EPTAm I stopping probe production at the right time? - Page 6
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Terross
United States878 Posts
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
This thread has turned into this: HAHA NOOB USUK NO U NO U NOOB NO U SUK HAHAHAHAHA | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28609 Posts
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[G]Max_Power
Slovakia304 Posts
On February 03 2005 05:49 Ghin wrote: If you want to argue things, provide evidence. Otherwise you are saying empty boasts and threats. This thread has turned into this: HAHA NOOB USUK NO U NO U NOOB NO U SUK HAHAHAHAHA what sort of crack are you on?? | ||
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[G]Max_Power
Slovakia304 Posts
On February 03 2005 05:52 Liquid`Drone wrote: as was already shown, 35 probes in one base is completely useless. not if i make an expo | ||
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
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VorteXXX
United States430 Posts
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[G]Max_Power
Slovakia304 Posts
On February 03 2005 06:09 Ghin wrote: Why should anyone believe you if you don't prove what you say? Hm yeah,why would anyone read page 5 huh? I see you cant combine the abilities of your eyes and your brain completely so i wont flame you. Have a nice day. | ||
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On February 03 2005 02:15 [G]Max_Power wrote: ur link doesnt workyes i think you know what i meant. to the guys flaming me - you are not worth my time.Maybe you should reread the 5 pages of replies and see yourself that there are two groups of ppl - ones that make 25 probes and others that make 10 more.I am one who makes 35+ at one base.And im pretty good at it. http://www.battlereports.com/downloadreplay.php3/27388_strafe 2.rep?replaynum=27388 if anyone wants some "argument" | ||
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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
the whole point is that he said "in one base." of course making more probes is better when you're expanding. obviously drone doesn't ALWAYS cut probe production at 35, he just does it when he attacks before getting an expo. therefore, sometimes he cuts and sometimes he doesn't, given the situation. and there exist situations where cutting probe production is definitely better than not cutting probe production, especialy in pvp where if someone cuts probe production properly and attacks at the right time, the player who didn't is going to lose. many well respected and skilled players agree with this. your mantra of "always make probes in every situation" is stubborn and short-sighted. it's obvious that continunously making probes is not the best for every situation, and that cutting probes sometimes can win you the game over someone who does not. your refusal to admit this and constant repetition of pointless evidence like "i always make it work" or "i will make expo" just shows how weak your argument is. i doubt you'll respond to this in any constructive way. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
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[G]Max_Power
Slovakia304 Posts
On February 03 2005 08:01 Hot_Bid wrote: also, [G]max_power, posting one rep (link doesn't work) where you probably produce lots of probes and transfer them does not prove your point On February 03 2005 07:32 Resonate wrote: MaTRiX[SiN] you need to copy and paste battlereports.com links hot bid, please at least TRY (!!!!) to read the whole discussion before you reply and start to insult someone .Also please can you quote me where I posted that it is ----->ALWAYS<----- better to produce NONSTOP probes?? obviuosly, you are trying to make a fool out of me but what you managed is just to blame yourself by writing something that is untrue and what i didnt say and completely wrong. ...when i posted my previous message i was thinking to edit it,by adding "right click,save as" but then i thought that ppl at TL should get that by themselfs. I was wrong. | ||
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[G]Max_Power
Slovakia304 Posts
"not if i make an expo" i was thinking that at TL, people are somehow better skilled than random bnet newbs and understand that i meant "not if i INTEND to make an expo" again, i was wrong  next time i will write sentences that are easier to understand where you dont have to think so much. ok now hot bid ? | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
On January 30 2005 22:18 Liquid`Drone wrote: you did not stop too early at least stopping after 23-24-25 is pretty good. 41 supply with units seems reasonable. anyone who makes more than 30 doesn't know why, or if they think they do, they're wrong. Thats what I think, too.You'll get more money if you first start your nexus and then begin making more probes.I'm just not certain how many probes you need.I've made tests for Terran ,but not for the other races. | ||
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Beast_Bg
Bulgaria1623 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On January 31 2005 05:38 [G]Max_Power wrote: the probe count- I can have 40 probes (@ limit 80) and win against COMPETENT players.It is very much possible.So the 23-24-25 numbers seems pretty small. And I dont have expo. Okay, so this claim seems to suggest that you think it's fine to have 40 probes with no expo because you can beat competent players. Btw, just because playing a certain way allows you to beat competent players, doesn't mean that it's not the most efficient or strategic way to do it. You can beat competent players with crap strats and builds if you make up for it in other ways. This is actually pointed out by a post: On January 31 2005 07:45 [G]Max_Power wrote: thats just your opinion and guess what- i dont give a FUCK about your noobish thoughts. A very reasonable, and correct, reply to your post. A very unreasonable and stupid reply on your part to it. He was pointing out that if you can beat competent players with 40 probes, you could probably beat better players if you decided to do what's more efficient (fewer probes). Your response was very telling of your maturity. On January 31 2005 08:21 Liquid`Drone wrote: dude you fail to realize that 36 probes on minerals will not give you money faster than 26 probes on minerals will. thus, 36 probes on minerals is USELESS unless you have an expansion. you just end up wasting 500 minerals. or, 600, if you compare it to 24 probes on minerals. personally I usually stop at 20, although 24 will give sliiiiiightly more than 20, it's not much, and I can normally exploit the temporary unit advantage I have to hurt him in some way. Drone gives you a good explanation of why having so many probes without having an expansion is pointless as you are deriving no benefit from the additional cost in mineral and population (including pylons). On January 31 2005 09:12 [G]Max_Power wrote: dude, if I play defensively with my probe count - not attacking and good unit placement I can easyly make an expo and defend it even tho you will have 4-5 more goons but you must consider the travel distance thus giving me an advantage when I defend if you know what I mean. And btw the limiting factor in goons pvp are not minerals but GAS so if I keep my gas at 0-100 you cant really have more goons than me. Your response is that you can play defensively and be able to handle anything the other player throws at you and hold your expansion. Also mention the fact that gas is the limiting resource so you should have similar goon count to your opponent. On January 31 2005 09:26 Liquid`Drone wrote: if you have 10 useless probes and an expansion making, that means I have 900 minerals more than you worth of units. (and zealot/goon >> pure goon, just so you know. gas is not the only limiting factor. ) travel distance and defensive positioning does not help you win that battle unless I have to walk up a ramp, something I do not have to do to kill your expansion. give up already. you're dead wrong. Drone then clarifies how very wrong you are when he points out, correctly, that the additional mineral can be used to make zlots to go with his goons and overwhelm your expansion attempt. In case you missed the point, you will not be able to hold an expansion at that point with the additional resources thrown into paying for the probes and their supporting pylons. On January 31 2005 09:46 SCFraser wrote: defending an expo with more goons u can still lose to goon/reaver. especially with the chokes on maps like lt where u can only attack with half ur goons at once. 10 probes and an expansion will let them get 2 reavers and still have almost as many goons as you, plus maybe like 4 zealots, or an expansion in the making. those 2 reavers on their side mean you lose. expanding safely is hard in pvp. If im playing u and I've got you contained at your ramp, it might be worthwhile to keep making probes at that point and maynard some of them until i can get an expansion up... but if you dont see an expansion coming then u need to stop at 27/28 imo, 24 min, 3/4 gas. SCFraser then points out another reason why expending resources on additional probes too early to expand with is a bad idea: Reaver tech. You later respond, ignorantly, about how pure reaver is irrelevant, but fail to realize that no one said anything about pure reaver. He said 2 reavers to go along with other units to take out the expansion, if you don't see how it's relevant then there's really no point in discussing anymore. On February 01 2005 01:57 Twisted wrote: GORKY COULD EXPAND FIRST BECAUSE HE HAD MORE MINERALS BECAUSE HE MADE LESS PROBES SO HIS MONEY FLOW WAS 1,5 TIMES THAT OF NUROS AFTER HE EXPANDED DAEOIHJGWE ZIEKIE?! Self-explanatory. You were wrong again. There are more bad arguments and posts you throw in later, but I'll leave it at this: You were wrong in your argument against Drone as to the viability of having 40 probes prior to expansion, barring maps with protected expans or very long walking distances. On a map like LT, you will not be able to hold your expansion if your opponent is good and scouts you making too many probes. They will have stopped making probes after ~25 of them, throw down a few more gates, pump pure units, giving them a significant unit count advantage what with the costs of building probes and the pylons for extra control they eat up, and then overwhelm your expansion with little difficulty. You can get away with building that many probes if your opponent plays the same way you do (no probe production halting) and doesn't take advantage of the opening you're giving them. Obviously, as seen in this thread, many "competent" players don't seem to recognize this weakness and thus will not know how to exploit it. BUT, if you're looking to play PvP the best and most efficient way and be able to beat as high a level player as you can, you need to realize that stopping probe production much earlier is just much more efficient and strategically sound. It's ridiculous to ignore the opinions of players like Drone, Naz, and Rek (who have all agreed that stopping probe production in PvP is key to the matchup) when it comes to these type of discussions as they have played the game at as high a level as you can. If you still refuse to acknowledge your mistake at this point, then there really is no point in explaining further. It's a rather simple concept, but if a person refuses to look at the facts then no amount of discussion will change their mind. Continue to ignore the opinions of players who know better and have given good explanations for them, and you will not come off as merely stubborn as you've admitted to being, but also ignorant and stupid for refusing to admit your wrong when it's obvious that you are. Oh and please refrain from flaming people about not understanding posts when your own post comprehension and general argumentative abilities are so very laughable and flame-worthy themselves. | ||
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jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
On January 28 2005 19:22 Empyrean wrote: I generally don't stop until I need to free up supply. Then I load them in shuttles and see if I can get a few probe bombs. Doesn't work usually as the Terran have turrets and probes don't set off mines :O If it's a pvz i usually just suicide them. imho. Thats stupid  | ||
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
Last night I was playing a pvp on LT. I was at 12 and he was 6. I was already 0-2 vs this guy and kinda pissed off.. so when I saw him expand I was like YES this is my chance. At that point I already had 15 goons. I had 2 gates, robo, and a shuttle/bay making. So i cut my probe production at what i estimate was 25 total probes, and add a 3rd gate. when my first reaver pops I have like 21 goons, and even obs in case of dt! so i figure im set. my gates are hotkeyed and rallied to his choke. So i hit. turns out he has almost as many goons as me, maybe 16, plus 2 reavers!! WTF my micro was decent and i win the battle, but only by 2 goons. then his next 3 pop and I have to retreat.. I expoed while i was attacking, and its going strong, but I'm definitely behind. I harass with my next 2 reavers, kill maybe 15 probes (shoulda been more but i fucked up my micro) and lose both and the hsuttle. At this point hes expanded to his 2nd nat and is going 10 gate goon zeal temp!!! I've got 6 gates pumping, and like 30+ goons but with my reavers dead he hits me i dont have speed yet or storm he has like 20 goons 8 zeal and like 4 tempies that rape my goons, who have nowhere to run in the choke of my nat I'm GGed !!!! I was practicing for a tournement in x17 and my toss (main race) went 0-5!!! aghsjdlhgksjhg | ||
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