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On June 29 2011 11:48 saritenite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 11:00 Jragon wrote:On June 27 2011 13:03 Zyferous wrote:
The ball effect also applies to marines, and marines have it better due to their higher dps and the medics constantly healing them. Also marines essentially cost half as much as a hydralisk.
Lurkers are immortal under swarm because burrow doesn't allow them to take splash damage. Hydralisks, on the other hand are not burrowed and still melt to tanks even underneath a swarm.... I remember reading a thread a while ago where this got discussed; doesn't swarm negate the direct damage of a tank but the splash damage still applies? This is why you see everything but a single lurker die to tanks under swarm, but that lurker survives under constant tank fire until the swarm expires. Same deal for archon damage under swarm. You are right, but it's also because burrowed units do not take damage from splash. I'm pretty sure tank splash also does damage to the primary target, though I can't remember. But even if burrowed lurkers were close to each other under the swarm they would not take the splash damage.
It's the other way around. The direct damage still applies if the tank shot lands directly on a burrowed lurker, but the splash damage is ignored so the lurker that was actually targeted won't take any damage.
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Okay, for those of you saying that this build is weak, why don't you try if for yourselves? People are saying MM shreds hydras lol? This build is not weak at all, and is viable till the B level. I have used it so many times because it is an all around, SAFE BUILD. Just think about it:
-Terran goes standard 1 barracks fe. You can wait till terran tries to move out. By the time he gets 1 control group, you will have 2 and a half almost 3 control groups. Test it, after 1 mm group moves out you will shread them and you can expo all over the map till mass tanks come. Heck, you can even hydra bust the nat, get it over quickly.
-Terran goes mass wraiths, no problem here. In fact pros put down a den when they see wraiths sometimes.
-Terran goes vulture/wraith transition, again no problem same as above
-Terran goes mass goliaths or something, hydra is the perfect counter
The only 2 (rare nowadays) builds this would be really hard to use on would be a 2 racks no expo build and a tank vulture mine build. Otherwise, you are good until you get to B with this.
The only thing I would add is a +1 ranged attacks. Why not, it is cheap and easy to upgrade. And you have to realize how mobile you are with this. You don't have to burrow/unborrow, attack at right time with lings, etc. This build is strong.
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So... what if the Terrans start scouting at B level? Will they still trying making wraiths against the hard counter to wraiths?
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On June 30 2011 01:58 Keftes wrote:
Okay, for those of you saying that this build is weak, why don't you try if for yourselves? People are saying MM shreds hydras lol? This build is not weak at all, and is viable till the B level. I have used it so many times because it is an all around, SAFE BUILD. Just think about it:
-Terran goes standard 1 barracks fe. You can wait till terran tries to move out. By the time he gets 1 control group, you will have 2 and a half almost 3 control groups. Test it, after 1 mm group moves out you will shread them and you can expo all over the map till mass tanks come. Heck, you can even hydra bust the nat, get it over quickly.
-Terran goes mass wraiths, no problem here. In fact pros put down a den when they see wraiths sometimes.
-Terran goes vulture/wraith transition, again no problem same as above
-Terran goes mass goliaths or something, hydra is the perfect counter
The only 2 (rare nowadays) builds this would be really hard to use on would be a 2 racks no expo build and a tank vulture mine build. Otherwise, you are good until you get to B with this.
The only thing I would add is a +1 ranged attacks. Why not, it is cheap and easy to upgrade. And you have to realize how mobile you are with this. You don't have to burrow/unborrow, attack at right time with lings, etc. This build is strong.
lol 3 groups by the time he moves out? So when do you make drones? :/
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On June 30 2011 01:58 Keftes wrote:
Okay, for those of you saying that this build is weak, why don't you try if for yourselves? People are saying MM shreds hydras lol? This build is not weak at all, and is viable till the B level. I have used it so many times because it is an all around, SAFE BUILD. Just think about it:
-Terran goes standard 1 barracks fe. You can wait till terran tries to move out. By the time he gets 1 control group, you will have 2 and a half almost 3 control groups. Test it, after 1 mm group moves out you will shread them and you can expo all over the map till mass tanks come. Heck, you can even hydra bust the nat, get it over quickly.
-Terran goes mass wraiths, no problem here. In fact pros put down a den when they see wraiths sometimes.
-Terran goes vulture/wraith transition, again no problem same as above
-Terran goes mass goliaths or something, hydra is the perfect counter
The only 2 (rare nowadays) builds this would be really hard to use on would be a 2 racks no expo build and a tank vulture mine build. Otherwise, you are good until you get to B with this.
The only thing I would add is a +1 ranged attacks. Why not, it is cheap and easy to upgrade. And you have to realize how mobile you are with this. You don't have to burrow/unborrow, attack at right time with lings, etc. This build is strong.
rep please of zerg B level doing this build and actually winning against T
or you actually doing this build and droning up as well as having 2 or 3 control groups of hydras to "bust" out their natrual
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On June 30 2011 01:58 Keftes wrote:
Okay, for those of you saying that this build is weak, why don't you try if for yourselves? People are saying MM shreds hydras lol? This build is not weak at all, and is viable till the B level. I have used it so many times because it is an all around, SAFE BUILD. Just think about it:
-Terran goes standard 1 barracks fe. You can wait till terran tries to move out. By the time he gets 1 control group, you will have 2 and a half almost 3 control groups. Test it, after 1 mm group moves out you will shread them and you can expo all over the map till mass tanks come. Heck, you can even hydra bust the nat, get it over quickly.
-Terran goes mass wraiths, no problem here. In fact pros put down a den when they see wraiths sometimes.
-Terran goes vulture/wraith transition, again no problem same as above
-Terran goes mass goliaths or something, hydra is the perfect counter
The only 2 (rare nowadays) builds this would be really hard to use on would be a 2 racks no expo build and a tank vulture mine build. Otherwise, you are good until you get to B with this.
The only thing I would add is a +1 ranged attacks. Why not, it is cheap and easy to upgrade. And you have to realize how mobile you are with this. You don't have to burrow/unborrow, attack at right time with lings, etc. This build is strong.
Do your Terran opponents stay on 1 barracks for 15 minutes or something? What kind of awful player lets a Zerg get hydra range, speed, and +1 and still be outnumbered?
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On June 30 2011 01:58 Keftes wrote:
Okay, for those of you saying that this build is weak, why don't you try if for yourselves? People are saying MM shreds hydras lol? This build is not weak at all, and is viable till the B level. I have used it so many times because it is an all around, SAFE BUILD. Just think about it:
-Terran goes standard 1 barracks fe. You can wait till terran tries to move out. By the time he gets 1 control group, you will have 2 and a half almost 3 control groups. Test it, after 1 mm group moves out you will shread them and you can expo all over the map till mass tanks come. Heck, you can even hydra bust the nat, get it over quickly.
-Terran goes mass wraiths, no problem here. In fact pros put down a den when they see wraiths sometimes.
-Terran goes vulture/wraith transition, again no problem same as above
-Terran goes mass goliaths or something, hydra is the perfect counter
The only 2 (rare nowadays) builds this would be really hard to use on would be a 2 racks no expo build and a tank vulture mine build. Otherwise, you are good until you get to B with this.
The only thing I would add is a +1 ranged attacks. Why not, it is cheap and easy to upgrade. And you have to realize how mobile you are with this. You don't have to burrow/unborrow, attack at right time with lings, etc. This build is strong.
Your entire post is based on the assumption that Terran doesn't scout, at all, then blunders his MMs into your army and never throws down a factory to beat your hydras which have apparently been upgrading for a long time now so he's had all day to see them. How does this even work?
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this strategy (pure hydras, no lurkers no lings) really only works when the person u are playing are clearly way under your level
i saw a funny strategy in the replay about a year ago where a guy went pure hydras against mass bio with tanks and decided to try it out
i really had to rely on denying terran scouting, sneaking 2 extra expansions to get the economy for the upgrades, getting enough hydras. some guy said the zerg can get 2-3 control groups faster than terran can get 1 of bio, thats impossible. it's like the other way around if you decide to go on 2 bases (u will spend so much on upgrades and you will have a much worse lategame economy)
having said that, its really fun when it works and hydras are easier to form an arc than bio. with superior upgrades and if both the players have 3-4 control groups of armies, the hydras will win even if terran has around no more than 5 tanks.
incorporating a lot of zerglings into your army will help, and also in small numbers, you can also micro 8~ hydras to snipe a marine in 1 hit, back, and again
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You said this build works vs B level? Nononono, you must post reps with crazy assumptions like that
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What has brood war turned into.... 
Ok, I'll elaborate.
Hydras are less mobile than marines. They have a tiny window where their speed upgrade finishes before stim, but certainly not before any attack/weapon upgrades. It takes 4 hydras (3 technically, but you can't really pull that off) to barely focus down a marine being healed, so for every medic of 50/25 you realistically need 5 extra hydras.
Essentially, all that gas is better spent getting yourself mobility (mutas) or hard counter/defense (lurker).
Later on, if you have swarm/plague, hydras are good because they are ranged and protected by swarms, but otherwise....stick with speedlings.
Fun fact: crackling > 1 hydra. pair of speedlings likewise, stimmed marine....don't quite recall, but you get the picture. Their role is not against light mobile ranged units
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On June 26 2011 15:02 Grobyc wrote:
A good Terran won't let you catch him out of position and unstimmed. MnM rips apart mass hydra unless you have lurker support, and tanks destroy both hydras and lurkers when he has 3+.
Not having mutas out puts absolutely no pressure on the Terran as well. He can simply sit in his base until he has 5ish tanks and then push out and kill you.
Hydralurk can be viable late game, but even then it's still only really seen against a SK Terran (no tanks) because tanks still rip shit apart, unless you have insane defiler usage and the map permits it.
This might work on players who have bad macro in the lower tanks, but I see you running in to a lot of trouble once you get to D+/C-.
This build simply puts you at a huge disadvantage as an opener. Like I said, hydralurk can be viable late game, but that's something you transition in to. Lair units are absolutely necessary to deal with Terran mid game.
The only time hydralurker really realistically works, is if they do the very rare(atleast from my experience) skip tanks straight into SK terran Nada style.
But since most terrans wont do this, i suggest just doing lurker ling till you get better at it.
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I think 2 Hatch Hydralisk is a good counter to 14 CC where Terran are forced to stay behind the bunker and you can't really burst the Bunker with Zerglings only so use Hydralisks to hit it by getting range and then move in with Speedlings. But come on, what are the chances that the Terran would go 14CC more than half of the time? Am I right? + Show Spoiler +
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On June 30 2011 22:28 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 15:02 Grobyc wrote:
A good Terran won't let you catch him out of position and unstimmed. MnM rips apart mass hydra unless you have lurker support, and tanks destroy both hydras and lurkers when he has 3+.
Not having mutas out puts absolutely no pressure on the Terran as well. He can simply sit in his base until he has 5ish tanks and then push out and kill you.
Hydralurk can be viable late game, but even then it's still only really seen against a SK Terran (no tanks) because tanks still rip shit apart, unless you have insane defiler usage and the map permits it.
This might work on players who have bad macro in the lower tanks, but I see you running in to a lot of trouble once you get to D+/C-.
This build simply puts you at a huge disadvantage as an opener. Like I said, hydralurk can be viable late game, but that's something you transition in to. Lair units are absolutely necessary to deal with Terran mid game. The only time hydralurker really realistically works, is if they do the very rare(atleast from my experience) skip tanks straight into SK terran Nada style. But since most terrans wont do this, i suggest just doing lurker ling till you get better at it.
Even against SK Terran I still think mixing hydras into the unit composition sucks until after you get defilers out. Hydras can have a place in standad bio ZvT even when the Terran starts stacking up tanks as Jaedong and Action has shown in a number of games, but it always happens after defilers are out. In games where the Zerg starts using hydras pre-defiler, even when the Terran is going SK Terran, the Zerg often just loses even if he entered into his composition from an advantage. Hydras are only useful against bio post-hive.
The only really viable way of entering into the lategame without getting defilers at one of the standard timings seems to be going Crazy Zerg against standard bio.
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I will try to post replays for evidence soon...
You will be surprised how fast you can get 2 control groups of hydras. In fact, by standard muta timing, you will have about 1 and a half groups of hydras with both upgrades range and speed with +1 almost half way. Trick is to 3 hatch, then drone, with a late 2nd gas (not as fast as you would take it with mutas) You will have a surplus of minerals and enough gas to upgrade and make hydras at the same time.
Again, I'll try to get a replay up.
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On June 30 2011 23:50 Keftes wrote:
I will try to post replays for evidence soon...
You will be surprised how fast you can get 2 control groups of hydras. In fact, by standard muta timing, you will have about 1 and a half groups of hydras with both upgrades range and speed with +1 almost half way. Trick is to 3 hatch, then drone, with a late 2nd gas (not as fast as you would take it with mutas) You will have a surplus of minerals and enough gas to upgrade and make hydras at the same time.
Again, I'll try to get a replay up.
But by standard 3 hatch muta timing, terran will most likely to have 1 or maybe 1 and 1/2 group of marine pumping from 2-4 barracks (depending on build) with tanks, and +1 weapon researching. you won't be able bust their natrual with the build assuming they built 2 bunkers after seeing hydralisk den with their scan.
By the time you get your 3rd gas, terran will just shred your hydra with 2-3 groups of rines with 3-5 tanks
But then again, i'm only D player Terran, so any higher rank, feel free to correct me 
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On July 01 2011 04:50 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 23:50 Keftes wrote:
I will try to post replays for evidence soon...
You will be surprised how fast you can get 2 control groups of hydras. In fact, by standard muta timing, you will have about 1 and a half groups of hydras with both upgrades range and speed with +1 almost half way. Trick is to 3 hatch, then drone, with a late 2nd gas (not as fast as you would take it with mutas) You will have a surplus of minerals and enough gas to upgrade and make hydras at the same time.
Again, I'll try to get a replay up. But by standard 3 hatch muta timing, terran will most likely to have 1 or maybe 1 and 1/2 group of marine pumping from 2-4 barracks (depending on build) with tanks, and +1 weapon researching. you won't be able bust their natrual with the build assuming they built 2 bunkers after seeing hydralisk den with their scan. By the time you get your 3rd gas, terran will just shred your hydra with 2-3 groups of rines with 3-5 tanks But then again, i'm only D player Terran, so any higher rank, feel free to correct me
Yeah and with terran not pumping turrets like mad due to muta threat, they will have a ton of spare resources to make for a booming macro - thats kinda how it works, kind of impossible to alter the muta paradigm without losing efficiency.
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On July 01 2011 06:59 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 04:50 jidolboy wrote:On June 30 2011 23:50 Keftes wrote:
I will try to post replays for evidence soon...
You will be surprised how fast you can get 2 control groups of hydras. In fact, by standard muta timing, you will have about 1 and a half groups of hydras with both upgrades range and speed with +1 almost half way. Trick is to 3 hatch, then drone, with a late 2nd gas (not as fast as you would take it with mutas) You will have a surplus of minerals and enough gas to upgrade and make hydras at the same time.
Again, I'll try to get a replay up. But by standard 3 hatch muta timing, terran will most likely to have 1 or maybe 1 and 1/2 group of marine pumping from 2-4 barracks (depending on build) with tanks, and +1 weapon researching. you won't be able bust their natrual with the build assuming they built 2 bunkers after seeing hydralisk den with their scan. By the time you get your 3rd gas, terran will just shred your hydra with 2-3 groups of rines with 3-5 tanks But then again, i'm only D player Terran, so any higher rank, feel free to correct me Yeah and with terran not pumping turrets like mad due to muta threat, they will have a ton of spare resources to make for a booming macro - thats kinda how it works, kind of impossible to alter the muta paradigm without losing efficiency.
Any Terran with basic scouting is going to smell something is up when the mutas dont even come, since the most common thing will be lurkers(my usual response) is to cancel turrets put down 2 bunkers and throw up a factory or two asap.
2 bunkers with marines + the other 18 or so+medics will be more than enough to stand up to and rape your hydras, then tanks coming soon after will basically seal the game for you.
Not to mention youre very open to drops since you give up scourge/mutas for a good bit to get out all those hydras. And since youre going for range/speed and 2-3 tank push with mnm and maybe a vessel will kill you since you wont have the resources for lurkers either.
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On June 30 2011 23:50 Keftes wrote:
I will try to post replays for evidence soon...
You will be surprised how fast you can get 2 control groups of hydras. In fact, by standard muta timing, you will have about 1 and a half groups of hydras with both upgrades range and speed with +1 almost half way. Trick is to 3 hatch, then drone, with a late 2nd gas (not as fast as you would take it with mutas) You will have a surplus of minerals and enough gas to upgrade and make hydras at the same time.
Again, I'll try to get a replay up.
I think people are well-versed in how quickly one can go 3 hatch hydra from ZvP. Trouble is that marines can shoot back while zealots walk until they grow some legs
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EPT
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