When protoss fast gases against a zerg and opts for an early starport they essentially have 1 of 2 options. either getting a scout or a corsair. Obviously corsairs are picked much more often. I was wondering...
What is the cost of a scout vs the cost of a corsair? What is the difference in damage and damage type done (air wise) from a scout and a corsair How much longer does it take for a scout to build? Exactly how much slower is a scout movement wise?
The obvious advantage of getting a scout is that it does deal damage to overlords faster with it's missels (no splash) and can shoot ground. This means if a zerg player decides to get an evolution chamber instead of getting hydralisks to defend from an early starport opening the scout has the option of shooting at drones or buildings.
Something im really begining to wonder is when is it better to get a Scout instead of a Corsair based on the map, position, and their opening.
For instance in closer spots would it be a better idea to get a Scout (assuming your opening with a fast starport) since the distance the scout has to travel is minimal?
Would it be better to get a Scout on neostalgia where the zerg dose not have a second gas natural and therefor is much more likely to get an evolution chamber if he expands
If a zerg decides to 2 hatch in main would it be a better idea to get a corsair since their would be less of a chance of getting an evo chamber etc.
What are some basic rules we can come up with so we have a better understanding of wich of these two to open with when put in diffrent situations.
On March 09 2005 10:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: corsair is better because it's faster.. scouting is more important than the odd overlord kill, and a den deters scout damage anyway
which means all the overlords you'll kill will be floating around the map, and corsairs can kill those anyway
yeah i agree, and u can always use Disruption Web if the game gets very long
scouts are a "surprise tactic" so you can't use it frequently but when you mix it in against odd opponents who don't know your style they can be very very effective.
the scout isn't worthwhile unless you catch at least a few drones, so the best case scenario is that you completely surprise him, eat a few drones, and take down 2 or 3 ols. he will naturally go hydra and if you can get a timing rush with around 4 zeals plus a goon or so you can do some early damage since most z's won't sunken when they see you went 1 gate or you're guarding your ramp with a cannon.
the scout opening is similar in principle to a sair to fast +1 speed zeals from 3 gates, except that your first rush with a few zeals and a goon or so comes faster, without legs and upgrade.
nal_ra vs july on raid assault (i forgot which league, it was a team league i believe) is a perfect example.
On March 09 2005 10:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: corsair is better because it's faster.. scouting is more important than the odd overlord kill, and a den deters scout damage anyway
which means all the overlords you'll kill will be floating around the map, and corsairs can kill those anyway
i disagree strongly
both are extremely effective in different circumstances
Yea sure corsairs are faster and can scout better, but scouts can be extremely effective if the zerg tries to tech and get away with 1-2 hydras
i'd say go for closer positions on temple w/ the scout maybe? i'm not sure. Scouts can be used very effectively tho
sairs can provide scouting throughout the game though and scouts can't. i tihnk unless you're certain you can do damage with a scout you should avoid it. if you go for a very fast stargate build and have good probe micro you should be able to keep your probe alive long enough to see if they're waiting on den, getting evo, etc etc
On March 09 2005 10:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: corsair is better because it's faster.. scouting is more important than the odd overlord kill, and a den deters scout damage anyway
which means all the overlords you'll kill will be floating around the map, and corsairs can kill those anyway
i disagree strongly
both are extremely effective in different circumstances
Yea sure corsairs are faster and can scout better, but scouts can be extremely effective if the zerg tries to tech and get away with 1-2 hydras
i'd say go for closer positions on temple w/ the scout maybe? i'm not sure. Scouts can be used very effectively tho
definitely true
but throw in the fact that if you're going 1gate star you arent going to know whether or not your star will do any damage until you actually get there. Scout and Sair are both effective in different situations, but the scout situation is pretty specific. Scouts are generally cumbersome whereas corsairs are already really fast (and so, good for looking around as long as its alive), which makes it better in situations where 1gate star was ineffective
i think that makes it edge out the scout by a bit. I agree that really close positions (like 12v3 where the scout's slow movement doesnt make you lose the opportunity for a drone kill or what have you) can make the scout really really powerful.
As a general rule I think it's always better to assume the zerg will be prepared if you 1gate star, and make a corsair instead of a scout, because you'll still be able to kill overlords
And scouts are much more expensive, delaying the segue into templar tech
If you go sair, you can build your citadel just as the stargate is finishing. If you go scout, you have to wait until after starting the scout to build your citadel.
Sair is best for scouting and one ol kill. Scouts are best to throw off the Zerg, as they now will have to deal with drone kills and whatnot. Scouts can be terribly distracting.
All I can say is only 1gate star if you don't see a third hatch go down. 3hatch = powerful econ and unit pump. 1gate star works if they 2hatch, as you can see what tech they are going for and know exactly how to counter it. After your star, go forge or citadel, and then expo or temp, respectively, and depending on what they do. If you see a den and a lair, I would go for a forge to cannon my choke for lurks and just expo and go 7gate goon/zeal/temp/ob while taking an island and dt dropping a main or an expo of theirs.
I actually kinda like when the Z goes spores to counter what they expect to be a Sair coming out of that fast stargate. Usually they do it when they don't want to get gas for hydra/den and usually don't put their spores next to their min line. As such, when that Scout pops out surprisingly (unless you do it a lot) the Z is ill-prepared for it. You can probably catch a lord or two and probably pick off drones from as it takes more than one spore to protect an entire mineral line from a Scout (I think). In the time it takes for the Z to put up an extractor, den, and a hydra or two, you could have done a lot of damage. If they decide to pop down a couple of spore at each of their bases then I think you've still won a big advantage in their expenditure. You might even be able to take them out with limited ground forces if they lose too much or spend too much on anti-air.
Mostly though the Scout throws the Z off their game and that alone can be worth the extra resources. Personally I don't really think the Sair's extra speed helps me scout that much better, but that's just me. Of course if they had been going for hydra already then you might have shot yourself in the foot.
EPT
