|
Most people look at new things sceptical, so everybody seems to react the same way when they see my PvZ build, crying on my stream every time that they don't know how this could ever work against 9pool (sup draw), or simply that it's not as good as the usual build.
Now, I tried to compare my own opening, currently still on a very low level (2 replays) and tried to point out some things.
First off, what is the LML PvZ Build, how did it originate and why do I even do it as there is a pretty solid PvZ FE opening already?
Well, things are easy, about two years ago or maybe a little less, I was a little frustrated with PvZ as every other zerg played a counter against standard FE of the Protoss or doing some zergling runby.
Naturally that can frustrate, hurt your eco or even lose you the game early on depending on their choice to beat you trying to do a standard game to practice.
In order to prevent that, I developed some 1 base 1gate DT rush against Zerg and damn, how many Zergs complained when they scouted it about how "wow, I would have fun if you went FE", right, another Zerg who went counter-FE, I heard that alot actually, sad enough.
So, while a DT rush might work well against lower rank Zergs until even C rank sometimes, sneaking a DT into their main, it hasn't been effective at all against decent Zergs.
After that I tried some other stuff from 1base to put pressure on and expand (btw, I expanded after the DT rush and made an archon and speedlots from 4gates quickly) so much blabla short: I realized that the fast expansion can be pretty cruical and I had to come up with yet something new.
It's in my nature that I never do standard build orders just because some progamer uses it, I am not a progamer, I use what suit myself the best and try to alter everything so I can use it.
So I tried various ideas and one seemed somewhat likely to work. I actually had a big issue with 9pool in the beginning but instead of giving up, I developed more skill and practiced, making the chance of me dying versus 9pool alot lower (but please refrain from trying it to prove me wrong;)
Okay, so let's go ahead to what the difference actually is:
instead of sending your 7th probe far away to make a pylon instead of gathering minerals, you make a pylon in your mainbase, just as in every match up. Now, instead of sending yet another probe far out to make a forge, you stay inside your main and make a gateway instead as in every mu, 8pylon, 10gate, but now follows a 12forge, and either the probe making the forge or shortly after you send out a probe to your natural, place a pylon and go scout.
Your gate finishes, you cut one probe on 13supply to make a zealot and shortly after your forge finishes you send out a probe that will arrive at your natural just when you get the 150minerals (btw, Fighting Spirit crossposition 5pool will arrive shortly after placing the cannon but your zealot is done by that), now you have a zealot, a building cannon and a scouting probe. With your next 400 minerals you make your nexus, the next 200 minerals are used for a second zealot and an assimilator, which comes first depends on your opponent, did he get early gas and would go for speedlings? Rather get a 2nd zealot, but otherwise get the assimilator first. After that, the next 100minerals go to another pylon, then you make your 2nd cannon and a cybernetics core (at your natural to wall off, otherwise lings are too strong, took me some while to figure that, thanks whistler for demonstrating it to me by a mass ling runby).
Your nexus should be about to finish at this point, transfer 8probes over, and use the one that has been long distance mining from your natural while building the additional cannon and core, make an assimilator at your nat.
What you do then depends on what strat you play, let's say the new Bisu build, get your stargate and citadel in your mainbase, use your 2nd gateway to complete your wall and if your scouting probe died by now and you couldn't sneak another one in or you saw him going for something to bust you, get additional cannon(s), also another pylon.
Okay, so, many people claimed I would be in an economical disadvantage because my nexus is later, yes, my nexus is later, no, I don't have an economical disadvantage.
Let's compare my opening compared to the standard FE:
Standard FE:
- sends out 7th probe
- sends out 10th or so for forge
My build order:
I don't send out a probe until my supply is 12, lots of economy advantage, imo.
So, I took a replay of mine where I actually managed to not miss too much stuff (for some reason i made 2nd zealot before assimilator, prolly was before I changed that around) and compared it to a replay of Stork going standard FE.
Stork however sends out his forge probe for scouting and then uses 3 to block zerglings, well, zealots might be more useful (lucky I got some) and if zerglings get into your main? Zealots can follow them! Notice: mass all-in zergling will follow up, proper scouting is adviced, otherwise he can still overrun your front when you kill the lings in your main!
Okay, let's do some basic comparisons:
Note: both games are played on fighting spirit.
- At 3:22 Stork has spent money for the following things:
Nexus (400), Forge (150), 2 Pylons (200), Cannon (150), Gateway (150), got 17 supply and has 72 minerals (also supply stuck, lings prolly made him do 2nd cannon instead of pylon/gate).
- At 3:22 LML has spent money for the following things:
Nexus (400), Forge (150), Gateway (150), 2 Pylons (200), Cannon (150), Zealot (100), 24 supply and has 88 minerals.
All in all (note that the zealot has 2 supply for LML):
Stork: 400+150+200+150+150+17*50+72 = 1972
LML: 400+150+150+200+150+100+22*50+88 = 2344
Okay, even if Stork hadn't pulled 3 probes for defending, I doubt they would have gathered about 400 minerals within that time.
Timings:
LML:
- 3:02 - 400minerals for Nexus
- 4:52 - Stargate
Stork:
- 2:42 - 400 minerals for Nexus
- 4:52 - Stargate
Other notes:
5minutes in:
Stork:
- 3458 Minerals gathered
- 232 Gas gathered
- 34 supply (once again supply stuck)
LML:
- 3682 Minerals gathered
- 312 Gas gathered
- 33 supply
Then I did another cut at 7:30, but stork's natural gets attacked by mutas around 7:20 and he loses a small amount of probes and then retreats, not the best replay to pick, but I will look into other progamers on FS if I find some standard games.
The difference in minerals is still noticable:
Stork:
- 6850 Minerals gathered
- 1584 Gas gathered
- 54 supply (lost some probes to mutas at this point, maybe even a corsair, can't recall)
LML:
- 7458 Minerals gathered
- 1792 Gas gathered
- 68 supply
Other things:
"but such open cannons may enforce 6 or 8 zergling attacks so that single cannon dies"
- Yes, but besides that you have a zealot that can still help you together with probes to defend, the zerg could to the exact same against a forge, 1cannon expansion.
"how about 9pool?"
- quiet draw
"what about mass zerglings?"
- The same as with a standard FE, proper scouting is what a Protoss needs, Zergs have alot of options and unless you can keep your probe alive until the lair is done, you will have to try to scout over and over again to be sure there is no all-in coming in.
Standard FE people lose against all-in all the time, too, due to the lack of scouting, sup?
I will upload the replays later tonight so you can check them, too (both are shameless early loses, Stork losing to mutas, LML losing to hydras).
The main subject is, it's 5pool proof, btw, the zealot pops when lings arrive, zealot+probes are better than probes only!
Me: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43571
Stork: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=41386
|
|
|
On September 08 2011 05:27 LML wrote:
Most people look at new things sceptical, so everybody seems to react the same way when they see my PvZ build, crying on my stream every time that they don't know how this could ever work against 9pool (sup draw), or simply that it's not as good as the usual build.
Now, I tried to compare my own opening, currently still on a very low level (2 replays) and tried to point out some things.
First off, what is the LML PvZ Build, how did it originate and why do I even do it as there is a pretty solid PvZ FE opening already?
Well, things are easy, about two years ago or maybe a little less, I was a little frustrated with PvZ as every other zerg played a counter against standard FE of the Protoss or doing some zergling runby.
Naturally that can frustrate, hurt your eco or even lose you the game early on depending on their choice to beat you trying to do a standard game to practice.
In order to prevent that, I developed some 1 base 1gate DT rush against Zerg and damn, how many Zergs complained when they scouted it about how "wow, I would have fun if you went FE", right, another Zerg who went counter-FE, I heard that alot actually, sad enough.
So, while a DT rush might work well against lower rank Zergs until even C rank sometimes, sneaking a DT into their main, it hasn't been effective at all against decent Zergs.
After that I tried some other stuff from 1base to put pressure on and expand (btw, I expanded after the DT rush and made an archon and speedlots from 4gates quickly) so much blabla short: I realized that the fast expansion can be pretty cruical and I had to come up with yet something new.
It's in my nature that I never do standard build orders just because some progamer uses it, I am not a progamer, I use what suit myself the best and try to alter everything so I can use it.
So I tried various ideas and one seemed somewhat likely to work. I actually had a big issue with 9pool in the beginning but instead of giving up, I developed more skill and practiced, making the chance of me dying versus 9pool alot lower (but please refrain from trying it to prove me wrong;)
Okay, so let's go ahead to what the difference actually is:
instead of sending your 7th probe far away to make a pylon instead of gathering minerals, you make a pylon in your mainbase, just as in every match up. Now, instead of sending yet another probe far out to make a forge, you stay inside your main and make a gateway instead as in every mu, 8pylon, 10gate, but now follows a 12forge, and either the probe making the forge or shortly after you send out a probe to your natural, place a pylon and go scout.
Your gate finishes, you cut one probe on 13supply to make a zealot and shortly after your forge finishes you send out a probe that will arrive at your natural just when you get the 150minerals (btw, Fighting Spirit crossposition 5pool will arrive shortly after placing the cannon but your zealot is done by that), now you have a zealot, a building cannon and a scouting probe. With your next 400 minerals you make your nexus, the next 200 minerals are used for a second zealot and an assimilator, which comes first depends on your opponent, did he get early gas and would go for speedlings? Rather get a 2nd zealot, but otherwise get the assimilator first. After that, the next 100minerals go to another pylon, then you make your 2nd cannon and a cybernetics core (at your natural to wall off, otherwise lings are too strong, took me some while to figure that, thanks whistler for demonstrating it to me by a mass ling runby).
Your nexus should be about to finish at this point, transfer 8probes over, and use the one that has been long distance mining from your natural while building the additional cannon and core, make an assimilator at your nat.
What you do then depends on what strat you play, let's say the new Bisu build, get your stargate and citadel in your mainbase, use your 2nd gateway to complete your wall and if your scouting probe died by now and you couldn't sneak another one in or you saw him going for something to bust you, get additional cannon(s), also another pylon.
Okay, so, many people claimed I would be in an economical disadvantage because my nexus is later, yes, my nexus is later, no, I don't have an economical disadvantage.
Let's compare my opening compared to the standard FE:
Standard FE:
- sends out 7th probe
- sends out 10th or so for forge
My build order:
I don't send out a probe until my supply is 12, lots of economy advantage, imo.
So, I took a replay of mine where I actually managed to not miss too much stuff (for some reason i made 2nd zealot before assimilator, prolly was before I changed that around) and compared it to a replay of Stork going standard FE.
Stork however sends out his forge probe for scouting and then uses 3 to block zerglings, well, zealots might be more useful (lucky I got some) and if zerglings get into your main? Zealots can follow them! Notice: mass all-in zergling will follow up, proper scouting is adviced, otherwise he can still overrun your front when you kill the lings in your main!
Okay, let's do some basic comparisons:
Note: both games are played on fighting spirit.
- At 3:22 Stork has spent money for the following things:
Nexus (400), Forge (150), 2 Pylons (200), Cannon (150), Gateway (150), got 17 supply and has 72 minerals (also supply stuck, lings prolly made him do 2nd cannon instead of pylon/gate).
- At 3:22 LML has spent money for the following things:
Nexus (400), Forge (150), Gateway (150), 2 Pylons (200), Cannon (150), Zealot (100), 24 supply and has 88 minerals.
All in all (note that the zealot has 2 supply for LML):
Stork: 400+150+200+150+150+17*50+72 = 1972
LML: 400+150+150+200+150+100+22*50+88 = 2344
Okay, even if Stork hadn't pulled 3 probes for defending, I doubt they would have gathered about 400 minerals within that time.
Timings:
LML:
- 3:02 - 400minerals for Nexus
- 4:52 - Stargate
Stork:
- 2:42 - 400 minerals for Nexus
- 4:52 - Stargate
Other notes:
5minutes in:
Stork:
- 3458 Minerals gathered
- 232 Gas gathered
- 34 supply (once again supply stuck)
LML:
- 3682 Minerals gathered
- 312 Gas gathered
- 33 supply
Then I did another cut at 7:30, but stork's natural gets attacked by mutas around 7:20 and he loses a small amount of probes and then retreats, not the best replay to pick, but I will look into other progamers on FS if I find some standard games.
The difference in minerals is still noticable:
Stork:
- 6850 Minerals gathered
- 1584 Gas gathered
- 54 supply (lost some probes to mutas at this point, maybe even a corsair, can't recall)
LML:
- 7458 Minerals gathered
- 1792 Gas gathered
- 68 supply
Other things:
"but such open cannons may enforce 6 or 8 zergling attacks so that single cannon dies"
- Yes, but besides that you have a zealot that can still help you together with probes to defend, the zerg could to the exact same against a forge, 1cannon expansion.
"how about 9pool?"
- quiet draw
"what about mass zerglings?"
- The same as with a standard FE, proper scouting is what a Protoss needs, Zergs have alot of options and unless you can keep your probe alive until the lair is done, you will have to try to scout over and over again to be sure there is no all-in coming in.
Standard FE people lose against all-in all the time, too, due to the lack of scouting, sup?
I will upload the replays later tonight so you can check them, too (both are shameless early loses, Stork losing to mutas, LML losing to hydras).
The main subject is, it's 5pool proof, btw, the zealot pops when lings arrive, zealot+probes are better than probes only!
I don't mean to bang you down or anything but I am pretty sure this is the style that Jangbi has been using for quite some time now.
|
the difference is that jangbi and other pros send their probe out earlier to make the pylon and gateway farther away, losing mining time in comparison with LMLs build, and then getting it back by having a faster nexus as well as a safer defense, and the ability to pressure and not die to a counter attack.
nice writeup LML, i have some questions though
#1 you havent mentioned why your build actually works vs 9pool. seems to me that your cannon would come too late and the lings would run by your zealot and kill lots of probes
#2 you say you dont send out a probe at all until 12supply, does this mean you dont scout until that time? So you wouldnt see 4/5/9pools etc coming and be unable to react by sending probes until the lings are already in your natural, and possibly going up your ramp?
#3 you complete your wall with a core+gateway, so that means that if the zerg attacks you with hydralisks or lurkers and ranges the core, you are unable to complete a dragoon range or 1+ air weapons upgrade. this seems like a pretty huge deal to me, if z goes lurkers and you have to cancel goon range and build another core, thats going to make breaking out of lurker contains, or taking map control much harder/slower. same thing with 1+ air, if you went for a bisu style sair build like is popular these days, the opponent can counter you with a fast lurker opening and followup with scourge or muta/scourge, taking air control away from you which effectively ruins the build.
#4 whether or not you wall with a core and 2nd gateway, your wall isnt going to be completed in time to prevent a ling runby if zerg goes gas first. what do you do in this circumstance? 2 cannons + 2 zealots will kill only a few as they run into your main
#5 harassing with your first few zealots will put you at high risk for a counter attack, as you have nothing to fall back on, or be forced to alter your build by throwing down 2nd gateway/more cannons earlier than normal. This also means that if you want to be both safe and efficient, you cant go reaver/sair or any build that involves a late 2nd gateway (so any mass sair build..) as you wont start it by the time ling speed is finished with a standard 3hatch lair build.
#6 zerg can use his first 6 or 8 zerglings in pretty much any opening to run by your 1 cannon and (1 or 2) zealots and do damage to your main mineral line. a zerg with good ling control will be able to keep lings alive indefinitely against slow zealots, sniping off probes here and there until you either add a cannon (which puts you behind anyway) or counter attack and force his attention elsewhere. If said zerg with good control didnt have speed before when he ran in, he can keep them alive until he does and you cant really do anything about it unless he fucks up. As I mentioned above, counter attacking is pretty risky, much more so when you have lings in your base that can aid in busting your front if the option appeals to the zerg.
in conclusion, i think that if you played deska you would lose because he does all of the above. plz prove me wrong though
|
The pros are doing a modification of it, I argued that it was bad because your expo AND tech is later than normal FE. The build I used in ISL is similar to jangbi's where you get a sair out by 5:35 and +1 12zlot push @ 7:15, but that's after using advantages you are getting. I've seen in many situations where your s.gate is later than their tech or you have to put up 4-5 cannons blind, due to lack of simcity/scouting which further delays such tech.
You're basically trying to go in a safe in-between FE and 1-base build which is not capitalizing on really either. Do what works for you, but my argument was it's mostly less than optimal thus making it bad. (Your example of stork is a pro gamer in pro situation, the replays are incomparable as your opponents do not exploit your weaknesses as well as a pro gamer can exploit the same situation)
|
Well, besides that I don't watch progaming, many people have commented on my way to open PvZ to be a bad way to open it, however, I wanted to do some investigation myself to see what I can come up with compared to the standard FE.
Now to the JangBi stuff, I watched the VOD from #1, and he does the thing that I love about my way to open PvZ differently: making the stuff inside your base and scout later in order to have a better economy.
He placed his gate outside in order to make a wall, made two zealots before a forge, got his nexus later than me even though he spent 50 less minerals for structures/units (can't know bout probes but my probe production only has a 2-4second break at 13supply), also he had 2zealots instead of 1zealot and a cannon.
Those are quite some differences, imo.
edit: I will go to sleep now, I will answer you tomorrow.
|
10387 Posts
economy in PvZ doesn't mean squat if your tech is late and you miss all the timings
your build is inflexible compared to Forge-FE, (12 scout seriously?) and your main point that it beats 5pool? Standard Forge FE will beat 5pool 90% of the time, and put you at a considerable advantage if you play correctly. Also, standard forge timing is 11/12, not 10, and to use Stork as an example ......
I'd honestly like to see you play against someone who knows how to play 9pool (speed or no speed) well, you say that in Forge-FE 1 cannon will die to 6-8 lings too, but for that reason Protosses will almost always make 2 cannons against 6+ lings anyways (unless map choke is small), whereas you will only have 1 cannon+zealot with no simcity, so Zerg can just run past anyways and wreak havoc in your main, and god help you if it's speedlings.
also regarding the Gate-FE, it isn't specific only to Jangbi, but instead is map/choke-specific, to New Bloody Ridge. Free showed it off first during the SPL Playoffs, and almost all PvZs have used that opening on NBR since.
possibly my opinion can be changed if I see some replays, but I doubt it.
|
i applaud you for thinking outside the box and trying something different and being successful with it. i hate copying korean style, i enjoy something different. i guess it's the foreigner in me and probably why i suck. on another note, i like doing 1 gate builds b/c it forces the zerg to adapt to you. when i fe it feels like the zerg has so many more options for different builds, when you 1 gate it probably takes them out of their comfort zone a little bit.
|
On September 08 2011 10:54 ArvickHero wrote:
economy in PvZ doesn't mean squat if your tech is late and you miss all the timings
your build is inflexible compared to Forge-FE, (12 scout seriously?) and your main point that it beats 5pool? Standard Forge FE will beat 5pool 90% of the time, and put you at a considerable advantage if you play correctly. Also, standard forge timing is 11/12, not 10, and to use Stork as an example ......
I'd honestly like to see you play against someone who knows how to play 9pool (speed or no speed) well, you say that in Forge-FE 1 cannon will die to 6-8 lings too, but for that reason Protosses will almost always make 2 cannons against 6+ lings anyways (unless map choke is small), whereas you will only have 1 cannon+zealot with no simcity, so Zerg can just run past anyways and wreak havoc in your main, and god help you if it's speedlings.
also regarding the Gate-FE, it isn't specific only to Jangbi, but instead is map/choke-specific, to New Bloody Ridge. Free showed it off first during the SPL Playoffs, and almost all PvZs have used that opening on NBR since.
possibly my opinion can be changed if I see some replays, but I doubt it.
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/tourney/grid/10889.html goto replays LML vs Southpark.
|
what i havent seen anyone mention is the effect on the zerg and it cocking up his build. one thing i was trying was doing gateway first, one zealot, then nexus forge cannons (order can vary upon zerg). I assume this is the 'jangbi' style people have discussed. (got it from stok vs jaedong on collosuem wcg)
for example one game recently where I tried it the zerg must have assumed i was maybe doing 10/12 gate and was forced into throwing up a sunken and just hindering his economy a bit.
but yeah only kind of had success with it on colloseum where 12 hatch seems to be common, meaning your zealot gets to their base and causes a bit of havoc before lings
|
United States11390 Posts
On September 08 2011 10:54 ArvickHero wrote:
economy in PvZ doesn't mean squat if your tech is late and you miss all the timings
your build is inflexible compared to Forge-FE, (12 scout seriously?) and your main point that it beats 5pool? Standard Forge FE will beat 5pool 90% of the time, and put you at a considerable advantage if you play correctly. Also, standard forge timing is 11/12, not 10, and to use Stork as an example ......
I'd honestly like to see you play against someone who knows how to play 9pool (speed or no speed) well, you say that in Forge-FE 1 cannon will die to 6-8 lings too, but for that reason Protosses will almost always make 2 cannons against 6+ lings anyways (unless map choke is small), whereas you will only have 1 cannon+zealot with no simcity, so Zerg can just run past anyways and wreak havoc in your main, and god help you if it's speedlings.
also regarding the Gate-FE, it isn't specific only to Jangbi, but instead is map/choke-specific, to New Bloody Ridge. Free showed it off first during the SPL Playoffs, and almost all PvZs have used that opening on NBR since.
possibly my opinion can be changed if I see some replays, but I doubt it.
You can use it on other maps too.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/77920_great_vs_sHy (being used on CB is actually pretty big since that means you can apply it to other similar maps ie FS)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/79316_Neo.G_Soulkey_vs_sHy (gate in main since it's impossible to wall off on empire fully as there are always holes)
It's also been around in the foreign scene for ages thanks to Shauni. He uses it a lot on HBR and also other maps like Tau. http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43569 http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43570 (earlier tech makes fighting vs 3hat hydra a lot easier)
You don't have to make it your standard as forge FE is still great but you can't understate how this can throw zergs off. You can really catch zergs offguard who just blindly expect forge fe and destroy them. (See how Soulkey gets punished for 2 ling heavy droning.)
|
o ya i forgot, #7 this build is also at an auto disadvantage to 12hatch because u dont scout soon enough to react to it and cant skimp on defenses to give you faster tech/economy.
the effect on zerg and "cocking up his build" is negligible, because it wont. Im talking about good zergs, not newbs who throw up a sunken colony because they think there is a second gateway. All zerg needs to do is build 6 initial zerglings like usual and be prepared to build more after a considerable amount of droning, also like usual. LMLs build, as far as i can tell, doesnt give any extra zealots besides the first one, which cant threaten the zerg until at least one more is made, and that wont happen until all necessary tech is set down. He replaces an early scout and possible second cannon with an early gateway, a few more minerals mined, and one zealot.
|
good build, it makes sense to me at least.
we have our gateway faster which means mobile units
we might get our nexus a little later but we can justify that by the fact we don't have to get a gateway and can just get our core out faster.
i also see potential in the fact you can get a second gas very fast due to the fact you already have a gateway so there is some experimentation you can do with that
there are alot of zealot timing attacks that just become stronger by the fact you have that early gateway and can pump more zealots because of it although it might be only 1 lot more :/
as far as stargate timings go, i think they become weaker but still with the timing attacks you can do with zealots/dragoon/templar/archon/strom/dt/reaver to me it seems to be alot more flexible then a standard forge fe
also you can do some cheesy all ins with probe/lot and cannon rushing with that while expanding with the opening which to me makes sense to do although idk anything about it
in theory i believe this build to be better then a forge fe but more weak to air then usual which isn't a big deal with the amount of flexibility you gain from doing this.
|
To me it seems that you will get much behind if zerg opens with 12 hatch. Normally with 12FE, toss in worst case will put the nexus down after forge. In your situation, you will put down nexus after forge, gateway, zealot and cannon! And you will be unable to pressure the zerg with one zealot.
|
Australia7069 Posts
I dont really understand how you could think this build is somehow better. you compared a replay if yours with a replay of stork? really? at least do some comparable testing if you're going to throw stats up. From what you wrote, it basically sounds like you're compensating for not learning how to wall by being super duper safe. After an opening like that, even vs a 9 pool you'd be economically even or behind, god forbid they 12 hatch. If you scouted them last the zerg could 3h before pool and be safe. not scouting early in pvz is suicide, maybe not because you die to lings, but because you cant cut the corners that you need to in any fe build. In fact, if you scout correctly(unlike me) you can findout if a speedling runby/allin is coming and take appropriate steps. if a zerg commits the resources to a speedling runby, and it doesn't work, you come out ahead even if you pull a few probes off mining until a zealot comes out....
|
I am slightly confused. You talk about a ling runby as a dangerous situation for a fe pvz.
In my expirience, a runby is almost compleatly impossible asuming you have the skill to keep your probe alive in zerg base untill he gets zergling speed. This is a dificult manouvr if the zerg is good with his ling control, but the lack of tech, drones, and the cosntant ling increasing numbers should give you enought information to simply find an "effective" way to stop a potential runby.
Most of the time, when i see a protss lose to a zerg early after a fast expand is becouse that probe died and did not see what the zerg was doing. In my case, if that happens, or i even feel it can (the zerg is controlling the lings very good) i make 1 zealot asap for scouting and send it with another probe (zealot fights, probe runs in to scout).
The general idea for a Fast expand is: scout well untill your corsair is the scouter (so you dont die to anything potentially coming before your corsair scouts+the time needed for extra defence).
Also, i think you are making a huge mistake by not giving exact timings (saying things like "standard fe sends 7th probe, 10th probe forge or something" demonstrates you either dont want to get into details, or dont know how to fast expo).
In Fast expands everything matters, and i have not only timed its a 8th probe, but depending on the map i even time the travel time to the pylons building location. Then you dont make forge unless you scout the first location and :
A: Dont see your enemy there.
B: See him and he 9 pools.
You can "even" go 11 nexux 11 forge if its 4 player map and he scouted wrong, as that will stop over/pool in maps like destination by 2 seconds frametime (if perfectly executed).
The problem with your build, is extremely simple: gas steal from zerg scout drone at 8.
Also, LML, plz write your Bo in a easy to see format, that bulk text is very hard to control effectivly :D.
I think your build is very risky becouse mainly, it depends very, very highly on your skill overcoming your enemies in micro, and multi.
I did not see the replay you metion yet as i am at work right now, yet i will see it at home and perhaps change my opinion afterwards, thou i would need your rep and storks :D.
|
In my expirience, a runby is almost compleatly impossible asuming Depends on map. On FS, where you can make a tight wall with 2 buildings and 1 zealot, runby is somewhat hard to execute. On python it is much easier, for example. I can remember the times when every ZvP was played via zergling runby, successful or not.
|
Australia7069 Posts
god i hate python. it still boggles my mind that protoss players host it. impossible pvz, impossible pvt, you're basically forced to cheese in both matchups.
conversely its pretty fun pvp, because the different spawn locations change the matchup so radically
|
On September 08 2011 10:08 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
the difference is that jangbi and other pros send their probe out earlier to make the pylon and gateway farther away, losing mining time in comparison with LMLs build, and then getting it back by having a faster nexus as well as a safer defense, and the ability to pressure and not die to a counter attack.
nice writeup LML, i have some questions though
#1 you havent mentioned why your build actually works vs 9pool. seems to me that your cannon would come too late and the lings would run by your zealot and kill lots of probes
#2 you say you dont send out a probe at all until 12supply, does this mean you dont scout until that time? So you wouldnt see 4/5/9pools etc coming and be unable to react by sending probes until the lings are already in your natural, and possibly going up your ramp?
#3 you complete your wall with a core+gateway, so that means that if the zerg attacks you with hydralisks or lurkers and ranges the core, you are unable to complete a dragoon range or 1+ air weapons upgrade. this seems like a pretty huge deal to me, if z goes lurkers and you have to cancel goon range and build another core, thats going to make breaking out of lurker contains, or taking map control much harder/slower. same thing with 1+ air, if you went for a bisu style sair build like is popular these days, the opponent can counter you with a fast lurker opening and followup with scourge or muta/scourge, taking air control away from you which effectively ruins the build.
#4 whether or not you wall with a core and 2nd gateway, your wall isnt going to be completed in time to prevent a ling runby if zerg goes gas first. what do you do in this circumstance? 2 cannons + 2 zealots will kill only a few as they run into your main
#5 harassing with your first few zealots will put you at high risk for a counter attack, as you have nothing to fall back on, or be forced to alter your build by throwing down 2nd gateway/more cannons earlier than normal. This also means that if you want to be both safe and efficient, you cant go reaver/sair or any build that involves a late 2nd gateway (so any mass sair build..) as you wont start it by the time ling speed is finished with a standard 3hatch lair build.
#6 zerg can use his first 6 or 8 zerglings in pretty much any opening to run by your 1 cannon and (1 or 2) zealots and do damage to your main mineral line. a zerg with good ling control will be able to keep lings alive indefinitely against slow zealots, sniping off probes here and there until you either add a cannon (which puts you behind anyway) or counter attack and force his attention elsewhere. If said zerg with good control didnt have speed before when he ran in, he can keep them alive until he does and you cant really do anything about it unless he fucks up. As I mentioned above, counter attacking is pretty risky, much more so when you have lings in your base that can aid in busting your front if the option appeals to the zerg.
in conclusion, i think that if you played deska you would lose because he does all of the above. plz prove me wrong though
#1 seeing that I always work on getting better timings I had huge problems with 9pool when I first started to use this strategy, nowadays practice friends sometimes go 9pool and usually my cannon just finishes in time just before the lings come in, and together with the zealot i can either block them if they actually try to ran past it or want to surround it.
#2 yes, I scout at that time, if I find the zerg on the first try I know what he went according to his hatchery in his natural. 4/5 pool usually comes in just after throwing down my cannon, so I can cancel it and transfer probes together with my zealot which will pop at that point to fight them off, the zealot forces the zerg to manually target the probes 100% or they will try to get through to the zealot.
Since your zealot is out b4 9pool arrives, by far, you can send it infront of your nat to scout for incoming zerglings, I do that pretty often, especially if I don't scout the Zerg on the first try. That way the zealot can also block zealots and you can send 2 or 3 probes to your nat if you think your cannon will not finish in time.
#3 yes, that's could turn out as a problem, upon scouting it one usually places a second forge, I would indeed place a slightly more expensive building then, maybe I meet the wrong people on ladders and everywhere, never happened to me in the past year tbh o,o'
#4 well, that happened some times already, of course, if my scouting probe dies (as said by some1 else, that if your probe dies early on you don't notice mass lings, the same happened in my game vs SouthPark that draw pointed out, I didn't pay attention and my first probe died, my 2nd probe scouted for expansions instead and I didn't scout the zerglingbust).
The same problem could occur with any expansion opening if your probe dies and you don't see it in time and hence cannot put probes in order to prevent a runby. In my case I can send 1 to 2 zealots after them to keep one on each side of my economyline in order for them to lower the harrass there and go to the buildings he will focus instead then (ofc probes would help those zealots, but having a zealot with your probes is always better than not having one with them).
#5 which is the main reason why I rarely use my initial zealot for harrassing, however, this is a very good option if the zerg blindly goes 3hatch before pool, send out your zealot and together with your probe you can harrass his economy quite well. Against 12hatch you can harrass his natural's eco for about 1 drone before his lings arrive, usually, however that may force you to another zealot before nexus which would delay your nexus.
#6 answer #4, keep your zealot near your probes and pay attention to your economy to pull probes back from lings and oftenly the zealot might get at least one hit off, if probes assist might even catch a ling, just as usual defense, just you got 1zealot which you usually don't.
On September 08 2011 18:24 iloveav wrote:Also, i think you are making a huge mistake by not giving exact timings (saying things like "standard fe sends 7th probe, 10th probe forge or something" demonstrates you either dont want to get into details, or dont know how to fast expo).
As you could take from the OP, I don't really play standard FE anymore since about 2years now, so I don't know the exact timings, indeed.
For those who asked, here a vague bo description (I don't go after supply):
- 8pylon
- 10gate
- 12forge
- 13pylon (at natural)
- 13zealot (you will have to cut the next probe for 3-4seconds usually)
- send probe out in time to arrive at natural just when you have 150minerals to place cannon
- at 400 you build a nexus
- gas
- 2nd zealot (gas and 2nd zealot might be swapped if zerg makes additional zerglings)
- pylon
- 2nd cannon
- core
|
On September 08 2011 20:13 Kiante wrote:
god i hate python. it still boggles my mind that protoss players host it. impossible pvz, impossible pvt, you're basically forced to cheese in both matchups.
conversely its pretty fun pvp, because the different spawn locations change the matchup so radically
I hate python too, ironically I normally get the highest winrate on it.
|
Australia7069 Posts
I guess when you encourage zergs to speedling allin and terrans to 6 fac you can blind counter it for EZPZ wins
|
so basically you allow the zerg to run into your main and rely on your first zealot to cope with the threat. Also rely exclusively on your scouting probe to alert you to throw more cannons down if needed.
Your counter to 12hatch is to send the first zealot out to harass, which may or may not get a drone, then you have to build a zealot zlot to remain safe which slows down everything. So it puts you at a disadvantage again.
You advocate putting down a super early 2nd forge for a wall instead of a core, if you scout...what? you cant possibly know if zerg will go lurkers or not at that point, and even if you did and walled with the forge instead of core that would put you at a disadvantage because of the useless building delaying your tech.
The same problem could occur with any expansion opening if your probe dies and you don't see it in time and hence cannot put probes in order to prevent a runby. In my case I can send 1 to 2 zealots after them to keep one on each side of my economyline in order for them to lower the harrass there and go to the buildings he will focus instead then (ofc probes would help those zealots, but having a zealot with your probes is always better than not having one with them).
yeah a zergling runby can occur with any expansion opening too, but its not actually a problem if you have a wall.
the zerg has 4 main options for runbys in the early game: initial lings without speed, initial lings with speed, later lings soon as speed finishes after lair, and later lings soon as speed finishes with the first 100 gas.
with the first two options, in regular FE toss will block with a few probes in a 1 or 2 hex opening until both cannons are finished, or a couple zealots are built to complete the wall. You cant do this, because your base is so open youd have to pull more than half your mining probes for a complete block. All you can do is pull some at the last second and either block him at your ramp, if you have one, or back up the zealots by your cannon. A futile effort unless you see it coming.
If zerg goes standard 3hatch lair with speed after, this speed upgrade is still faster than your wall is to being completed. Usually running by at this point is a terrible idea because the wall is completed with 3 zealots, so its reserved for countering when the protoss overcommits with early zealot harassment. In your case, you are still open even if you kept all your zealots at home, zerg can run in. Given the timing of his spire in this situation, zerg can choose to followup with mutas and deny you cannons in your main until they arrive, or swing back and take out your natural cannons for the same effect.
if zerg decides to all in with the last option (speed w/ first 100gas), you really have to throw down more cannons asap to not die, and bring many probes to block as well. you have to overcommit because you are too vulnerable during this timing without having a wall, and by doing so you allow the zerg a ton of flexibility. His speed first is no longer all in, because with the additional cannons and probes not mining, your tech is slowed considerably. You also have no way of scouting after, and have to continue putting up more defenses to remain safe, while zerg can switch back to drones and go for any number of builds. 3hatch Lurker, for example, if he notices that you used your cybernetics core to try and put up a wall.
with regular FE the above doesnt happen, protoss sees the early ling speed and lings (as would you), throws down a couple cannons and continues mining. He has 2 zealots to block his wall, so whenever the attack comes the zerg has to break them (attacking each with only 2-3 lings max at a time because they only have that much surface area available) before posing a threat. Plenty of time for protoss to bring all the probes he needs to keep blocking the tiny opening and prevent any damage. After the first wave is repelled its gg, because his tech is only slightly delayed, and the only thing that died would have been a couple zealots and a probe or 2.
As you can see, im still not a fan of the build because its not safe, its inflexible, and doesnt appear to give you any advantage. You said you dont harass with the first zealots because its ez to get countered. Then whats the point of having the early zealots? What advantage does it give you over a normal FE, or over the gateway first build where you actually wallin, to make up for all the disadvantages?
|
10387 Posts
On September 08 2011 11:47 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 10:54 ArvickHero wrote:
economy in PvZ doesn't mean squat if your tech is late and you miss all the timings
your build is inflexible compared to Forge-FE, (12 scout seriously?) and your main point that it beats 5pool? Standard Forge FE will beat 5pool 90% of the time, and put you at a considerable advantage if you play correctly. Also, standard forge timing is 11/12, not 10, and to use Stork as an example ......
I'd honestly like to see you play against someone who knows how to play 9pool (speed or no speed) well, you say that in Forge-FE 1 cannon will die to 6-8 lings too, but for that reason Protosses will almost always make 2 cannons against 6+ lings anyways (unless map choke is small), whereas you will only have 1 cannon+zealot with no simcity, so Zerg can just run past anyways and wreak havoc in your main, and god help you if it's speedlings.
also regarding the Gate-FE, it isn't specific only to Jangbi, but instead is map/choke-specific, to New Bloody Ridge. Free showed it off first during the SPL Playoffs, and almost all PvZs have used that opening on NBR since.
possibly my opinion can be changed if I see some replays, but I doubt it. You can use it on other maps too. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/77920_great_vs_sHy (being used on CB is actually pretty big since that means you can apply it to other similar maps ie FS) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/79316_Neo.G_Soulkey_vs_sHy (gate in main since it's impossible to wall off on empire fully as there are always holes) It's also been around in the foreign scene for ages thanks to Shauni. He uses it a lot on HBR and also other maps like Tau. http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43569 http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43570 (earlier tech makes fighting vs 3hat hydra a lot easier) You don't have to make it your standard as forge FE is still great but you can't understate how this can throw zergs off. You can really catch zergs offguard who just blindly expect forge fe and destroy them. (See how Soulkey gets punished for 2 ling heavy droning.)
Yes, it's a very good surprise tactic on maps like Circuit Breaker and EotS for those who have never faced it before, but it's nowhere near as safe and powerful as it is on NBR, due to the fact you can walloff with one Zealot to prevent runbys. I didn't watch the game vs SK (running on tethered internet atm, too much of a hassle to watch videos), but I did watch the game vs Great and it was fairly obvious that Great had never faced that strategy before, and reacted in the worst ways possible (probably you can get an even better reaction out of D-C- zergs lol)
A proper response to Gate-FE is demonstrated in Movie vs Hoejja (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/76878_HoeJJa_vs_Movie/vod), where a runby of 5 Zerglings incurs SERIOUS damage, even with 2 Zealots to help defend. Granted, Movie positioned his Zealots wrong, but on most maps that have chokes too large to perfectly wall-off w/ 1 unit, trying to prevent a runby with Gate-FE is a huge hassle and the advantage goes to the Zerg. However, it is very strong on NBR styled chokes, La Mancha and FS have these same chokes at top right/bot-left that allow for Gate-FE
dRaw I just watched the replay you provided, and it pretty much confirms my thoughts on why this build is bad. The thing is, the speedling rush wasn't even executed very cleanly to begin with (overpool? late speed? speedling rushes already have a somewhat small timing window against normal Forge-FE in the first place..), and yet it died really badly. Even with an overpool, Zerg would just runby the natural and kill more than enough probes.
If you're going to open up Gate-Forge, why not just build it at the natural for simcity, save yourself 100 minerals that you waste on a second pylon you clearly could cut out for a faster cannon or Zealot.
Don't play this build as described in the OP, unless you like handicaps or something. If you want to play Gate-first type openings, go 2 Gate, 1 Gate Tech, or Gate-FE (map-dependent). Otherwise just go Forge-FE. This build isn't even very safe to begin with, at least against a competent Zerg player.
|
|
|
On September 08 2011 19:47 gu-val wrote:Depends on map. On FS, where you can make a tight wall with 2 buildings and 1 zealot, runby is somewhat hard to execute. On python it is much easier, for example. I can remember the times when every ZvP was played via zergling runby, successful or not.
Its true on some mpas its harder, but then again, what matters is the probe that is scouting....
If you get enoguth information its never an issue. However, if your enemie tries to go with his first 6 lings for a runby (not trying to kill your probe)* Then you just drill some probes timing it so he will be forced to either lose 3 lings to try to pass or lose 2 lings to fall back.
Important: (*) Your scouting must be effective (after pylon, see if clsoe positions overlord is coming with 10th probe), and leave crosspositions for last as its longest way for any rush.
I am not saying its "easy", but 7 probes drilled will stop 6 lings on ramp + canon, and if 6 pooled by zerg, you mgiht even defend the canon from the lings (at your main ofc).
|
On September 09 2011 02:25 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 20:13 Kiante wrote:
god i hate python. it still boggles my mind that protoss players host it. impossible pvz, impossible pvt, you're basically forced to cheese in both matchups.
conversely its pretty fun pvp, because the different spawn locations change the matchup so radically I hate python too, ironically I normally get the highest winrate on it.
I kinda like the map for pvz, its small enoguht so the zerg cant have you running around while he hits all your bases at once with some ling/defiler :D.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
