| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Roe
Canada6002 Posts
So my questions summed up: can the usual marine/medic/firebat(or known as 'bio' ) you often see against zerg work when facing protoss at a high level of play? has anyone seen progamers do this/know of any VODs? is it just marginally effective, but compared to mech takes much more effort for much less gain? Thanks in advance TL!  | ||
|
Megalisk
United States6095 Posts
| ||
|
HickleStine
Australia276 Posts
Storms, reavers, and even stuff like maelstrom would constantly threaten your army if you didn't control your units just right. DT's one hit kill marines, once you have stim and range dragoons and zealots become less effective, but seriously I think the reason it's not done is it is just too mechanically demanding and too fragile. Deep six is an exception because if the protoss is not expecting it your timing push can be very hard to stop with conventional mid-game tactics (a shuttle, flanking etc). But even then, if they went for reaver tech or fast storms, you can die soooooooo easily. | ||
|
avaTar[
Mexico301 Posts
Also Go.go vs Bisu on Return of the King I think? or Bizantyum III Watch the brilliant scouting denial in those games, otherwise is an almost certain loss. | ||
|
Severedevil
United States4835 Posts
It's still my belief that a small number of bio units would be a valuable addition to a mech Terran, either as raiders (mech sucks in small groups, but bio ROCKS, whether in dropships or not) or flankers or units to stand back and shoot the units off your main forces. I've never seen it actually happen. | ||
|
hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
Haven't played much, especially not with good players, but haven't lost with it. If it fails, you get a safe expansion and scare the toss a bit. | ||
|
gmsts
England61 Posts
a) start with a very standard build like siege expo b) get turret all around your base so toss has no idea what you are building c) Have a couple scans ready incase of dark templar d) have at least 5 tanks with your push this will help deal with dragoon especially if he tries to turtle at his ramp. e) If you killed his natural don't sit and camp outside push his main asap send small groups to his other expos to make sure he is not making another base else where. f) Rally everything to front. g) Bring scvs to make bunkers it is the only thing that will save your marines once storm is out unless you have like 400 apm and can emp all his templar before he storms. | ||
|
blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
marines + bunker rush vs greedy 12 nex deep-6 against a protoss doing a greedy fast 3rd nexus Other than that, it completely fails against fast storm upgrade and good reaver micro. Also, dt's can manage to kill off units here and there while you push, which can drastically reduce your unit count, especially if he sends them out 1 at a time and forces you to waste scans. | ||
|
Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
On August 11 2010 11:22 avaTar[ wrote: Watch GosI[terran] vs  iNfeRnaL @ Andromeda from the Razer TSL ,  Deep six executed perfectlyAlso Go.go vs Bisu on Return of the King I think? or Bizantyum III Watch the brilliant scouting denial in those games, otherwise is an almost certain loss. Unless you're Best. | ||
|
Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
With that said, it's completely viable at most levels below like B at iccup. I myself used to offrace terran a bit, and (at D+ level) it was possible just to go pure bio with vessels and tanks. It's micro intensive, because you need to emp well, but it's insanely fun. | ||
|
writer22816
United States5775 Posts
| ||
|
phyren
United States1067 Posts
Marines actually can do well vs reavers if you have good micro and can split well. The slight delay that reavers have before firing is enough time for stimmed marines to kill it. Storm is a considerably stronger counter as it is almost impossible to move the infantry out of the way as a reaction. Personally, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use tanks and vultures. I'd honestly incorporate them into any build with any other race if it was an option. They are both possibly the most cost effective units in the game. | ||
|
jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On August 11 2010 14:55 phyren wrote: Personally, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use tanks and vultures. agreed. | ||
|
Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
| ||
swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On August 11 2010 14:56 jalstar wrote: what about wraith to snipe templar like mutas do in zvp? well don't think this is viable considering how long it takes to pump out enough wraith (also considering they are more expensive then mutas) Z can just get 9 mutas 1 shot but T needs to get the wraiths 1 or 2 at a time, wraiths are quite fragile too. I remember a game of upmagic vs Nal_ra where upmagic did a full bio build and eventually won there was a Day9 daily about it if I remember EDIT:to people saying Deep six is not viable at high level of play yes it is, there are countless vods of pros doing Deep 6, it's just REALLY cheesy, they time an attack before reavers/storms and try to damage the protoss econ/tech a lot. | ||
|
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
| ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On August 11 2010 14:55 phyren wrote: Personally, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use tanks and vultures.. Because it's fun... imo you have to play a lot better than your opponent but it is nice to do. In normal Hunters 2v2/3v3 bio is used mostly and it does work well until Protoss can tech, also i've seen irradiate used to kill HT's. I'd say in 1v1 it's good at a certain timing so that you can get a contain going and take out natural... bring up scvs and drop down many bunkers and it'll be very difficult to break, with the added bonus of not worrying about mine dragging and zealot bombing. Then you are free to expand, switch to mech. Keep in mind a dropship full of mnm can take out probes or tech buildings more effectively than vultures too if you are into the midgame and are able to do it. | ||
|
saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
also, there was a game where hwasin beat bisu on outsider, i remember marines and medics in that game, it was close though and i dont think it was a deep 6 | ||
|
Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
| ||
|
HickleStine
Australia276 Posts
| ||
|
Severedevil
United States4835 Posts
On August 11 2010 18:15 superbabosheki wrote: Dragoons hold the ramp too easily letting toss get a reaver out which is pretty much GG. Even if T does something sophisticated like a Deep 6 with tanks/marine/medic, it relys too much on denying the Toss scout, timing, and luck. Dunno why Reaver would be GG if, after you kill the natural, you just go home. You're running on two bases against Protoss's one... If the opponent already has Reavers when you show up, you're going to need some good splitting and scarab dodging to get anywhere. On August 11 2010 18:20 HickleStine wrote: Okay I just went and watched the Day[9] daily on Upmagic vs Nal_rA on Nemesis. To my mind m&m now seems completely viable as long as you have the APM and skill to micro against reavers etc. If you want a more economical bio opening, I would try rax FE --> bio with a bunker and range. | ||
|
gmsts
England61 Posts
On August 11 2010 20:09 Severedevil wrote: Dunno why Reaver would be GG if, after you kill the natural, you just go home. You're running on two bases against Protoss's one... If the opponent already has Reavers when you show up, you're going to need some good splitting and scarab dodging to get anywhere. If you want a more economical bio opening, I would try rax FE --> bio with a bunker and range. If the toss didn't fast expand then the push will probably not kill the natural, obviously this is assuming you are not playing someone who is a complete noob. If you get lucky and kill his natural when he was only on 2 bases it is likely that he was doing a 2 base tech, like 2 base arbiter or 2 base carrier so you should still push to prevent him from getting his tech up. MM are actually really good vs carriers and are also pretty good vs arbiter if you have a science vessel to detect cloaked units. | ||
|
SubtleArt
2710 Posts
The only time bio works is 2 rax all in cheese and deep 6 all in cheese, both of which are...all in | ||
|
lt.dunbar
United States29 Posts
If you can pull this off you probably would have won going mech anyways, but this is a game so have fun with it and do fun/balla strats. | ||
|
ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
| ||
|
Biff The Understudy
France7858 Posts
My advices if you decide to go for deep six timing attack: 1- It is a do or die strategic build. You go mm for hitting a precise timing, and your opponent must not know about it. Means it has to be very very carefully prepared and you must know exactly what you are doig and when. 2- It is verrrrry demanding technically. You need great mechanis, great scouting and great game sense. Don't even think about it if you are like D+ / C-, it's wortheless. This is one of the most fragile unusual stuff of the whole game, even more fragile and demanding than 2 port wraith TvZ which can work even when it gets scouted if you really master it. If you wanna get into fun stuff in TvP, I would recommand dropship play, or 2 fact rush, stuff like that. It's not as exciting, but mm timing push is really a high level strategy. Watch Gosi terran vs infernal @ andromeda from TSL2 to have an idea. Or watch Bisu vs gogo for another beautiful and clean execution. Then you make your mind. Hf, and don't get discouraged if it doesn't work the first time! | ||
|
TheMute
United States458 Posts
You actually want your opponent to go reaver. When you push out, whenever his army pressures or stalls you, siege up your tank(s) and spam the stop command. Once the reaver pops out, right click it with your tanks, and bio will take care of the rest of his army. | ||
|
Metalwing
Turkey1038 Posts
| ||
|
Shatter
United States1401 Posts
On August 12 2010 02:00 Metalwing wrote: Besides doing terrible damage vs. most protoss units and costing a lot of gas, it would take a lot of control to use lockdown in mass amounts. But even if you could, when the time in the game came to get ghosts, storm will be researched and will decimate any bio army. Bio armies can't deal with storms at all. OK, What about Ghosts ? They are bio as well, and they totally lockdown every protoss thing. Marine-Medic-Firebat combined with sufficient number of ghosts can do a mean business against protoss (in my opinion). | ||
|
CaffeineFree-_-
United States712 Posts
Also protoss can do something I saw Bisu do where they take 2 observers stack them and run over turrets and get inside your base. Basically if they spot your build whether it's time or not you really need to go. Don't forget to bring SCV's to spam bunkers+turrets because you're going to run out of scan. | ||
|
blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
On August 11 2010 14:55 phyren wrote: Actually, it is somewhat viable. There is the well known deep 6 push with mostly medic marine to defend a few tanks, but it is also possible to play a longer game. Search through some of the older vods. I seem to remember something like upmagic vs nal ra or some such game which went very long with bio vs toss. Marines actually can do well vs reavers if you have good micro and can split well. The slight delay that reavers have before firing is enough time for stimmed marines to kill it. Storm is a considerably stronger counter as it is almost impossible to move the infantry out of the way as a reaction. Personally, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use tanks and vultures. I'd honestly incorporate them into any build with any other race if it was an option. They are both possibly the most cost effective units in the game. The thing is that deep 6 is only used when a protoss takes his 3rd base faster than normal. Because of this, you use the deep 6 push to take advantage of the fact that his economy took a dip, and won't come back up until later (the push happens during the dip in toss's economy). The dip means that he cant produce from as many gateways, so you can out=produce him in units easily. The thing about deep 6 is that: 1) If the protoss knows that this is coming, he can get reaver tech, and with good micro, he can take out your marines ezpz. Even if you stim your marines and try to kill the reaver, the thing is that toss will have zealots/goons out firing upon your marines because the reaver will be behidn them most of the time. The decent protoss player would never put his reaver out in front of the rest of his army unless he is catching a group of marine/medic off guard. 2) If the toss doesn't take a fast 3rd and stays on 2 bases for a while, he will have more than enough gateways to out-produce your barracks/factories, so going deep 6 in this situation is not going to help in any way. | ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On August 11 2010 20:09 Severedevil wrote: If you want a more economical bio opening, I would try rax FE --> bio with a bunker and range. I think it's better to just play normal and get fact and siege up, then bio. Otherwise you are vulnerable to goon pressure alone. On August 11 2010 21:57 gmsts wrote: If the toss didn't fast expand then the push will probably not kill the natural, obviously this is assuming you are not playing someone who is a complete noob. If you get lucky and kill his natural when he was only on 2 bases it is likely that he was doing a 2 base tech, like 2 base arbiter or 2 base carrier so you should still push to prevent him from getting his tech up. MM are actually really good vs carriers and are also pretty good vs arbiter if you have a science vessel to detect cloaked units. If the toss doesn't expand then you shouldn't do this at all. Some of you are too quick in saying not viable. We are not talking about pro level and if something is viable, it's a guy who just wants to do it himself low level. Like i said people bio all the time in Hunters against P right into the midgame so it is possible. It's hard but saying it's completely not viable is wrong. | ||
|
JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
| ||
|
Severedevil
United States4835 Posts
On August 12 2010 03:52 infinity2k9 wrote: I think it's better to just play normal and get fact and siege up, then bio. Otherwise you are vulnerable to goon pressure alone. No, you're not. A standard Rax FE --> mech is vulnerable to dragoon pressure because it transitions straight to mech after a fast expansion. A Rax FE --> bio does not. A frontal assault with Reavers is a more relevant concern. | ||
|
shadesofkarma
Romania708 Posts
| ||
|
koreasilver
9109 Posts
On August 11 2010 18:20 HickleStine wrote: Okay I just went and watched the Day[9] daily on Upmagic vs Nal_rA on Nemesis. To my mind m&m now seems completely viable as long as you have the APM and skill to micro against reavers etc. You have to be aware that the reason Upmagic was able to win was because he managed to inflict grievous damage to him. This is why bio doesn't really work all that well - because it is completely contingent upon inflicting tons of damage before the Protoss is able to do anything. And even then the game may not completely be in your favour. When you do it, it is really a do-or-die situation. If you aren't able to inflict tons of damage then the game will increasingly slide against you as the game goes on. The main issue of bio in TvP is this, not fancy micro. It doesn't matter what kind of micro you have when the Protoss can just smash you to the ground if you fail to cripple him early on. | ||
|
WniO
United States2706 Posts
| ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On August 12 2010 05:08 Severedevil wrote: No, you're not. A standard Rax FE --> mech is vulnerable to dragoon pressure because it transitions straight to mech after a fast expansion. A Rax FE --> bio does not. A frontal assault with Reavers is a more relevant concern. But you give up the element of surprise. I was thinking more you'd want to make it look standard otherwise yeah they will definitely go for quick tech. | ||
|
Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
| ||
|
koreasilver
9109 Posts
On August 12 2010 06:34 OneFierceZealot wrote: ive done it on python/obs a few times and was getting rofled at in the game... until i got to about 3 control groups of mms. the reason why it works so well against toss is that until high tech units come out, the dps for toss is shit, and medics heal like a demon. ive only really lost when A. i got raped in the open by goon micro or B. the toss figured out he could build cannons. but id say when i did this i would win 50/50. If the protoss knew what he was doing then he would have already had a reaver out in his nat by the time you had three control groups because you are implying that he already saw the marines before you went out for the kill. Normally you would have been dead if you revealed the bio units long before you were moving out. And cannons die to stimmed marines with medics far easier than sunkens. This just does not make sense. | ||
|
saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
On August 11 2010 23:20 SubtleArt wrote: No, bio absolutely will not ever work against protoss. Ever. Why? Cause of storm and reavers. They kill marines so fast its ridiculous. The only time bio works is 2 rax all in cheese and deep 6 all in cheese, both of which are...all in well... bio works pretty well in 3v3 bgh... vessel emp can disable templars and tank will own reavers (marines stop shuttle harass pretty easily) | ||
|
SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:23 saltywet wrote: well... bio works pretty well in 3v3 bgh... vessel emp can disable templars and tank will own reavers (marines stop shuttle harass pretty easily) Thanks, but we're talking about 1v1 on a real map, not 3v3 on a retarded map | ||
|
koreasilver
9109 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:23 saltywet wrote: well... bio works pretty well in 3v3 bgh... vessel emp can disable templars and tank will own reavers (marines stop shuttle harass pretty easily) When the standard Protoss opening in 3v3 bgh is 2gate, obviously bio units will see more usage than in a standard game. It is also not as if it's just going to be you as a Terran vs a Protoss either. It's going to be a jumbled mix on both sides working together. But we're only talking about 1v1. | ||
|
doktorLucifer
United States855 Posts
The protoss takes his 3rd off of 2gates, and this build works against it perfectly. ForGG probably didn't miss a single macro round this game. o_o If you really wanna try some mnm in a standard game, use FD with aca. Get stim and a med then push. This requires high apm though. It's worked a few times for me vs D+/C- Korean tosses. It might be hard for you to keep up the depot/fact/cc construction though if you micro too hard. | ||
|
Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
| ||
|
micro7295
United States68 Posts
oh and the other guy suddenly gets a brain problem and for some reason cant micro his units well anymore | ||
|
Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
| ||
|
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On August 12 2010 10:23 saltywet wrote: well... bio works pretty well in 3v3 bgh... vessel emp can disable templars and tank will own reavers (marines stop shuttle harass pretty easily) Shuttle with templars>EMP | ||
|
Lightningbullet
United States507 Posts
| ||
|
SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
| ||
|
Akuemon
Canada151 Posts
| ||
|
mmp
United States2130 Posts
Deep 6 packs the strongest surprise punch, but is an all-in. I've done some experimenting with a U-238 fast expand that pushes faster than a deep 6 (faster CC, no need for factory tech until later) with transition opportunities. I would say it is wise to follow up your push with siege tanks so that you can have a long-range contain, making it safer against storms. Obviously, build some turrets to keep out shuttles. The other transition is to starport and dropship tech and try to harass all over the map while expanding yourself with a slowly growing tank defense. Don't worry about a contain in the front, just harass everywhere - if Protoss tries to counter they'll lose tons of probes & pylons & tech to the mnm. Your defense of tank, stimpack, and SCVs at home should be sufficient to deflect an all-in. Unfortunately this takes harassment micro, infantry micro, and mnm macro (sooo many barracks). The advantage is that you can always be on the attack because mnm rebuild so quickly and it only takes a handful in a dropship (or two) to shut down a base. Sorry I don't have any replays of the U-238 opening on hand (maybe Severedevil does), but it's pretty straightforward: imagine your gas was stolen and you fast CC, but get U-238 instead of a factory, and you typically want to double bunker and keep some mnm in the back of your base to shoot down a shuttle in case of reaver drop. Add barracks and push when you have enough infantry to break a goon contain. I'd recommend starting a factory as you're rolling out so that you can have a tank show up by the time your army arrives - if you opponent is expanding rapidly you want to get dropships and fight skirmishes at every nexus. tldr: The rax CC FE gives you a great econ to start and you can push earlier than Deep Six if you rely on U-238 for defense instead of tanks. You can expand once you have enough tanks to support your infantry, or you can tech switch. | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4122 Posts
On August 12 2010 11:01 Thesecretaznman wrote: forGG vs Kal is really the best example imo. The protoss takes his 3rd off of 2gates, and this build works against it perfectly. ForGG probably didn't miss a single macro round this game. o_o If you really wanna try some mnm in a standard game, use FD with aca. Get stim and a med then push. This requires high apm though. It's worked a few times for me vs D+/C- Korean tosses. It might be hard for you to keep up the depot/fact/cc construction though if you micro too hard. Yea that game from forGG was awesome, one of my favourites of all time. Go watch the vod now if you havent already ! Heres the link | ||
Kinky
United States4126 Posts
and There's different ways to do it. Hiya does a push that's more tank-heavy than Flash's. The main goal is to make sure your opponent doesn't know you're doing it. Personally, I don't recommend trying it until you're confident in your bio macro/micro. I tried it when I was a D player (with horrible bio TvZ) and got completely owned. As my TvZ got better, I got good enough with bio macro/micro that I could pull it off against Protoss once in a while. | ||
|
Ocular
Canada141 Posts
Like normally I would block ramp. Scout, see that protoss is going standard goon build. Make it seem like I'm going factories. But then throw down another barrack or two. And rush with marine medic and maybe a firebat or two. It usually works that by the time you get stim and get to protoss's base they should only have a few goons and usually break them and win quite easily. As for late game unless you had insane micro I can't see it putting you at an advantage. Just like others were saying above me the range of toss spells/dt/reaver would make it quit difficult to do much of anything. Unless your going to go for more of a drop style play with bio I can't see it being effective in most high caliber gameplay. | ||
|
hofodomo
United States257 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/7126_Bisu_vs_Flash/vod But yeah, when I first started playing SC, I would PvT versus a computer. I noticed the comps always went medic marine, and eventually discovered that "hey, if I just built a hell of a lot of zealots, I can actually beat the comp." Unless it's a complete surprise, protoss is just...too strong against bio. | ||
|
Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
| ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 SteadfastSC StarCraft: Brood War 615mouzHeroMarine  478TKL  435IndyStarCraft  331BRAT_OK  194Livibee 175ZombieGrub170 MindelVK  12Dota 2 Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Heroes of the Storm Other Games |
|
Replay Cast
The PondCast
Replay Cast
Replay Cast
Road to EWC
SC Evo League
Road to EWC
Afreeca Starleague
BeSt vs Soulkey
Road to EWC
Wardi Open
|
|
|
EPT
