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because some people dont really know how the upgrade thing works...
On August 14 2004 10:40 Pomozite wrote: Show nested quote +On August 13 2004 10:04 Peatza wrote: Anyway i was wondering. What do you think is the best thing to upg for Carriers. It is more importante to upgrade attack. Interceptors damage is only 6 and if you don't upgrade attack, upgraded Goliath (3/3) takes only 2 damage. If you upgrade attack, damage is increased to 5 (250%). Upgrading carriers armor doesn't have big effect, because goliaths make big damage. Fullly upgrades goliaths make 32 damage, and if you don't upgrade armor they make 28 damage, but if you fully upgrade armor they make 25 damage (89.2%). Terrans rarely use valkyrie, so upgrading armor is not so clever. In pvp, it is also better to upgrade attack unless toss is countering your carriers with corsair. In pvz attack is also more important, because devorers make big damage and have big arrmor(2). If zerg fully upgraded devorers armor interceptor will make only 1 damage, but if you upgrade attack it makes 4 damage.
ok, som the fully upgraded carrier (4+3) takes how much damage from a goliath with basic attack 20?lets guess- 17?noo 14? nope 10? nono ... yes baby its a round 6 !!!
now lets upgrade the 2legs guys with +1 now hi gives 10dmg +2 makes it 14 and +3 does 18 damage.
so it is the best when you upgrade both attack and armor for your flagships
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6 damage, that's insane. To bad good Terran upg like crazy.
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On August 15 2004 03:54 [G]Max_Power wrote: ok, som the fully upgraded carrier (4+3) takes how much damage from a goliath with basic attack 20? 20-7=13. Zelots attack is 2*8, but goliaths air attack is not 2*10, although you can see 2 rockets. Weapon upgrade is very important for goliaths, so if he is not newb he will spend money on upgrades. When I see goliaths in my games opponent has at least 2-2 upgrades.
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Norway28282 Posts
you're wrong.
goliath air is 2x10
thus a goliath with no upgrades deals 12 damage against a carrier with no upgrades, 6 damage against a carrier with 3 armor a goliath with 3 attack deals 24 damage to a carrier with no upgrades or 18 to one with 3 armor
so yes, getting carrier armor is most definitely worth it. but attack is way more important, you generally want your carriers to avoid getting hit anyway.
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and don't forget air armor helps interceptor live longer and they are small (which is good vs explosive)
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I just checked and you are right. There is one thing I really don't understand. I just saw foru vs trekkerman semifinal games and in first game on Gorky Island Foru made 5 carriers and attacked with them and some units, but he didn't upgrade carrier capacity. He lost 4 carriers and after that he upgraded capacity. In last game he also upgraded capacity very late. That upgrade is not expencive and it gives carriers so much.
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gollies are overpowered. If their AI was any better they'd be unstoppable
having said that, i don't think the situation needs changing, i just like to moan about (what i feel is) the obvious.
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I heard somewhere that due to interceptor's speed and small size, any unit that attacks it has a 50% chance to miss... anybody know if it's true?
checked it, it's false
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speaking of armor, i thought of something weird. Let's say a zealot has 2 shield health left and 100 hit points of health left. If something does damage of 10 to the zealot, 2 health should be taken off the shield and 8 off of the hit points, but what if the zealot has armor.
If the zealot has +3 plasma shields does that mean 3 attack gets taken off for free for every hit on the zealot when its plasma shield is depleted or almost depleted? Or just every time the zealot has 1 health in its plasma shields?
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when an interceptor goes back into the carrier does it heal it?
ive wondered this for quite some time :O
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pheered: nvm guess i was wrong
transcendental: if zealot has +3 shield ups, then a unit that normally does 10 dmg would do 7, I think
if z got 2 shieldpoints and 100 hitpoints and 1 armor for hps, then something that normally does 10 damage would leave the zealot with 93 hp/0sp (assuming the unit does full dmage to zealot's size)
I could be totally off, though
btw are zealots small or medium units? also could someone tell me if this is right:
explosive = 50% to small, 75% to medium, full dmg to large concussive/plasma = 50% to medium, 25% to large
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On August 15 2004 08:51 PheeRed.User wrote: when an interceptor goes back into the carrier does it heal it?
ive wondered this for quite some time :O
No and damn fortunately.
Otherwise we'd have some BIG imbalance issues on our hands>
Think about how fucking gay carriers + shield batteries would be on a cliff vs almost anything.
Edit if you don't believe me just do single player and get one carrier to attack a building or something and while it is have a dragoon shoot one interceptor constantly until it's down to red/yellow health and then make the carrier stop attacking. Then make it attack again and select all interceptors you'll see the damaged one.
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ah i just tested it, when the interceptors go bck in, shields heal but hitpoints don't.. cool
edit: ah i was wrong again, hitpoints DO heal but not completely, i.e my goon attacked nd left it with 31 hp, it came out with 32, i attacked it again, but left it at 32hp/0sp, it came out with 36 hp. Depends on the time it spent in the carrier
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My sister just paid me in nothing but 5s and 1s... WTF
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On August 15 2004 09:04 JeeJee wrote: ah i just tested it, when the interceptors go bck in, shields heal but hitpoints don't.. cool
edit: ah i was wrong again, hitpoints DO heal but not completely, i.e my goon attacked nd left it with 31 hp, it came out with 32, i attacked it again, but left it at 32hp/0sp, it came out with 36 hp :O
WTF REALLY!?!?!
That's really fucking awesome/rigged if interceptors heal the longer they are in the carrier.
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yes try it ^^
guess we hve those big imbalance issues on our hands
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Holy fucking shit dude, I just tried it with a carrier with 4 interceptors and every time the interceptor gets hit it goes back into the carrier and comes back out with full shields, I never managed to hit the interceptor enough times to actually damage it's hp though.
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yeah shields heal in full, no matter how long the interceptor spent time inside, try slowest speed in single player (easier to attack) and get 2 goons, that should be enough -> 3 hits = damaged hp
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yes they heal they cost 25$ so there should be a guaranty of warranty service or something
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suffeli
Finland772 Posts
How about interceptors vs turrets? Mass turrets will deal lot of damage to non-upgraded interceptors. Dunno how much armour affects tho.
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United States12184 Posts
On August 15 2004 08:48 transcendental1 wrote: speaking of armor, i thought of something weird. Let's say a zealot has 2 shield health left and 100 hit points of health left. If something does damage of 10 to the zealot, 2 health should be taken off the shield and 8 off of the hit points, but what if the zealot has armor.
If the zealot has +3 plasma shields does that mean 3 attack gets taken off for free for every hit on the zealot when its plasma shield is depleted or almost depleted? Or just every time the zealot has 1 health in its plasma shields?
Yes. Let's say a Level 3 Shield Zealot is attacked by a Level 0 Zergling (5 - 3).
Each time the Zealot is hit, his Shield points will drop by 2 (5 - 3). If the Zealot has less than 2 Shield points (that is, if the attack is strong enough to penetrate the shield) Armor gets added in. So, the Shield will go down to zero but the amount taken from health is shield_upgrade + armor. If this value is greater than the attacker's damage, the minimum damage of 0.5 is registered. The Shield upgrades do not take effect unless the Shield value is greater than 0 or unless they are regenerating (which is about once per second).
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United States12184 Posts
On August 15 2004 09:33 suffeli wrote: How about interceptors vs turrets? Mass turrets will deal lot of damage to non-upgraded interceptors. Dunno how much armour affects tho.
No they don't. Turrets are terrible at defending against Interceptors. The only reason Terrans build Turrets en masse when the enemy has Carriers is so the Protoss can't just recklessly fly his Carriers over - he has to kill the Turrets first. Anyway, Turret damage against Interceptors is halved (to their armor) which is only 10, and Interceptors are fast enough and have so much range that they end up microing themselves against the Turrets so damage is distributed evenly.
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United States12184 Posts
On August 15 2004 09:04 JeeJee wrote: ah i just tested it, when the interceptors go bck in, shields heal but hitpoints don't.. cool
edit: ah i was wrong again, hitpoints DO heal but not completely, i.e my goon attacked nd left it with 31 hp, it came out with 32, i attacked it again, but left it at 32hp/0sp, it came out with 36 hp. Depends on the time it spent in the carrier
Last I checked, Interceptors never heal their base armor (like any Protoss unit).
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They do
ah i don't know wht you mean by healing their base armor, i suppose you meant healing their hitpoints (not shield points)
yes it is true, they do heal their hitpoints as well as shield points when inside
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I've checked.
- After returning to the carrier, the interceptors's shield is FULLY recovered and it's INSTANTLY !!
- The intercepter's HP is SLOWLY recovered when it comes back to the carrier.
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United States12184 Posts
On August 15 2004 09:53 JeeJee wrote: They do
ah i don't know wht you mean by healing their base armor, i suppose you meant healing their hitpoints (not shield points)
yes it is true, they do heal their hitpoints as well as shield points when inside
They surely do, you're right, I just ran a test. IMBA =)
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United States12184 Posts
On August 15 2004 10:02 Elvin_vn wrote: I've checked.
- After returning to the carrier, the interceptors's shield is FULLY recovered and it's INSTANTLY !!
- The intercepter's HP is SLOWLY recovered when it comes back to the carrier.
It's not even slow! I was amazed at how fast it repairs itself. It's like 5 hp per second! Seems to be even faster than the Terran repair!
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After somewhat "extensive" testing it's about 2-3hp/sec on slowest speed, so if someone could translate that to fastest...
edit: regenn'ed 19hp in about 6.5 seconds on slowest which is roughly 3hp/sec, what's that in fastest? It seems to heal way too fast...
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okey then, may be it's just that i ran the test at slowest speed, so it was slow to me. Damn rigged interceptors @#@*#!#!
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United States12184 Posts
On August 15 2004 10:14 JeeJee wrote: After somewhat "extensive" testing it's about 2-3hp/sec on slowest speed, so if someone could translate that to fastest...
Fastest speed is 4x faster than Slowest... so that's roughly 10hp per second! IMBA
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omg 4x are you serious? 10hp/sec ?? and here I was loosing PvT's because of no interceptors T.T
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Well, Carrier is not a imbalanced unit, I don't know how many times i have lost, because my interceptors gets killed.
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So all this means
TERRAN GAY FAG TURRET/TANK/VULT + LATE GAME GOLS PUSH IS IMBA NOT THE CARRIAR!
Lolz, I really didn't know this about carrier. I guess sc really will never be completely understood.
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haha i opened a new revelation to starcraft, i was almost positive that they healed but i diddnt know
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On August 15 2004 09:07 Chris307 wrote: My sister just paid me in nothing but 5s and 1s... WTF
haha all 20s and 10s
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I've always wondered why interceptors last so long even though they have just a bit more life than 2 zerglings
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OMG. I've just ran another test and discovered:
1. Yes, interceptor shield recovers to 40 shield instantly upon returning to the carrier
2. Interceptor's HP recovers at about 8hp her second (fastest speed)
3. If the interceptor is being attacked, it will automatically by itself return to the carrier to heal, and then come back out once you use the "attack" command
EDIT: Actually, it only returns to the carrier to heal when its health is low. I think it does it when its HP is less than 25 (automatically of course)
4. The "stop" command will make all interceptors return to your carrier so they can heal
I think there should be a new topic on this since we've obviously gotten off topic by now.
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ppl have known since like ever since ppl started using carriers seriously (they were improved) about the shields healing thing. ppl moistly want it changed
i dont know why interceptors would heal HP tho thats stupid
interceptor automatically running away when shot is kinda strange..
oh yeah and repair speed is based on build time, so an interceptor's build time, being very low, would repair very quickly, assuming that is what is being done. u could try to change the build time and see if it makes the healing slower or not. probably not dunno.
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On August 15 2004 19:51 Commander[SB] wrote: Show nested quote +On August 15 2004 09:07 Chris307 wrote: My sister just paid me in nothing but 5s and 1s... WTF haha all 20s and 10s
You should open up a checking account if you haven't already
I opened up a checking account with like $600, they gave me placeholder checks before the ones I ordered are shipped in, it was a variety pack of placeholder checks and the very first one was a check with three stupid smiling babies on it
I wrote a check for $15 and was like "mom, please cash this.. get it away from me" because babies are gross
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just remember what interceptors are. little fighter ships in a big ass flag ship capable of repairing them and fixing them up. that's presumably why they go back in anyway
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I made several tests, and turrets are somewhat effective in killing interceptors. I placed about as many turrets as possible at the top left island on LT, leaving space for CC and SCVs mining, and then attacked with 12 carriers with 8 interceptors each. About 3 turrets died and then all interceptors were dead.
3 turrets = 225 minerals 96 interceptors = 2400 minerals
(not sure about the costs)
If you count all the turrets and the carriers, turrets are still more cost-effective. But they only work when you have a lot of them. Also, in TvP when the protoss has carriers the terran usually doesn't have gas to spare but does have lots of minerals, so turrets are a fair enough choice, if you have high apm.
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Why would you need high APM to make turrets
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to make a bunch of them ASAP =P
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Why does everybody say that real damage unit A is doing to unit B is calculated in following way: real_damage(A,B) = basic_attack(A) +weapon_upg(A) - basic_armor(B) - armor_upg(B) ???
Let's take a 3/3 marine vs zerg egg. real_damage(marine(3/3), zerg_egg(0/0)) = 6+3-10-0 = -1, but marines are still killing eggs (although horribly slowly)
Does anybody know what are the real damage calculation formulas? Are HP stored as integers or smaller fragments? Any Blizzard programmers here ? I think if anybody created an utility to calculate real damage of units vs units with different upgrades + regeneration factor, some strategies in BW would change again.
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there are many of those utilities already...
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On August 16 2004 01:45 SoL.Origin wrote: there are many of those utilities already... Name? Link?
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On August 16 2004 01:36 ygor wrote: Why does everybody say that real damage unit A is doing to unit B is calculated in following way: real_damage(A,B) = basic_attack(A) +weapon_upg(A) - basic_armor(B) - armor_upg(B) ??? Let's take a 3/3 marine vs zerg egg. real_damage(marine(3/3), zerg_egg(0/0)) = 6+3-10-0 = -1, but marines are still killing eggs (although horribly slowly) Does anybody know what are the real damage calculation formulas? Are HP stored as integers or smaller fragments? Any Blizzard programmers here ? I think if anybody created an utility to calculate real damage of units vs units with different upgrades + regeneration factor, some strategies in BW would change again.
ur formula is true.
what should be added is no matter how high the amor is,when u attack it twice consecutively,it gets damaged for 1 point
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tt I thought that the interceptors went back to carriers due no ammo
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On August 16 2004 07:23 ZpuX wrote: tt I thought that the interceptors went back to carriers due no ammo
rofl
well at least i remember someone calling carriers "flying instant shield batteries"
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United States12184 Posts
On August 16 2004 01:36 ygor wrote: Why does everybody say that real damage unit A is doing to unit B is calculated in following way: real_damage(A,B) = basic_attack(A) +weapon_upg(A) - basic_armor(B) - armor_upg(B) ??? Let's take a 3/3 marine vs zerg egg. real_damage(marine(3/3), zerg_egg(0/0)) = 6+3-10-0 = -1, but marines are still killing eggs (although horribly slowly) Does anybody know what are the real damage calculation formulas? Are HP stored as integers or smaller fragments? Any Blizzard programmers here ? I think if anybody created an utility to calculate real damage of units vs units with different upgrades + regeneration factor, some strategies in BW would change again.
You must be new =) The minimum damage value is 0.5.
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On August 15 2004 20:40 tfeign wrote:
EDIT: Actually, it only returns to the carrier to heal when its health is low. I think it does it when its HP is less than 25 (automatically of course)
When I tested it, they automatically went back after 2 goon shots -> , so when they had no shields, they'd go back and heal them instantly, come out a second later
p.s. is interceptor's attack 6 or 3x2 (they shoot 2 blue things so I was just wondering..)
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
It's 6. If it was 3 dmg x2, then their attack upgrade bonus would have to be a multiple of 2 (as displayed by SC), but instead it is only 1.
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that's good then, goli armor less efficient ^^
btw are zealots small or medium units?, they look medium in shuttles and stuff, but they take 100% dmg from vults (right?), and as far as I remember,
concussive/plasma does 50% to medium, 25% to large, 100% to small
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If a zealot attacks a unit that has a ton of armor, will it deal 0.5 or 1 dmg? Since it hits with both blades...
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Zelots are small units. 0.5 damage? That doesn't exist.
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I guess zealots and other nx2 things will deal 1 dmg since the minimum dmg you can deal is 0.5, so 0.5x2 is 1 ..
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a puzzle- Work out the damage of a graded bat vs a ungraded ultra.
Grades are applied before damage type mods
Btw, something ive always wondered..
On staredit it states that the max hits of a bat is 3, but in the game it says 16, not 24 which is what this would be. Any idea if the bat ever does 24 dmg?
Edit: nevermind its just a mistake on staredit
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The game keeps track of damage that is in the decimals, but doesn't display it.
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On August 16 2004 15:05 ShabZzoY! wrote: a puzzle- Work out the damage of a graded bat vs a ungraded ultra.
Grades are applied before damage type mods
Btw, something ive always wondered..
On staredit it states that the max hits of a bat is 3, but in the game it says 16, not 24 which is what this would be. Any idea if the bat ever does 24 dmg?
Edit: nevermind its just a mistake on staredit
The firebat attack is "checked" three times against the target's defense rating. In other words, each point of armor subtracts 3 points of attack damage.
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Belgium9937 Posts
I'm gonna be on-topic for a change...
It's clear by now that Carrier attack upgrades are better than armor upgrades,but since Carriers often go in combination with zealots,isnt it better to give a bit more mins and gas to plasma shields?
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no shields are too gas heavy to bother with
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On August 16 2004 15:05 ShabZzoY! wrote:On staredit it states that the max hits of a bat is 3, but in the game it says 16, not 24 which is what this would be. Any idea if the bat ever does 24 dmg?
fbats do 24dmg very rarely, because to do that they have to hit an enemy unit with all 3 flames (they attack in three directions, that's why they work so well vs groups of zealots or lings) Ive seen few times a firebat doing 24 damage to zergling which was running near him.
didnt you know that interceptors are healed when they come back to carriers? omg if they didnt heal the protoss would have to build new all the time and hit and run tactics vs gollies wouldnt be too useful, beacuse protoss would have to buy new interceptors all the time
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if you hit a goon diagonally with a bat, it will do 24 dmg to its shield
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I'm gonna test that now.
As for the on-topic portion of the post, cliffs + 8 or more carriers + good micro is so cost effective for toss vs terran, the interceptors don't need to heal hp, sp is good enough.
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zealot is a medium unit i think
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On August 18 2004 23:40 ahk-gosu wrote: zealot is a medium unit i think It is small. Check readme.hlp in your sc directory.
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hmmm some stupid site posted it as medium your right its small
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i hadn't realized how big carrier armor is. sadly shields = suck as well as focus fire from 12 gols
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On August 17 2004 12:58 8882 wrote: Show nested quote +On August 16 2004 15:05 ShabZzoY! wrote:On staredit it states that the max hits of a bat is 3, but in the game it says 16, not 24 which is what this would be. Any idea if the bat ever does 24 dmg? fbats do 24dmg very rarely, because to do that they have to hit an enemy unit with all 3 flames (they attack in three directions, that's why they work so well vs groups of zealots or lings) Ive seen few times a firebat doing 24 damage to zergling which was running near him. didnt you know that interceptors are healed when they come back to carriers? omg if they didnt heal the protoss would have to build new all the time and hit and run tactics vs gollies wouldnt be too useful, beacuse protoss would have to buy new interceptors all the time I dont think firebats flame attacks 3 directions. I believe it does damage in one direction, but in 3 different sections of the flame (the part close to the fire bat, the middle of the flame, and the end of the flame). The reason units sort of off to the sides of bats take damage is each of the flame sections deals splash damage to a small area next to the flame. Each section is like a bubble IIRC.
A Real-Life friend of mine used to hack back around 1.06 (at BGH no less, haha), and I watched him play at his house once. The hack would make it so 3 white bubbles would go out with the firebat flame, and I believe those indicated which units took damage from it. Something like this also happened with lurkers. A zerg beacon would go out from the lurker with the spine, and I believe whatever the beacon touched took damage.
Anyway, the firebat thing looked something like this:
[}OOO
[} = Firebat (Direction firebat is facing indicated by }) O = each area damage is applied to.
Goons take 24 diagonally because they are big enough to be in all 3 sections of the flame.
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[/QUOTE]
rofl
well at least i remember someone calling carriers "flying instant shield batteries"[/QUOTE] ROFLMAO ^_^ anyway indeed i thought they go back for ammo ;D not to heal :D damn i love more and more carriers :D
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the only reason u should delay shields is if u think ur gonna take more expos or u think ur unit count is gonna be insufficient at an important time in the near future because of u getting the upgrade.. shields may be the worst of all upgrades but basically after those two tests every upgrade is fair game even shitty ones
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On August 15 2004 05:08 Peatza wrote: 6 damage, that's insane. To bad good Terran upg like crazy. yeah T_T
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Belgium9937 Posts
T.T carrier isnt a unit you can make for a longtime period..if he stops your first attack he probably is gonna stop em all,just go arbit from then on ;O
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