 2 lings and use 3 sunks
I drone to 35, 3 ovy, expo, 11 muta, den/evo, expo (1 gets canceled)
It's really important to not lose mutas. Engaging a big ball of mnm in a good position is never a good idea, no matter how good you think your micro is. Instead, you should move in then quickly move out to force a stim/gain extra time for lurkers. Only attack stray units or when his army is in a line.
A lot of terrans will straight up attack my natural, so I make 5 sunks.
Not saying this is the best way to deal with it, but this is my solution.
Nice guide 
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On December 05 2011 23:07 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 00:08 Miwyfe wrote:
Nice guide. However, the build is considered cheese because it is an anti muta snipe build.
I would love to see some examples of pros using this build against 3 hatch lurker and surviving. All games I have seen of this build versus 3 hatch lurker have been losses. I think it was ForGG who I first saw use this build and showed just how devastating it can be though against mutas. Not true at all. Vs 3h Lurker, you simply camp outside zerg's natural and deny all attempts to take a third. It's completely stable vs all 3h builds. Here's my reaction to this build: Assuming FS, I send a drone to two mains at once and double expand. Whichever main he attacks I cancel and morph lurkers at the other. Notes: I always open 3h muta I make my first gas at 16 I only make 2 lings and use 3 sunks I drone to 35, 3 ovy, expo, 11 muta, den/evo, expo (1 gets canceled) It's really important to not lose mutas. Engaging a big ball of mnm in a good position is never a good idea, no matter how good you think your micro is. Instead, you should move in then quickly move out to force a stim/gain extra time for lurkers. Only attack stray units or when his army is in a line. A lot of terrans will straight up attack my natural, so I make 5 sunks. Not saying this is the best way to deal with it, but this is my solution. Nice guide
Is the Terran army too hefty in a 5rax to wait for them to overstim after running circles around them and thenkill them off 2 groups of lings and some mutas like Soulkey does? Just wondering...
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On December 06 2011 00:07 ymir233 wrote:
Is the Terran army too hefty in a 5rax to wait for them to overstim after running circles around them and thenkill them off 2 groups of lings and some mutas like Soulkey does? Just wondering...
You can, but if you don't kill it you're kinda screwed. His reinforcement capability is way higher than yours and now you can't contest the middle of the map at all.
It has failed for me so many times that I just don't do it anymore.
Edit: Again, I'm just speaking out of how I do it. If that's your solution, then go for it. :D
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@ Deus, I thought someone might say what you did so well done. While I kind of agree with you, what do you think about 3 hatch lurker drop builds? Not necessarily offensive lurker drop (into Terrans main) but just to ferry a drone out to take a third with lurker support (for example on Benzene). Or to get a sandwichy on the mnm camped outside Zergs nat.
Infact that has prompted me to realize that this build is weaker on island maps such as grandline or empire of the sun because Zerg can take an island base and there is no threat to it at all for a significant amount of time. However this is all assuming Zerg opens with a 3 hatch lurker build (and that is slightly risky in itself).
Yeah, its a really interesting build order no dount about it.
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On December 06 2011 00:49 Miwyfe wrote:
@ Deus, I thought someone might say what you did so well done. While I kind of agree with you, what do you think about 3 hatch lurker drop builds? Not necessarily offensive lurker drop (into Terrans main) but just to ferry a drone out to take a third with lurker support (for example on Benzene). Or to get a sandwichy on the mnm camped outside Zergs nat.
Infact that has prompted me to realize that this build is weaker on island maps such as grandline or empire of the sun because Zerg can take an island base and there is no threat to it at all for a significant amount of time. However this is all assuming Zerg opens with a 3 hatch lurker build (and that is slightly risky in itself).
Yeah, its a really interesting build order no dount about it.
I have no experience with that build, so I have no idea.
It takes a long time for drop and ovy speed to finish though, so keep that in mind. Plus it eats into your already low gas count off 2bases.
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On December 06 2011 00:58 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 00:49 Miwyfe wrote:
@ Deus, I thought someone might say what you did so well done. While I kind of agree with you, what do you think about 3 hatch lurker drop builds? Not necessarily offensive lurker drop (into Terrans main) but just to ferry a drone out to take a third with lurker support (for example on Benzene). Or to get a sandwichy on the mnm camped outside Zergs nat.
Infact that has prompted me to realize that this build is weaker on island maps such as grandline or empire of the sun because Zerg can take an island base and there is no threat to it at all for a significant amount of time. However this is all assuming Zerg opens with a 3 hatch lurker build (and that is slightly risky in itself).
Yeah, its a really interesting build order no dount about it. I have no experience with that build, so I have no idea. It takes a long time for drop and ovy speed to finish though, so keep that in mind. Plus it eats into your already low gas count off 2bases.
Yeah I was gonna say you'd think it would slow down zerg tech/lower lurker count giving the terran an even bigger advantage
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Heh I remember this one. It basically made 3 Hatch on Blue Storm an insta-lose, and 4 Rax was essentially the more conservative route that would royally screw Zerg over. It's still a really strong build, especially against foreign Zergs, since I'm willing to bet that most of them have never played against this style.
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On December 06 2011 00:49 Miwyfe wrote:
@ Deus, I thought someone might say what you did so well done. While I kind of agree with you, what do you think about 3 hatch lurker drop builds? Not necessarily offensive lurker drop (into Terrans main) but just to ferry a drone out to take a third with lurker support (for example on Benzene). Or to get a sandwichy on the mnm camped outside Zergs nat.
Infact that has prompted me to realize that this build is weaker on island maps such as grandline or empire of the sun because Zerg can take an island base and there is no threat to it at all for a significant amount of time. However this is all assuming Zerg opens with a 3 hatch lurker build (and that is slightly risky in itself).
Yeah, its a really interesting build order no dount about it.
I played a game against someone who did exactly that. 3Hatch lurker into drop. Maybe you? It was on FS so no island expos, but still he was able to drop drones on the side expansions that I wasn't scouting (shame on me) and took his 3rd-4th without much of a problem. I don't care how many marines I have, 2 lurkers and a sunken or two right on top of a ramp will stop me every time. My only hope is be active scouting enough that I can deny it before he gets his defenses up.
I reacted to his lurker drop in my main fairly well, but due to some unfortunate building placement, it still did a fair bit of damage; probably 5-10scvs and 10-15 marines for 6 lurkers. Definitely paid for itself but I'm pretty sure he would have won anyways since I let him get such a fast 4th gas T.T
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konadora
Singapore66355 Posts
hiya personally recommended this build on his stream lol
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Fuck this build and anyone that plays it. I'm like 0-12 against it so far.
+ Show Spoiler +
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This build is rough to play against as Z. I have found the best solution is just to build 2-3 groups of lings after mutas but before you grab your third.
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On December 15 2011 16:34 Phyrigian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 17:00 Reuental wrote:
This build is rough to play against as Z. I have found the best solution is just to build 2-3 groups of lings after mutas but before you grab your third. hi crabmanx, guess who this is op, i hate this build so much :x, can you try find a pro game of a zerg winning vs it so i can study it?
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/77410_HiyA_vs_n.Die_soO/vod
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what happens if he puts his 3rd hatch in base?
although i dont know what are the ramifications on the zerg's part of it builds its 3rd hatch in base. gas shortage?
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On December 15 2011 21:19 icystorage wrote:
what happens if he puts his 3rd hatch in base?
although i dont know what are the ramifications on the zerg's part of it builds its 3rd hatch in base. gas shortage?
??
It's normal for Zerg to put his 3rd hatch in base.
we're talking about pressuring his 3rd gas which normally would be his 4th hatch.
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On December 15 2011 21:43 don_kyuhote wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:19 icystorage wrote:
what happens if he puts his 3rd hatch in base?
although i dont know what are the ramifications on the zerg's part of it builds its 3rd hatch in base. gas shortage? ?? It's normal for Zerg to put his 3rd hatch in base. we're talking about pressuring his 3rd gas which normally would be his 4th hatch.
oh lol, i was thinking 3rd gas ._.
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This strat is good i might use it in the futre :o
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EPT
