On August 11 2010 23:20 SubtleArt wrote: No, bio absolutely will not ever work against protoss. Ever. Why? Cause of storm and reavers. They kill marines so fast its ridiculous.
The only time bio works is 2 rax all in cheese and deep 6 all in cheese, both of which are...all in
well... bio works pretty well in 3v3 bgh...
vessel emp can disable templars and tank will own reavers (marines stop shuttle harass pretty easily)
On August 11 2010 23:20 SubtleArt wrote: No, bio absolutely will not ever work against protoss. Ever. Why? Cause of storm and reavers. They kill marines so fast its ridiculous.
The only time bio works is 2 rax all in cheese and deep 6 all in cheese, both of which are...all in
well... bio works pretty well in 3v3 bgh...
vessel emp can disable templars and tank will own reavers (marines stop shuttle harass pretty easily)
Thanks, but we're talking about 1v1 on a real map, not 3v3 on a retarded map
On August 11 2010 23:20 SubtleArt wrote: No, bio absolutely will not ever work against protoss. Ever. Why? Cause of storm and reavers. They kill marines so fast its ridiculous.
The only time bio works is 2 rax all in cheese and deep 6 all in cheese, both of which are...all in
well... bio works pretty well in 3v3 bgh...
vessel emp can disable templars and tank will own reavers (marines stop shuttle harass pretty easily)
When the standard Protoss opening in 3v3 bgh is 2gate, obviously bio units will see more usage than in a standard game. It is also not as if it's just going to be you as a Terran vs a Protoss either. It's going to be a jumbled mix on both sides working together.
The protoss takes his 3rd off of 2gates, and this build works against it perfectly. ForGG probably didn't miss a single macro round this game. o_o
If you really wanna try some mnm in a standard game, use FD with aca. Get stim and a med then push. This requires high apm though. It's worked a few times for me vs D+/C- Korean tosses. It might be hard for you to keep up the depot/fact/cc construction though if you micro too hard.
Don't do it, they die like zerglings do in storm and die like hydras do against reavers. Bio against Protoss is a terribad idea unless its a timing attack
All-bio is very risky to do against toss due to the variety of splash damage, though you could do some small m&m drops to take out expos if your vulture micro is bad. Might not even need more than 1 rax, all you need is to research stim and perhaps range.
On August 11 2010 23:20 SubtleArt wrote: No, bio absolutely will not ever work against protoss. Ever. Why? Cause of storm and reavers. They kill marines so fast its ridiculous.
The only time bio works is 2 rax all in cheese and deep 6 all in cheese, both of which are...all in
well... bio works pretty well in 3v3 bgh...
vessel emp can disable templars and tank will own reavers (marines stop shuttle harass pretty easily)
MnM isn't so bad in that it gives you a VERY STRONG push before Protoss gets a sizable army and reavers/ht out. DTs aren't so bad if you're quick to scan, only because a DT is more expensive than a marine and the tradeoff benefits Terran.
Deep 6 packs the strongest surprise punch, but is an all-in. I've done some experimenting with a U-238 fast expand that pushes faster than a deep 6 (faster CC, no need for factory tech until later) with transition opportunities. I would say it is wise to follow up your push with siege tanks so that you can have a long-range contain, making it safer against storms. Obviously, build some turrets to keep out shuttles.
The other transition is to starport and dropship tech and try to harass all over the map while expanding yourself with a slowly growing tank defense. Don't worry about a contain in the front, just harass everywhere - if Protoss tries to counter they'll lose tons of probes & pylons & tech to the mnm. Your defense of tank, stimpack, and SCVs at home should be sufficient to deflect an all-in.
Unfortunately this takes harassment micro, infantry micro, and mnm macro (sooo many barracks). The advantage is that you can always be on the attack because mnm rebuild so quickly and it only takes a handful in a dropship (or two) to shut down a base.
Sorry I don't have any replays of the U-238 opening on hand (maybe Severedevil does), but it's pretty straightforward: imagine your gas was stolen and you fast CC, but get U-238 instead of a factory, and you typically want to double bunker and keep some mnm in the back of your base to shoot down a shuttle in case of reaver drop. Add barracks and push when you have enough infantry to break a goon contain. I'd recommend starting a factory as you're rolling out so that you can have a tank show up by the time your army arrives - if you opponent is expanding rapidly you want to get dropships and fight skirmishes at every nexus.
tldr: The rax CC FE gives you a great econ to start and you can push earlier than Deep Six if you rely on U-238 for defense instead of tanks. You can expand once you have enough tanks to support your infantry, or you can tech switch.
On August 12 2010 11:01 Thesecretaznman wrote: forGG vs Kal is really the best example imo.
The protoss takes his 3rd off of 2gates, and this build works against it perfectly. ForGG probably didn't miss a single macro round this game. o_o
If you really wanna try some mnm in a standard game, use FD with aca. Get stim and a med then push. This requires high apm though. It's worked a few times for me vs D+/C- Korean tosses. It might be hard for you to keep up the depot/fact/cc construction though if you micro too hard.
Yea that game from forGG was awesome, one of my favourites of all time. Go watch the vod now if you havent already ! Heres the link
There's different ways to do it. Hiya does a push that's more tank-heavy than Flash's. The main goal is to make sure your opponent doesn't know you're doing it.
Personally, I don't recommend trying it until you're confident in your bio macro/micro. I tried it when I was a D player (with horrible bio TvZ) and got completely owned. As my TvZ got better, I got good enough with bio macro/micro that I could pull it off against Protoss once in a while.
I'm a protoss player. But occasionally I'll tvp. I have gone bio quite a few games but its mostly early game.
Like normally I would block ramp. Scout, see that protoss is going standard goon build. Make it seem like I'm going factories. But then throw down another barrack or two. And rush with marine medic and maybe a firebat or two. It usually works that by the time you get stim and get to protoss's base they should only have a few goons and usually break them and win quite easily.
As for late game unless you had insane micro I can't see it putting you at an advantage. Just like others were saying above me the range of toss spells/dt/reaver would make it quit difficult to do much of anything.
Unless your going to go for more of a drop style play with bio I can't see it being effective in most high caliber gameplay.
But yeah, when I first started playing SC, I would PvT versus a computer. I noticed the comps always went medic marine, and eventually discovered that "hey, if I just built a hell of a lot of zealots, I can actually beat the comp." Unless it's a complete surprise, protoss is just...too strong against bio.
EPT
