Am I stopping probe production at the right time?

On January 27 2005 21:51 pheered.user wrote:
oh and if you have no idea, dont fucking post here.

On January 28 2005 19:22 Empyrean wrote:
I generally don't stop until I need to free up supply. Then I load them in shuttles and see if I can get a few probe bombs. Doesn't work usually as the Terran have turrets and probes don't set off mines :O

If it's a pvz i usually just suicide them.

On January 30 2005 18:58 Geval wrote:
what Empyrean does is right, never stop pumping probes unless you are 200/200,
-before you have exp in main you had only ~25 which is not enough
but even 30-35 is not enought why?
-you would need probes for in exps
-your opponnents may kill some of your probes

if you want you can do an experiment to to time how much time it takes 30 probes to clean up an exp and how much time it takes for 50 probes.

btw. zergs middle and late game sux big time :O

On January 30 2005 17:55 Terross wrote:
im guessing your orange.. ?
Basically you stopped with 25 probes want 27(24 is 720 mines per minute 23 is 620.. + 3 for gas = 27) To do this click drag your army(should be about 9-11 drags/zeals/shutt at this time usually before reaver or when robo is just done i think) Then multiply by 2 since all toss units are 2 supply that you have then, and then subtract from total supply.
You were able to throw down expand earlier tahn red although he had better macro, he had bad unit count and you had position with your goons. I dont see point in rallying units to main pvp, but not big deal. You needed to set up your control 6(best place to do that goon contain imo) better. Goons were in straight line and doubled-tripled some areas, need that semi-circle for maximum effectiveness of course, also your temps were late and you had to retreat which cost you some units, which made your micro look a tad off since you had to maneuver goons awkwardly.
other stuff: building that pylon at his expand? just leave probe? Its effective because you can leave ur units in main vs drop until you see him come out of your base you move your units to expand. Also can tell his expo timing if you see probe come out with units. I dont see why you posted that rep seemed sort of dumb since you won game and it was so quick, probe count didnt even come into play that much imo because there was no attacking whatsoever except for that end of game.

edit: also about the expo related to probe production, if you are ahead you can afford to expand while keep up production, sometimes i cut probe production to expand earlier when both players are 3 gate gooning, i think its important to get that expand first( plus its easier to defend than attack pvp )If you are behind, then you most likely WILL need to cut probe production to keep up with opponent.

On January 30 2005 17:55 Terross wrote:
If you are behind, then you most likely WILL need to cut probe production to keep up with opponent.

On January 30 2005 19:03 pheered.user wrote:


you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about, you cannot mass produce probes in pvp.

Why?

Because you wont be able to expand vs someone who stopped probes at the right time.

On January 30 2005 20:10 pheered.user wrote:
seriously, If there is a matchup that I know anything about it is PVP, I could easily put myself in top 5 pvp in the USA.

On January 30 2005 22:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:
you did not stop too early at least

stopping after 23-24-25 is pretty good. 41 supply with units seems reasonable.
anyone who makes more than 30 doesn't know why, or if they think they do, they're wrong.

On January 30 2005 19:55 FroST(TE) wrote:
pheered - my best mu is pvp and i can say im pretty good at it =|
i know i dont stop probe production for that long until i get up to the 130's or 140's
i guess its just my style but it is possible to play that way ~_~

On January 31 2005 07:07 [G]Max_Power wrote:
i dont care if you think its retarded.What is important is that i can beat competent players with 40 probes@80 limit huh?

On January 31 2005 07:12 RaGe-xG- wrote:


I can beat standard lt open players with nukerush.
It doesn't matter.If you can beat competent players with 40 probes you're just dumb cause you could beat better players with a brain.

god,have you ever thought about what you wrote?

On January 30 2005 19:55 randomKo_Orean wrote:
who the hell stops probe production? In PvP? What the hell's wrong with you.

Maybe you hold it for awhile, buut you never stop, ever.

Unless oyu have 10k and 200/200 supply

On January 30 2005 20:10 pheered.user wrote:
I could easily put myself in top 5 pvp in the USA.

On January 31 2005 08:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
dude
you fail to realize that 36 probes on minerals will not give you money faster than 26 probes on minerals will.

thus, 36 probes on minerals is USELESS unless you have an expansion. you just end up wasting 500 minerals. or, 600, if you compare it to 24 probes on minerals. personally I usually stop at 20, although 24 will give sliiiiiightly more than 20, it's not much, and I can normally exploit the temporary unit advantage I have to hurt him in some way.

On January 31 2005 09:12 [G]Max_Power wrote:


dude,
if I play defensively with my probe count - not attacking and good unit placement I can easyly make an expo and defend it even tho you will have 4-5 more goons but you must consider the travel distance thus giving me an advantage when I defend if you know what I mean.
And btw the limiting factor in goons pvp are not minerals but GAS so if I keep my gas at 0-100 you cant really have more goons than me.

On January 31 2005 08:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
dude
you fail to realize that 36 probes on minerals will not give you money faster than 26 probes on minerals will.

thus, 36 probes on minerals is USELESS unless you have an expansion. you just end up wasting 500 minerals. or, 600, if you compare it to 24 probes on minerals. personally I usually stop at 20, although 24 will give sliiiiiightly more than 20, it's not much, and I can normally exploit the temporary unit advantage I have to hurt him in some way.

On January 31 2005 14:52 [G]Max_Power wrote:
1) gorky expanded first - more cash
2)nuros had sucky goon placement at main - lost a bunch of probes
3)nuros again lost a bunch of probes - he could easyly defend his natural with goons

nuros even had more units (unit count) AND probes but its hard to play against toss with good reaver control w/o reaver

On January 31 2005 14:52 [G]Max_Power wrote:
1) gorky expanded first - more cash
2)nuros had sucky goon placement at main - lost a bunch of probes
3)nuros again lost a bunch of probes - he could easyly defend his natural with goons

nuros even had more units (unit count) AND probes but its hard to play against toss with good reaver control w/o reaver

On February 01 2005 03:56 Terross wrote:
lol, i think gmax power is pretty firm on his opinion

On February 01 2005 01:57 Twisted wrote:


GORKY COULD EXPAND FIRST BECAUSE HE HAD MORE MINERALS BECAUSE HE MADE LESS PROBES SO HIS MONEY FLOW WAS 1,5 TIMES THAT OF NUROS AFTER HE EXPANDED

DAEOIHJGWE ZIEKIE?!

On February 01 2005 15:30 hixhix wrote:
go go 1:1, winner is right regardless how retarded he is. let 1v1 end the argument

On January 31 2005 16:20 iD.Surv wrote:
the real question is: how is the player who is palying it correct (drone) going to handle his early unit advantage. Is he going to find a weak spot (always a weak spot) and exploit it decently and finish of the incorrect play of the opponent ( stubborn newbie guy)

On February 02 2005 07:56 Fayth[pG] wrote:
Unless u plan to attack before u expand, u'd rather go probe non stop, get expand, then completely stop probes, make units off 6-7 gates and woohoo!

On February 02 2005 04:26 RaGe-xG- wrote:

we've been trying to explain it for about 2 pages worth of replies.

Does anyone here speak slovakian?

On January 30 2005 20:10 pheered.user wrote:
seriously, If there is a matchup that I know anything about it is PVP, I could easily put myself in top 5 pvp in the USA.

On February 02 2005 08:36 [G]Max_Power wrote:


according to some people, you are a dumbass newbie...

On February 02 2005 08:36 [G]Max_Power wrote:


according to some people, you are a dumbass newbie...

On January 31 2005 03:42 Liquid`Drone wrote:
3 more goons wins the game very often if your timing is good.

more probes are only useful if you expand. if you both expand and make additional probes, someone who does not expand and stops probes after ~24 will attack you and kill you.

On February 02 2005 13:23 JaySmurff wrote:


Im better then you at every matchup proven, dont make riduculious claims you can't backup with any so called "skill"

Oh and saying "easily put myself in top 5 pvp" just makes you a huge faggot. Dont even get me started about your micro.

And dont use this "you cheese me every game and win with it" bullshit, I use weird strats cause I know I can beat you no matter what I do. I hate that you bring this outa me, as I like to be humble and manner, but please just shut up and accept your place...

FYI your place isnt even close to top 5 USA, I can think of at least 30 american players who would beat you PvP without even trying.

p.s msg me for bo5 if you want me to prove what I stated above. Last bo5 was 4-1 anyways.

On February 02 2005 16:09 pheered.user wrote:



Stop talking shit cuase i left your stupid shitty clan, If the bo5 is pure pvp, i will win 3-0

However I am not saying i can beat you best of 5 pvt because, well i dont even want to play you

your mind works like this

1. Do something gay
2. when it fails turtle till you can win.

On February 02 2005 13:53 Fayth[pG] wrote:

according to some people, i am quite good too.
It's the same for most of the good players out there

On February 02 2005 15:24 iamke55 wrote:


No; according to some people, you are the dumbass newbie. There's a difference between stopping probes once you expand and making 100 supply of probes with 5 probes to a mineral.

On February 03 2005 05:49 Ghin wrote:
If you want to argue things, provide evidence. Otherwise you are saying empty boasts and threats.
This thread has turned into this:
HAHA NOOB USUK
NO U
NO U NOOB
NO U SUK HAHAHAHAHA

On February 03 2005 05:52 Liquid`Drone wrote:
as was already shown, 35 probes in one base is completely useless.

On February 03 2005 06:09 Ghin wrote:
Why should anyone believe you if you don't prove what you say?

On February 03 2005 02:15 [G]Max_Power wrote:


yes i think you know what i meant.

to the guys flaming me - you are not worth my time.Maybe you should reread the 5 pages of replies and see yourself that there are two groups of ppl - ones that make 25 probes and others that make 10 more.I am one who makes 35+ at one base.And im pretty good at it.

http://www.battlereports.com/downloadreplay.php3/27388_strafe 2.rep?replaynum=27388

if anyone wants some "argument"

On February 03 2005 06:07 [G]Max_Power wrote:


not if i make an expo

On February 03 2005 08:01 Hot_Bid wrote:
also, [G]max_power, posting one rep (link doesn't work) where you probably produce lots of probes and transfer them does not prove your point

On February 03 2005 07:32 Resonate wrote:
MaTRiX[SiN] you need to copy and paste battlereports.com links

On January 30 2005 22:18 Liquid`Drone wrote:
you did not stop too early at least

stopping after 23-24-25 is pretty good. 41 supply with units seems reasonable.
anyone who makes more than 30 doesn't know why, or if they think they do, they're wrong.

On January 31 2005 05:38 [G]Max_Power wrote:
the probe count-

I can have 40 probes (@ limit 80) and win against COMPETENT players.It is very much possible.So the 23-24-25 numbers seems pretty small.

And I dont have expo.

On January 31 2005 07:45 [G]Max_Power wrote:


thats just your opinion and guess what- i dont give a FUCK about your noobish thoughts.

On January 31 2005 08:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
dude
you fail to realize that 36 probes on minerals will not give you money faster than 26 probes on minerals will.

thus, 36 probes on minerals is USELESS unless you have an expansion. you just end up wasting 500 minerals. or, 600, if you compare it to 24 probes on minerals. personally I usually stop at 20, although 24 will give sliiiiiightly more than 20, it's not much, and I can normally exploit the temporary unit advantage I have to hurt him in some way.

On January 31 2005 09:12 [G]Max_Power wrote:
dude,
if I play defensively with my probe count - not attacking and good unit placement I can easyly make an expo and defend it even tho you will have 4-5 more goons but you must consider the travel distance thus giving me an advantage when I defend if you know what I mean.
And btw the limiting factor in goons pvp are not minerals but GAS so if I keep my gas at 0-100 you cant really have more goons than me.

On January 31 2005 09:26 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if you have 10 useless probes and an expansion making, that means I have 900 minerals more than you worth of units. (and zealot/goon >> pure goon, just so you know. gas is not the only limiting factor. )

travel distance and defensive positioning does not help you win that battle unless I have to walk up a ramp, something I do not have to do to kill your expansion.

give up already. you're dead wrong.

On January 31 2005 09:46 SCFraser wrote:
defending an expo with more goons u can still lose to goon/reaver. especially with the chokes on maps like lt where u can only attack with half ur goons at once.

10 probes and an expansion will let them get 2 reavers and still have almost as many goons as you, plus maybe like 4 zealots, or an expansion in the making.
those 2 reavers on their side mean you lose. expanding safely is hard in pvp.


If im playing u and I've got you contained at your ramp, it might be worthwhile to keep making probes at that point and maynard some of them until i can get an expansion up... but if you dont see an expansion coming then u need to stop at 27/28 imo, 24 min, 3/4 gas.

On February 01 2005 01:57 Twisted wrote:


GORKY COULD EXPAND FIRST BECAUSE HE HAD MORE MINERALS BECAUSE HE MADE LESS PROBES SO HIS MONEY FLOW WAS 1,5 TIMES THAT OF NUROS AFTER HE EXPANDED

DAEOIHJGWE ZIEKIE?!

On January 28 2005 19:22 Empyrean wrote:
I generally don't stop until I need to free up supply. Then I load them in shuttles and see if I can get a few probe bombs. Doesn't work usually as the Terran have turrets and probes don't set off mines :O

If it's a pvz i usually just suicide them.

On January 31 2005 05:38 [G]Max_Power wrote:
the probe count-

I can have 40 probes (@ limit 80) and win against COMPETENT players.It is very much possible.So the 23-24-25 numbers seems pretty small.

And I dont have expo.

On January 31 2005 07:07 [G]Max_Power wrote:
i dont care if you think its retarded.What is important is that i can beat competent players with 40 probes@80 limit huh?

On February 03 2005 08:49 [G]Max_Power wrote:
and about this-

"not if i make an expo"

i was thinking that at TL, people are somehow better skilled than random bnet newbs and understand that i meant "not if i INTEND to make an expo"

On February 03 2005 12:46 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote:
so you're saying that you're going to expo LATER than the other player while they have a unit advantage?

Stop trying to win a lost argument.

On February 03 2005 13:14 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote:
and then get run over by his superior army

good job.

On February 03 2005 13:32 SCFraser wrote:
In certain specific situations it could be better to keep making probes.

For instance
you 2 gate goon reaver and keep making probes
he goes 3 gate goon and stops at 27 or whatever

u harass with reaver, he doesnt lose much, he decides he can hold an expo and expands.
You see this and expand withing 30 seconds of him.
as soon as both expansions are up, you have say 8 more probes than him, and a much better econ from 2 bases.

pretty specific, and until like 45 seconds after the expo finishes you'd be vulnerable.

On February 03 2005 11:50 Lexus-Bug wrote:
how many workers needed for a 8-pack $ field?? 20? a couple more for gas perhaps?

On February 03 2005 06:07 [G]Max_Power wrote:


not if i make an expo

On February 03 2005 15:13 Terross wrote:

and if you read you would notice the ONE BASE part.

On February 03 2005 15:20 rpf289 wrote:
cant we all just be friends and hold hands and sing stupid songs like on barney?

On February 03 2005 16:34 SCFraser wrote:

I'm down.

On February 03 2005 12:54 FroST(TE) wrote:
just wondering, is there anybody here aside from me and fayth that are a proponent of nonstop probes for a lot longer time?

On February 03 2005 18:06 Louder wrote:
In general though, making probes in pvp is no different than in pvt or pvz in early to early mid game.

On February 03 2005 19:12 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
[G]Max:

You stated that you make 40 probes before expanding because it will help your macro once you decide to take your expansion. You claim that making ~15 more probes than what is recommended by Drone, and presumably that many more probes than the opponent you'd be playing, will not set you back significantly in unit count and thus allow you to defend that expansion. Quite a few people pointed out that with the additional resources from not making ~15 more probes and the extra pylons to support them, there WOULD be enough of a resource advantage by your opponent to take out any expansion attempt you'd make to justify your pointless pre-expansion higher probe count via additional Goons, Zlots, or Reaver tech.

Try to get this part: barring a significant disparity in skill level between you and your opponent, you will NOT be able to hold any expansion attempt with the resource advantage your opponent has if you make 40 probes prior to expanding unless you do something nifty with tech (Reaver, DT and opp has no Obs). As such, you will NOT be able to utilize whatever imagined advantage you\'d hope for by making the addition ~15 probes. Not sure how much clearer I can make this.

Now if you decide to not expand until after you see your opponent expand, then it becomes a waiting game that you will ultimately lose as your extra probes will put, and leave, you behind. If your opponent decides to expand instead of wait you out, then you may have a chance to catch up if he ignores the window of opportunity to wipe out your simultaneous expansion attempt (yes, I know you said 2-3 seconds after, but that is stupid and should not be considered "after" at all), but that is assuming a less than competent opponent which we have already discussed to be a factor should not be considered in a discussion of Strategies. I hope that you realize it's pointless to discuss the viability of strategies that rely upon your opponent's incompetence, as then any strategy becomes viable and people can start pulling out their nuke rush builds.

Please refrain from making anymore posts on this topic until you discuss the points that people have made and I have tried to put together in this post. Your responses so far have been far from satisfactory when it comes to explaining away the weaknesses pointed out in your proposed PvP strategy by other members, and I think we're all getting tired of you and your posts.

Quite a few people pointed out that with the additional resources from not making ~15 more probes and the extra pylons to support them, there WOULD be enough of a resource advantage by your opponent to take out any expansion attempt you'd make to justify your pointless pre-expansion higher probe count via additional Goons, Zlots, or Reaver tech.

On February 04 2005 18:51 [G]Max_Power wrote:
umm im too out of order now

i will respond later

hello

hi

On February 04 2005 12:29 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
MaTRiX,

Read more carefully and you will see that my arguments are based upon the assumption that all other factors are equal except for cutting or not cutting probes. The factors of travel distance, the location of the expansion, early advantages, micro skill, etc have all been discussed and been used to qualify the posts. The point is that [G]Max makes no qualifying statements or explanations as to these factors by pointing out that he gets early reavers to defend, has to outmicro his opponent, needs an early advantage, only works on maps with long travel distances or protected expansion locations, etc. His claim is that even if all other things are equal, his way of playing PvP is better than that suggested by Drone and others in the circumstances he outlined. He stands by his claim that making that many probes prior to expansion will allow him to eventually outmacro his opponent and win, when it is quite clear that this is not true as long as your opponent knows what they're doing and doesn't mess up.

.

On February 04 2005 09:52 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
1. "Everyone has its own truth" makes NO sense.

2. It's true that there are times when it's not good to cut probes, however the situation you've outlined in your posts is not one of them. Everytime you explain how you personally play PvP with 40 probes prior to expansion you get countered and you fail to answer with any reasonable explanations. Everyone recognizes there are exceptions to the cutting of probe production, but the way you play is clearly not one of those situations and so you are wrong.

3. Your last sentence also makes NO sense. Post count means nothing when it comes to backing up one's arguments or making reasonable and logical posts. "...but when there is something i want to discuss its pvp,probes and upgrades"? We ARE discussing pvp and probes, so you should be fine as it's something you want to discuss. If you really want to discuss the topic then do it in a constructive manner, whether this is your first post or your 10000th.

4. Bottom line, stop posting until you can learn to make some sense in your posts. Not only do you dodge issues and counter arguments with stupidity, you also flame and post in a condescending manner when you are so very clearly WRONG.

On February 05 2005 04:04 [G]Max_Power wrote:

If someone doesnt understand what was written doesnt mean it makes no sense...

#2 first sentence is basically an aggreement with my opinion so ...

matrix pointed out that situation very nicely.When I go expand you are forced to attack which makes it a do-or-die strat and considering the travel distance,defense position and other factors I have a good chance to hold my expo.

That sums up my point of view.

On February 05 2005 13:22 [G]Max_Power wrote:
If you dont agree with "my" strat - FINE, I dont really care.
But plz, all you do is theory,theory,theorycraft - maybe you dont recognize the many "IFs" in your post.
OH HELLO??????? we all make mistakes and mess up in games there is no FLAWLESS play as you wrote.Wake up,dude.

On February 05 2005 13:29 pheered.user wrote:
gmax power you are stupid, and should be kicked in the balls for arguing about this for so long it is stupid to make more than 28 probes end of story.

On February 09 2005 10:05 Terross wrote:


i think you are the true idiot of this thread, atleast gmax is just stating his own point even if he is horribly wrong. On the other thand, you make a thread asking for advice, and then say you made the thread to show how gosu you are, and that you are amazing pvp ect. , and you are proving how everyone is a dumb noob besides you =-/

On February 09 2005 10:05 Terross wrote:


i think you are the true idiot of this thread, atleast gmax is just stating his own point even if he is horribly wrong. On the other thand, you make a thread asking for advice, and then say you made the thread to show how gosu you are, and that you are amazing pvp ect. , and you are proving how everyone is a dumb noob besides you =-/

On February 09 2005 15:34 pheered.user wrote:



I have no point to prove, i said i thought my pvp was good but there is always room for improvement and i am by no means a progamer, and I do have flaws in my play so i asked for advice from top notch players when they stopped probes compared to me because again, I want to better myself. I honestly dont understand what your problem is, I never said i was "gosu" i just stated that i could on a good day be top 5 pvp in the USA, PVP is a very simple matchup and anyone with alot of experience at it such as myself can be good at it.

On February 09 2005 17:48 pheered.user wrote:
on behalf of the community would you like to do the duty of playing me a best of 5 pvp?

Im sick of all this trash talk bullshit, either play or shut the fuck up and get the fuck off my balls.

On February 09 2005 15:01 ManaBlue wrote:


Maybe you should read the other pages of the thread before making dumbass character assumptions about people. Good job asshole.

On February 10 2005 04:54 Terross wrote:


maybe you should do that and notice that i have read and posted in this thread front to back =-/

w/e though ;o this thread seems resolved !

On February 09 2005 23:01 Sambo83 wrote:
rofl.. haven't played, didn't know the map, blah blah...

Why are you so cocky? If cygnus went 2-3 with you PvP, I doubt you'd be in the top 5 PvP in the blizzforums channel on east on a busy day, let alone in the US.