I've been playing a decent number of games against protoss recently(I play terran) and the other night I suddenly get this feeling of dread and boredom of following the usual mech style of play. I thought, would something like marine medic firebat be even somewhat viable as a build more later on in the game? I've seen a pro-game where T does a bunker rush to counter 12 nexus, firebathero where he gets a couple firebats and medics out but switches to mech later on, as well as reading a bit about the deep 6 build. One of the things I love doing in strategy games is getting really creative and doing things you wouldn't expect.

So my questions summed up: can the usual marine/medic/firebat(or known as 'bio' ) you often see against zerg work when facing protoss at a high level of play? has anyone seen progamers do this/know of any VODs? is it just marginally effective, but compared to mech takes much more effort for much less gain?

Thanks in advance TL!

Megalisk

United States6095 Posts

August 11 2010 02:08 GMT

There was the PL playoff games in which both Midas/Mind tried Bio against Best, and it failed miserably both times. Basically if the toss has good reaver micro, or gets storm faster than usual..you are boned.

HickleStine

Australia276 Posts

August 11 2010 02:15 GMT

The argument against it is that protoss has so many spells and splash damage units that a bio army would get slaughtered unless you have AMAZING micro.
Storms, reavers, and even stuff like maelstrom would constantly threaten your army if you didn't control your units just right.
DT's one hit kill marines, once you have stim and range dragoons and zealots become less effective, but seriously I think the reason it's not done is it is just too mechanically demanding and too fragile.
Deep six is an exception because if the protoss is not expecting it your timing push can be very hard to stop with conventional mid-game tactics (a shuttle, flanking etc). But even then, if they went for reaver tech or fast storms, you can die soooooooo easily.

avaTar[

Mexico301 Posts

August 11 2010 02:22 GMT

Watch GosI[terran] vs Infernal @ Andromeda from the Razer TSL , deep six executed perfectly

Also Go.go vs Bisu on Return of the King I think? or Bizantyum III

Watch the brilliant scouting denial in those games, otherwise is an almost certain loss.

Severedevil

United States4839 Posts

August 11 2010 02:49 GMT

Bio stacks poorly against Protoss because Protoss has splash damage which will buttfuck a bio ball. The only way you could possibly play a bio-focused TvP is if you can out-expand the Protoss, as far as I can tell. (Then you could contain him at the mouth of a choke.) Deep Six is really cheesy (underdeveloped mech + only two bases is hard to continue the game with, unless you break the nat), but I'd like to see a variant that takes a fast third with the push, to counteract your shitty tech with good econ --> only need to kill the third to continue playing.

It's still my belief that a small number of bio units would be a valuable addition to a mech Terran, either as raiders (mech sucks in small groups, but bio ROCKS, whether in dropships or not) or flankers or units to stand back and shoot the units off your main forces. I've never seen it actually happen.

hellokitty[hk]

United States1309 Posts

August 11 2010 02:53 GMT

The only TvP I know is deep six.
Haven't played much, especially not with good players, but haven't lost with it.
If it fails, you get a safe expansion and scare the toss a bit.

gmsts

England61 Posts

August 11 2010 02:54 GMT

I actually went through a phase where I deep sixed exclusively vs protoss trying to see if it was viable, have like 5 replays somewhere; mostly loses. It is FUN as hell very strong and very mobile, I usually am able to take out their natural and trade armies while the protoss goes what the fuck as all his zealots evaporate. The problem is it is one hit KO and if you miss will comeback and own your marines. You can't let the protoss breathe till he is dead. I have taken out his main base and still lost to storm. Only situations were I would advise it is if they spawn very close to your base, in two player maps I feel it is stronger as expansion are closer and your reinforcement will come sooner. A really good map for it in my opinion would be blue storm as your rallied marines will have a really fast route b/c of small choke at natural. General tips for executing it are:
a) start with a very standard build like siege expo
b) get turret all around your base so toss has no idea what you are building
c) Have a couple scans ready incase of dark templar
d) have at least 5 tanks with your push this will help deal with dragoon especially if he tries to turtle at his ramp.
e) If you killed his natural don't sit and camp outside push his main asap send small groups to his other expos to make sure he is not making another base else where.
f) Rally everything to front.
g) Bring scvs to make bunkers it is the only thing that will save your marines once storm is out unless you have like 400 apm and can emp all his templar before he storms.

blahman3344

United States2015 Posts

August 11 2010 02:57 GMT

bio in TvP is used against protosses doing greedy builds. for example:
marines + bunker rush vs greedy 12 nex
deep-6 against a protoss doing a greedy fast 3rd nexus

Other than that, it completely fails against fast storm upgrade and good reaver micro. Also, dt's can manage to kill off units here and there while you push, which can drastically reduce your unit count, especially if he sends them out 1 at a time and forces you to waste scans.

Taekwon

United States8155 Posts

August 11 2010 03:36 GMT

On August 11 2010 11:22 avaTar[ wrote:
Watch GosI[terran] vs (P)

iNfeRnaL @ Andromeda from the Razer TSL , (T)

Deep six executed perfectly

Also Go.go vs (P)

Bisu on Return of the King I think? or Bizantyum III

Watch the brilliant scouting denial in those games, otherwise is an almost certain loss.

Unless you're Best.

Papvin

Denmark610 Posts

August 11 2010 03:45 GMT

#10

Hey there. As many has pointed out, it's not viable at top level play, because storm dominates it too well. It's also not as effective as against zerg in smaller numbers, since protoss units are more sturdy, where small groups of mnm shines against zerg because few mnm against few zerglings is a rape.
With that said, it's completely viable at most levels below like B at iccup. I myself used to offrace terran a bit, and (at D+ level) it was possible just to go pure bio with vessels and tanks. It's micro intensive, because you need to emp well, but it's insanely fun.

writer22816

United States5775 Posts

August 11 2010 05:15 GMT

#11

No, it is not viable at high levels of play except as a timing rush. There is no way you can use it as your standard late-game army composition.

phyren

United States1067 Posts

August 11 2010 05:55 GMT

#12

Actually, it is somewhat viable. There is the well known deep 6 push with mostly medic marine to defend a few tanks, but it is also possible to play a longer game. Search through some of the older vods. I seem to remember something like upmagic vs nal ra or some such game which went very long with bio vs toss.

Marines actually can do well vs reavers if you have good micro and can split well. The slight delay that reavers have before firing is enough time for stimmed marines to kill it. Storm is a considerably stronger counter as it is almost impossible to move the infantry out of the way as a reaction.

Personally, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use tanks and vultures. I'd honestly incorporate them into any build with any other race if it was an option. They are both possibly the most cost effective units in the game.

jalstar

United States8198 Posts

August 11 2010 05:56 GMT

#13

what about wraith to snipe templar like mutas do in zvp?

On August 11 2010 14:55 phyren wrote:
Personally, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use tanks and vultures.

agreed.

Hautamaki

Canada1311 Posts

August 11 2010 06:20 GMT

#14

In big numbers even just plain old ranged goons beats m&m so it's really not that viable. You have to outplay toss in every way to win with bio.

swanized

Canada2480 Posts

August 11 2010 06:20 GMT

#15

On August 11 2010 14:56 jalstar wrote:
what about wraith to snipe templar like mutas do in zvp?

well don't think this is viable considering how long it takes to pump out enough wraith (also considering they are more expensive then mutas)

Z can just get 9 mutas 1 shot but T needs to get the wraiths 1 or 2 at a time, wraiths are quite fragile too.

I remember a game of upmagic vs Nal_ra where upmagic did a full bio build and eventually won

there was a Day9 daily about it if I remember

EDIT:to people saying Deep six is not viable at high level of play

yes it is, there are countless vods of pros doing Deep 6, it's just REALLY cheesy, they time an attack before reavers/storms and try to damage the protoss econ/tech a lot.

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

August 11 2010 06:38 GMT

#16

You can use them, but you have to hit before the reaver/storm is ready, or else the toss will massacre you.

infinity2k9

United Kingdom2397 Posts

August 11 2010 08:19 GMT

#17

On August 11 2010 14:55 phyren wrote:
Personally, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use tanks and vultures..

Because it's fun... imo you have to play a lot better than your opponent but it is nice to do. In normal Hunters 2v2/3v3 bio is used mostly and it does work well until Protoss can tech, also i've seen irradiate used to kill HT's. I'd say in 1v1 it's good at a certain timing so that you can get a contain going and take out natural... bring up scvs and drop down many bunkers and it'll be very difficult to break, with the added bonus of not worrying about mine dragging and zealot bombing. Then you are free to expand, switch to mech. Keep in mind a dropship full of mnm can take out probes or tech buildings more effectively than vultures too if you are into the midgame and are able to do it.

saltywet

Hong Kong1316 Posts

August 11 2010 08:21 GMT

#18

flash knocked bisu out of osl with 2 rax m&m rush + scvs a few years ago...

also, there was a game where hwasin beat bisu on outsider, i remember marines and medics in that game, it was close though and i dont think it was a deep 6

Deleted User 47542

1484 Posts

August 11 2010 09:15 GMT

#19

Dragoons hold the ramp too easily letting toss get a reaver out which is pretty much GG. Even if T does something sophisticated like a Deep 6 with tanks/marine/medic, it relys too much on denying the Toss scout, timing, and luck.

HickleStine

Australia276 Posts

August 11 2010 09:20 GMT

#20

Okay I just went and watched the Day[9] daily on Upmagic vs Nal_rA on Nemesis. To my mind m&m now seems completely viable as long as you have the APM and skill to micro against reavers etc.

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