When protoss fast gases against a zerg and opts for an early starport they essentially have 1 of 2 options. either getting a scout or a corsair. Obviously corsairs are picked much more often. I was wondering...
What is the cost of a scout vs the cost of a corsair? What is the difference in damage and damage type done (air wise) from a scout and a corsair How much longer does it take for a scout to build? Exactly how much slower is a scout movement wise?
The obvious advantage of getting a scout is that it does deal damage to overlords faster with it's missels (no splash) and can shoot ground. This means if a zerg player decides to get an evolution chamber instead of getting hydralisks to defend from an early starport opening the scout has the option of shooting at drones or buildings.
Something im really begining to wonder is when is it better to get a Scout instead of a Corsair based on the map, position, and their opening.
For instance in closer spots would it be a better idea to get a Scout (assuming your opening with a fast starport) since the distance the scout has to travel is minimal?
Would it be better to get a Scout on neostalgia where the zerg dose not have a second gas natural and therefor is much more likely to get an evolution chamber if he expands
If a zerg decides to 2 hatch in main would it be a better idea to get a corsair since their would be less of a chance of getting an evo chamber etc.
What are some basic rules we can come up with so we have a better understanding of wich of these two to open with when put in diffrent situations.
On March 09 2005 10:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: corsair is better because it's faster.. scouting is more important than the odd overlord kill, and a den deters scout damage anyway
which means all the overlords you'll kill will be floating around the map, and corsairs can kill those anyway
yeah i agree, and u can always use Disruption Web if the game gets very long
scouts are a "surprise tactic" so you can't use it frequently but when you mix it in against odd opponents who don't know your style they can be very very effective.
the scout isn't worthwhile unless you catch at least a few drones, so the best case scenario is that you completely surprise him, eat a few drones, and take down 2 or 3 ols. he will naturally go hydra and if you can get a timing rush with around 4 zeals plus a goon or so you can do some early damage since most z's won't sunken when they see you went 1 gate or you're guarding your ramp with a cannon.
the scout opening is similar in principle to a sair to fast +1 speed zeals from 3 gates, except that your first rush with a few zeals and a goon or so comes faster, without legs and upgrade.
nal_ra vs july on raid assault (i forgot which league, it was a team league i believe) is a perfect example.
On March 09 2005 10:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: corsair is better because it's faster.. scouting is more important than the odd overlord kill, and a den deters scout damage anyway
which means all the overlords you'll kill will be floating around the map, and corsairs can kill those anyway
i disagree strongly
both are extremely effective in different circumstances
Yea sure corsairs are faster and can scout better, but scouts can be extremely effective if the zerg tries to tech and get away with 1-2 hydras
i'd say go for closer positions on temple w/ the scout maybe? i'm not sure. Scouts can be used very effectively tho
sairs can provide scouting throughout the game though and scouts can't. i tihnk unless you're certain you can do damage with a scout you should avoid it. if you go for a very fast stargate build and have good probe micro you should be able to keep your probe alive long enough to see if they're waiting on den, getting evo, etc etc
On March 09 2005 10:31 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: corsair is better because it's faster.. scouting is more important than the odd overlord kill, and a den deters scout damage anyway
which means all the overlords you'll kill will be floating around the map, and corsairs can kill those anyway
i disagree strongly
both are extremely effective in different circumstances
Yea sure corsairs are faster and can scout better, but scouts can be extremely effective if the zerg tries to tech and get away with 1-2 hydras
i'd say go for closer positions on temple w/ the scout maybe? i'm not sure. Scouts can be used very effectively tho
definitely true
but throw in the fact that if you're going 1gate star you arent going to know whether or not your star will do any damage until you actually get there. Scout and Sair are both effective in different situations, but the scout situation is pretty specific. Scouts are generally cumbersome whereas corsairs are already really fast (and so, good for looking around as long as its alive), which makes it better in situations where 1gate star was ineffective
i think that makes it edge out the scout by a bit. I agree that really close positions (like 12v3 where the scout's slow movement doesnt make you lose the opportunity for a drone kill or what have you) can make the scout really really powerful.
As a general rule I think it's always better to assume the zerg will be prepared if you 1gate star, and make a corsair instead of a scout, because you'll still be able to kill overlords
And scouts are much more expensive, delaying the segue into templar tech
If you go sair, you can build your citadel just as the stargate is finishing. If you go scout, you have to wait until after starting the scout to build your citadel.
Sair is best for scouting and one ol kill. Scouts are best to throw off the Zerg, as they now will have to deal with drone kills and whatnot. Scouts can be terribly distracting.
All I can say is only 1gate star if you don't see a third hatch go down. 3hatch = powerful econ and unit pump. 1gate star works if they 2hatch, as you can see what tech they are going for and know exactly how to counter it. After your star, go forge or citadel, and then expo or temp, respectively, and depending on what they do. If you see a den and a lair, I would go for a forge to cannon my choke for lurks and just expo and go 7gate goon/zeal/temp/ob while taking an island and dt dropping a main or an expo of theirs.
I actually kinda like when the Z goes spores to counter what they expect to be a Sair coming out of that fast stargate. Usually they do it when they don't want to get gas for hydra/den and usually don't put their spores next to their min line. As such, when that Scout pops out surprisingly (unless you do it a lot) the Z is ill-prepared for it. You can probably catch a lord or two and probably pick off drones from as it takes more than one spore to protect an entire mineral line from a Scout (I think). In the time it takes for the Z to put up an extractor, den, and a hydra or two, you could have done a lot of damage. If they decide to pop down a couple of spore at each of their bases then I think you've still won a big advantage in their expenditure. You might even be able to take them out with limited ground forces if they lose too much or spend too much on anti-air.
Mostly though the Scout throws the Z off their game and that alone can be worth the extra resources. Personally I don't really think the Sair's extra speed helps me scout that much better, but that's just me. Of course if they had been going for hydra already then you might have shot yourself in the foot.
I want to make some corrections to those stats. Sairs are explosive. ROF(Cooldown) is 8 for a corsair and 30/22 (Ground/Air) for a Scout(lower is better). Scouts do not do 28 damage. They do 14x2 this means they do 14 damage twice. So armor is effected twice. For some reason though the attack ups count this already. So if it says 28+2 in the attack its really 15 twice. Moral of the story. Scouts are one of the worst units in the game. They aren't good vs Carriers as there 4 armor effects them twice. So what are they good for? The Stove or Drone harass. That is about it. If you ever need to know any stats for any units/buildings just ask me I know them all.
i only go scouts when i manage to keep my probe / other scout alive to see he is evo vs stargate(ov sees stargate) instead of den. Usually i citadel anyways and not stargate though.
as a zerg player i enjoy playing vs fast corsair and occaisonally fear playing vs fast scout.
1scout > 1 hydra.
So they need 2.
And who cares if a sair is faster? A scout still moves faster than a hydra, and spore colonies don't move. AND a scout kills overlords faster. So you have a sair, which, if they have a single hydra, cannot kill overlords. And you have scout, which can take out the hydra and then take out overlords - or - can take out an overlord, survive, and go harass some more.
You people make it sound like just because a scout doesn't move as fast as a corsair that it can't scout at all. Go play 10 pvz, go scout every single game, save all 10 reps, and if you can show me a single rep where u can't scout both their main and expo without losing your scout, i will be shocked.
Gillette OGN Star league finals game 1 @Nostalgia Reach vs July is a good example of how to use scout in the early stage of game vs zerg he uses scout and kills some drones, then push with zealots, then use dark templer to slow the timing of zerg's attack and expand. Later he makes corsair from the starport using corsair-darktempler. kool game to watch. in my opinion corsair is better but scout sometimes can be a surprise for zerg and really annoy them.
Interesting comments guys... so what do you think about getting a scout vs zerg on maps without a gas expo such as neostalgia versus a map such as lost temple where your expansion has a gas nat. When is the scout stronger to rush with?
On March 09 2005 20:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: as a zerg player who knows 1gate star is coming (overlord sacrifice? and if they're retarded they dont even make a goon... come on)
i think making only 1 hydra is retarded, and making spores is even worse
How exactly do u counter sairs and/or scout without making a hydra or a spore?
Most zerg players make drones when they see a stargate opening. So either they make 1-4 hydra or a spore at their choke.
On March 09 2005 12:26 uhjoo wrote: scouts are a "surprise tactic" so you can't use it frequently but when you mix it in against odd opponents who don't know your style they can be very very effective.
the scout isn't worthwhile unless you catch at least a few drones, so the best case scenario is that you completely surprise him, eat a few drones, and take down 2 or 3 ols. he will naturally go hydra and if you can get a timing rush with around 4 zeals plus a goon or so you can do some early damage since most z's won't sunken when they see you went 1 gate or you're guarding your ramp with a cannon.
the scout opening is similar in principle to a sair to fast +1 speed zeals from 3 gates, except that your first rush with a few zeals and a goon or so comes faster, without legs and upgrade.
nal_ra vs july on raid assault (i forgot which league, it was a team league i believe) is a perfect example.
i prefer a scout cos if he goes hydra and you attack with 3-4 zeals and a goon you can pimp maybe 3 ol kills in the time he takes to get the hydra to defend offf your army, but a sair kills much slower so you'll never get more than 2 ols and it can die too fast to concentrated fire cos of lower hitpoints. Then and again, if u think he's a muta player, get a sair cos you're going to want more of them vs his mutas (unless u prefer archons or whatever).
edit: but obviously i don't try that every game....
On March 09 2005 20:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: as a zerg player who knows 1gate star is coming (overlord sacrifice? and if they're retarded they dont even make a goon... come on)
i think making only 1 hydra is retarded, and making spores is even worse
How exactly do u counter sairs and/or scout without making a hydra or a spore?
Most zerg players make drones when they see a stargate opening. So either they make 1-4 hydra or a spore at their choke.
1 hatch scourge? xDDDD
only one hydra
this means i think that going 2hatch spire when i know they're going 1gate star is retarded
On March 09 2005 20:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: as a zerg player who knows 1gate star is coming (overlord sacrifice? and if they're retarded they dont even make a goon... come on)
i think making only 1 hydra is retarded, and making spores is even worse
How exactly do u counter sairs and/or scout without making a hydra or a spore?
Most zerg players make drones when they see a stargate opening. So either they make 1-4 hydra or a spore at their choke.
1 hatch scourge? xDDDD
only one hydra
this means i think that going 2hatch spire when i know they're going 1gate star is retarded
reading comprehension is strong
How is that lack of reading comprehension? Nobody (rarely) goes Hydra Den, and Lair, building only 1 Hydra for Corsair protection with the intention of going Spire. A more likely intention with only 1 Hydra out is to pump drones and go one base Lurkers. This is because Toss has already invested in a Stargate and will most likely be going for Templar tech next instead of Robo Tech. The Lurkers let your contain last for a longer time (or if you're lucky get inside Toss' base) and let you double expand.
I'm just posting this because it pissed me off that you say "reading comprehension is strong". I only build ONE Hydra versus Stargate tech when I one base, and I don't have a single replay of me rushing Spire after doing that. So I don't know if I'm not following you (possible) or you're just an asshole (also possible).
and mora mentioned the zerg having to build a second hydra to defend against scouts?
another hydra vs an opening that doesnt do any damage when a second hydra is made hmm.. who's ahead?
we can agree that a star opening cant do any damage to a prepared zerg (inside the zerg base).. but scout has no applications after the opening... Well it does, but the corsair does it better -_-
yup my zerg perspective too.. i like NEVER lose when they open with that.. and VERY rarely has a protoss been able to get past the 15 min mark against me... but then again sair to reaver or sair to zeal rush can really catch a zerg off guard... that's really all this strat is for.. catching the zerg off guard
ok guys well lets assume the protoss player is actually good : P im still more interested in weather a scout is stronger on maps where the zerg has no expansion that has a gas natural... what do you guys think of MAPS WITH NO GAS NATURAL and using scouts.
On March 10 2005 11:32 MyLostTemple wrote: ok guys well lets assume the protoss player is actually good : P im still more interested in weather a scout is stronger on maps where the zerg has no expansion that has a gas natural... what do you guys think of MAPS WITH NO GAS NATURAL and using scouts.
it's probably less effective, b/c most zergs with no gas nats go ling lurk, or even 3/4 hatch hydra or ling hydra so even if you "surprise" them with scouts, they'll probably already have a den and some hydra.
On March 09 2005 20:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: as a zerg player who knows 1gate star is coming (overlord sacrifice? and if they're retarded they dont even make a goon... come on)
i think making only 1 hydra is retarded, and making spores is even worse
How exactly do u counter sairs and/or scout without making a hydra or a spore?
Most zerg players make drones when they see a stargate opening. So either they make 1-4 hydra or a spore at their choke.
1 hatch scourge? xDDDD
only one hydra
this means i think that going 2hatch spire when i know they're going 1gate star is retarded
reading comprehension is strong
If you have an expansion and a main base and you know that scouts move faster than upupgraded hydras, than u need 2 hydras minimum per base. that's 4 hydralisks. And that's just to protect your mineral line. If you have a single overlord that is outside your mineral range, the scout will kill the overlord before dieing. Even vs 2 hydralisks.
A corsair on the other hand cannot kill even a single overlord if even a single hydra is attacking it.
And if im going scout, its usually with the intention of urging you to go hydra. It is much easier to adapt to a zergs play when you are forcing them into a situation. Sair does not force anything. Scouts do.
But on the whole, i am not a big fan 1stargate opening. However, i do feel that 9 times out of 10, if you ARE going to make a starport as fast tech, that a scout is better. Map and positions and the zerg opening build are also obviously important.
Thansk to Chill for coming to save me. Chill and Steve, you are both some of my greatest bnet friends, so pls do not quabble.
briefly, scout is better if either he's unaware of the stargate or the stargate comes really fast, which forces him to go spore rather than hydra. so if he went spore and you went scout you can own his drones, works really well. sair is better if he has hydra or muta fast enough rather than spore, since obviously spore > sair.
If I buy over Blizzard, I will implement several changes. First, Infested Terran Splash Damage Range is increased to that of Reaver's Scarab. Second, Sunken Colonies be returned to 400 HP and 1 Armour. Third, Ultralisks gain base 3 Armour. I have my reasons for this, if anyone wishes to know, just reply here.
Infested Terrans also do full damage while under the Dark Swarm, instead of just Splash Damage.
One more thing: Zealots be returned to 80 HP and 80 Shields. And the Scourge should be slightly faster in speed, while the Sunken Colony's attack should be unaffected by Dark Swarm.
Perhaps have the Attack Upgrade of the Ultralisks be +4? Also, when a Scourge hits, the Unit automatically dies, instead of having a delay in the death animation. The Devourers have an Attack Range of 7, and the Scout has a Ground Attack value of 10, while gaining Detector for a Range of 6, after Researching Apial Sensors, at a cost of 200 Minerals and 200 Vespene Gas. The Scout's Sight Range is increased from 10 to 12 too with the Upgrade. Finally, the Overlord's Evolution, Antennae, costs 100 Minerals and 100 Vespene Gas.
How about Spawn Broodlings costing 125 Energy? And of course lifting the object limiter for the Valkyrie.
With the power of MPQ editing you can make all (most) of those changes come true! Overall the Scout is just underused because it's slow and expensive, and with PvZ you need a "scout" ASAP since zerglings are denying all of your scouting probes.
Since we're talking about scout vs corsairs, here's my buff that will never see the light of day:
I would make it a true "scout" by making it only cost 1 supply, cost 75/100. Half stats and build time. Ground attack halved (4 +1) changed to concussive. Air attack reduced (6x2 +2). Starts with speed and give it an upgrade that gives its ground attacks splash damage.
But I also feel bad for zerg so give hydras +1 air range with the range upgrade (yes the hydra can actually have separate ground/air attacks like the goliath). While I'm fantasizing zerg buffs I'd also like 125 energy broodlings to be cloaked, have 5 armor, and the number created is double the supply of the unit killed. Which wouldn't really change anything but would be cooler.
I can get behind your change aokces, although as you said it's never going to see the light of the day and I do think that is fair, because cmon BW is just awesome as is <3 Yeah sure maybe some races have advantages over others in general but that can all be balanced with different means i.e. maps. As for the thread bump... Let's not talk about that, but you really can see what race he is playing :D
I thought scouts should have came with speed for quite some time. Jaeyun mentioned that the speed upgrade should have came via the cybernetics core and that makes more sense. Imagine being able to one shot drones with a 5 +1 scout timing that doesn't take ages to build because of the fleet beacon/speed upgrade and time and cost? I do a scout opening after gateway expand vs zerg but it comes a bit too slow. 6 of them with speed and +1 attack usually comes right before 9 minutes.
famous game of a scout opening for all the immediate naysayers; no doubt its less efficient than a sair opening, but one should never dismiss the power of novelty.
How about giving it some way to have or use detection? Adding a stargate detector in SC2 was great cause you were no longer forced down a tech path just for seeing invisible units. I think this change would have very interesting results.
On January 17 2019 02:35 EndingLife wrote: I thought scouts should have came with speed for quite some time. Jaeyun mentioned that the speed upgrade should have came via the cybernetics core and that makes more sense. Imagine being able to one shot drones with a 5 +1 scout timing that doesn't take ages to build because of the fleet beacon/speed upgrade and time and cost? I do a scout opening after gateway expand vs zerg but it comes a bit too slow. 6 of them with speed and +1 attack usually comes right before 9 minutes.
why would you attack with 6 scouts? 7 is the magic number. (oneshotting overlord is way better than oneshotting drones)
EPT
