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Howdy, fellas.
This is a short question regarding the upgrade preference when going for a  4 Hatch before Gas (vs. Protoss) build against a FFE.
Bear in mind, this topic talks about a 4hatch hydra-oriented build.
The wiki advises me to get +1 carapace to fight against the +1 zealots that will be coming out, which makes perfect sense. But recently, I've felt much more comfortable upgrading +1 ranged attack instead of +1 carapace for my hydras.
What is your opinion? Should I add a note to the wiki page, or is this just a D+/C- "trick" that is obsolete in higher levels of play? Or maybe there are different situations/maps in which attacks are superior to carapace, and vice-versa?
Thanks for reading!
+ Show Spoiler +Sorry, I don't have any replays worth watching at the moment, but when I get some replays, I will definitely post them here... but please post yours, too!
Poll: What should you upgrade?Carapace (22) 54% Queen Energy! (11) 27% Ranged Attack (8) 20% 41 total votes Your vote: What should you upgrade? (Vote): Carapace
(Vote): Ranged Attack
(Vote): Queen Energy!
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the purpose of upgrading your carapace first is because of the +1 timing push that protoss can do, and you would have lings + sunkens during that timing window which makes the carapace upgrade a must. you have felt like ranged is better because majority of the iccup tosses doesnt know the proper timing windows for different situations, so their pushes came way too late probably, seeing from u that u are telling here you have defended with range hydras.
it all depends on your scouting info. there are lots of variations in this build and has many holes to exploit. its not 1 sided. and yeah would have been better if you have provided some replays so i can tell you my opinion more better 
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I get destroyed by 4 hat hydra because I don't recognize it and am expecting something like typical neo sauron... but whenever there is no carapace I have much easier time because when my timing push comes in I can run in and usually do some damage and/or get a scout. But I'm only D.
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From what I've heard the latest trend is to do missile attack first if you're going for a hydra heavy midgame. Using an overlord parked over their natural you can also check whether or not the forge is spinning to help you prepare for a +1 speedzeal or not
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u should have enough money for both carapace and melee/missile, because u get them a bit later than with standard play. which one out of melee/missile u get depends on the rest of your build. if youre going hydra/lurker/muta or somethjing like that, get missile. if u want fast hive and dont get many hydras get melee.
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Hmmm... I've toyed with this build a very long time ago but I don't remember the details super well. Even though it worked fairly well for me I didn't use it much. I don't remember the details on the timing of the Protoss rush well enough to talk about the timing windows.
Really though, +1 carapace before rather than +1 range attack is intended for zergling vs zealot rather than hydra vs zealot. In hydra vs zealot battles, the +1 attack upgrade is superior (provided you have researched hydra speed and hydra range).
It seems that the formulation of the build described on Liquipedia is really intended to be played to be played in the fashion of Sauron style Zerg. See, what's going to happen when you use this particular build is that you will have later tech due to the later gas and to counter his corsairs you really want to get some scourge in the air, but if you go hydra tech you're going to be investing more of that critical early gas than you would if you went played for zerglings which is likely to delay your spire since you will need hydras up to deal with his +1 zeal rush.
So, from eye-balling the build and comparing the timings to my experiences with 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra, I think that this really is a "D+/C- trick" that is unlikely to work against higher caliber players.
However, that said, it may be that yes, there are some maps where this strategy may be preferable. If you think about a map like Andromeda or Azalea where each main+nat+2nd nat area only has 1 choke in total, it seems to me like you should be able to adapt this build to the style of play you are looking for. Since reaver/sair is likely on Andromeda anyway, I think you are better off with hydra based play than getting +1 carapace speedlings for defense.
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I'm no expert, but any build that revolves around mass hydras should upgrade missile.
Any build that revolves around lurker/ling should upgrade carapace.
If you plan on making a lot of both, upgrade both--it's only like one less lurker in exchange for a lot of army power (and for later game you should have 2-3 evos upgrading anyways)
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United States11393 Posts
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That JvS game was so awesome
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hi gooseheaded. good luck! loll
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The reason for getting missle with hydralisks is because you are intending to micro and you will get hit less if you deal more dps (and kite appropriately)
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4 hatch before gas works on higher levels. I've won using it against B/B+ players on hbr and neomedusa during iccup cl a couple seasons ago, and not just the all-in variation; but there are many mind-game tricks involved.
I don't recall if fast upgrades work but if you upgrade I would most definitely go with +1 range instead of carapace. The reason is not primarily the zealots, as you can keep hydras behind sim-city and power drones to keep up with economy when toss takes 3rd (though you would still be behind because of lower tech). The problem would be the corsairs because you don't have scourge, so you can't defend your slow overlords at base unless you split up some hydras. You could lay down spore colony as you already have evo though.
But the reason I would go with +1 range is so if you can somehow catch a corsair's path, you have a better chance of killing it than letting it escape. It also works better vs corsair/reaver like mortality said.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
You're misunderstanding the reason why the build existed in the first place. Strong Lair tech play against Protoss was considered a ridiculously tough proposition for Zerg back then, because Templar tech raped everything. However, the Neo Sauron build arose as a counter to this by introducing Mutas back into the Zerg mid game after they had fallen out of favor.
With that in mind, remember that this build was never meant for Lair or mass Hydra play. Zerg was supposed to take and hold a third and fourth easily with Lurkers and Zerglings while teching up to Hive. Then, once you hit Hive, the +1 carapace that you researched early in the game would kick into gear, and allow your Zerglings to fight on even ground with Zealots.
That's not to say that this build can't be modified for powerful Lair tech play, but you will find yourself struggling against Corsairs without Scourge. And if you get a Spire, you might as well go 3 Hatch Spire -> 5 Hatch Hydra anyway.
That's the background. What does that mean for your specific question? If you're planning on Lair tech play, go +1 missile. If you're planning for late game Hive play, go +1 Carapace.
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The 4h before gas build described on liquipedia is actually lurker ling (+muta optional) build, don't use it as guideline. There is no 4 hatch hydra builds on liquipedia as I know.
Getting +1 carapace while using hydras is ineffective. Spending the first 150 gas on +1 carapace will delay lair by full 30-35 seconds and is just plain stupid if you go mass hydras. You will want all mac upgrades later of course.
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EPT
