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On August 11 2010 18:15 superbabosheki wrote:
Dragoons hold the ramp too easily letting toss get a reaver out which is pretty much GG. Even if T does something sophisticated like a Deep 6 with tanks/marine/medic, it relys too much on denying the Toss scout, timing, and luck.
Dunno why Reaver would be GG if, after you kill the natural, you just go home. You're running on two bases against Protoss's one...
If the opponent already has Reavers when you show up, you're going to need some good splitting and scarab dodging to get anywhere.
On August 11 2010 18:20 HickleStine wrote:
Okay I just went and watched the Day[9] daily on Upmagic vs Nal_rA on Nemesis. To my mind m&m now seems completely viable as long as you have the APM and skill to micro against reavers etc.
If you want a more economical bio opening, I would try rax FE --> bio with a bunker and range.
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On August 11 2010 20:09 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 18:15 superbabosheki wrote:
Dragoons hold the ramp too easily letting toss get a reaver out which is pretty much GG. Even if T does something sophisticated like a Deep 6 with tanks/marine/medic, it relys too much on denying the Toss scout, timing, and luck. Dunno why Reaver would be GG if, after you kill the natural, you just go home. You're running on two bases against Protoss's one... If the opponent already has Reavers when you show up, you're going to need some good splitting and scarab dodging to get anywhere. Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 18:20 HickleStine wrote:
Okay I just went and watched the Day[9] daily on Upmagic vs Nal_rA on Nemesis. To my mind m&m now seems completely viable as long as you have the APM and skill to micro against reavers etc. If you want a more economical bio opening, I would try rax FE --> bio with a bunker and range.
If the toss didn't fast expand then the push will probably not kill the natural, obviously this is assuming you are not playing someone who is a complete noob. If you get lucky and kill his natural when he was only on 2 bases it is likely that he was doing a 2 base tech, like 2 base arbiter or 2 base carrier so you should still push to prevent him from getting his tech up. MM are actually really good vs carriers and are also pretty good vs arbiter if you have a science vessel to detect cloaked units.
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No, bio absolutely will not ever work against protoss. Ever. Why? Cause of storm and reavers. They kill marines so fast its ridiculous.
The only time bio works is 2 rax all in cheese and deep 6 all in cheese, both of which are...all in
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If you somehow make it to late game with bio it would be pimp to add ghosts/SVs for lockdown/emp on temps or reavers, whichever the protoss goes to counter the bio.
If you can pull this off you probably would have won going mech anyways, but this is a game so have fun with it and do fun/balla strats.
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I mean the reason it doesn't work is because pretty much every tech unit beyond dragoons that isn't carriers or scouts just rapes it.
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The only viable mm build today in TvP is the deep six timing push. Forget about anything else, and forget about fighting straight head to head a toss with mm inn a conventional game. You'll get raped in the ass by templar and reavers, and you won't be able to keep the most demanding microing of all the strateies in the whole game (dodging storms and sniping shuttles with mm is not fun, believe me), and you won't be able to keep up with macroing from 764343 rax that you will need against the 15 gates your opponent will have in late game.
My advices if you decide to go for deep six timing attack:
1- It is a do or die strategic build. You go mm for hitting a precise timing, and your opponent must not know about it. Means it has to be very very carefully prepared and you must know exactly what you are doig and when.
2- It is verrrrry demanding technically. You need great mechanis, great scouting and great game sense. Don't even think about it if you are like D+ / C-, it's wortheless.
This is one of the most fragile unusual stuff of the whole game, even more fragile and demanding than 2 port wraith TvZ which can work even when it gets scouted if you really master it.
If you wanna get into fun stuff in TvP, I would recommand dropship play, or 2 fact rush, stuff like that. It's not as exciting, but mm timing push is really a high level strategy.
Watch Gosi terran vs infernal @ andromeda from TSL2 to have an idea. Or watch Bisu vs gogo for another beautiful and clean execution. Then you make your mind.
Hf, and don't get discouraged if it doesn't work the first time!
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Bio doesn't work vs toss because storm rapes it. As a Z, I'm already annoyed by my hydras always being stormed, but I least I can storm dodge and end up with hydras with half hp. Now rines/medics have roughly half the life of hydras so they die even faster to storms. However, bio rapes goons and zeals, so the deep six timing push attacks before storm. If your push doesn't work, you can keep trying until storm; once you see storm, gg out. In deep six, go all out. Focus on your timing, macro, and forget a proper mech transition because if you did deep six correctly, there is none.
You actually want your opponent to go reaver. When you push out, whenever his army pressures or stalls you, siege up your tank(s) and spam the stop command. Once the reaver pops out, right click it with your tanks, and bio will take care of the rest of his army.
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OK, What about Ghosts ? They are bio as well, and they totally lockdown every protoss thing. Marine-Medic-Firebat combined with sufficient number of ghosts can do a mean business against protoss (in my opinion).
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On August 12 2010 02:00 Metalwing wrote:
OK, What about Ghosts ? They are bio as well, and they totally lockdown every protoss thing. Marine-Medic-Firebat combined with sufficient number of ghosts can do a mean business against protoss (in my opinion). Besides doing terrible damage vs. most protoss units and costing a lot of gas, it would take a lot of control to use lockdown in mass amounts. But even if you could, when the time in the game came to get ghosts, storm will be researched and will decimate any bio army. Bio armies can't deal with storms at all.
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A lot of progamers went marine/medic/tank against protoss who 12 nexus and they scouted it late. There are all these theories of late game TvP bio but the fact is, it's not fun. Cannons can stop mnm drops pretty effectively and it's a really uphill battle because if you don't EMP all his templars you're gonna get rocked hardcore.
Also protoss can do something I saw Bisu do where they take 2 observers stack them and run over turrets and get inside your base. Basically if they spot your build whether it's time or not you really need to go. Don't forget to bring SCV's to spam bunkers+turrets because you're going to run out of scan.
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On August 11 2010 14:55 phyren wrote:
Actually, it is somewhat viable. There is the well known deep 6 push with mostly medic marine to defend a few tanks, but it is also possible to play a longer game. Search through some of the older vods. I seem to remember something like upmagic vs nal ra or some such game which went very long with bio vs toss.
Marines actually can do well vs reavers if you have good micro and can split well. The slight delay that reavers have before firing is enough time for stimmed marines to kill it. Storm is a considerably stronger counter as it is almost impossible to move the infantry out of the way as a reaction.
Personally, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use tanks and vultures. I'd honestly incorporate them into any build with any other race if it was an option. They are both possibly the most cost effective units in the game.
The thing is that deep 6 is only used when a protoss takes his 3rd base faster than normal. Because of this, you use the deep 6 push to take advantage of the fact that his economy took a dip, and won't come back up until later (the push happens during the dip in toss's economy). The dip means that he cant produce from as many gateways, so you can out=produce him in units easily.
The thing about deep 6 is that:
1) If the protoss knows that this is coming, he can get reaver tech, and with good micro, he can take out your marines ezpz. Even if you stim your marines and try to kill the reaver, the thing is that toss will have zealots/goons out firing upon your marines because the reaver will be behidn them most of the time. The decent protoss player would never put his reaver out in front of the rest of his army unless he is catching a group of marine/medic off guard.
2) If the toss doesn't take a fast 3rd and stays on 2 bases for a while, he will have more than enough gateways to out-produce your barracks/factories, so going deep 6 in this situation is not going to help in any way.
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On August 11 2010 20:09 Severedevil wrote:
If you want a more economical bio opening, I would try rax FE --> bio with a bunker and range.
I think it's better to just play normal and get fact and siege up, then bio. Otherwise you are vulnerable to goon pressure alone.
On August 11 2010 21:57 gmsts wrote:
If the toss didn't fast expand then the push will probably not kill the natural, obviously this is assuming you are not playing someone who is a complete noob. If you get lucky and kill his natural when he was only on 2 bases it is likely that he was doing a 2 base tech, like 2 base arbiter or 2 base carrier so you should still push to prevent him from getting his tech up. MM are actually really good vs carriers and are also pretty good vs arbiter if you have a science vessel to detect cloaked units.
If the toss doesn't expand then you shouldn't do this at all.
Some of you are too quick in saying not viable. We are not talking about pro level and if something is viable, it's a guy who just wants to do it himself low level. Like i said people bio all the time in Hunters against P right into the midgame so it is possible. It's hard but saying it's completely not viable is wrong.
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On August 12 2010 03:52 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 20:09 Severedevil wrote:
If you want a more economical bio opening, I would try rax FE --> bio with a bunker and range. I think it's better to just play normal and get fact and siege up, then bio. Otherwise you are vulnerable to goon pressure alone.
No, you're not.
A standard Rax FE --> mech is vulnerable to dragoon pressure because it transitions straight to mech after a fast expansion. A Rax FE --> bio does not.
A frontal assault with Reavers is a more relevant concern.
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Only time bio will work is if you totally outplay your opponent (including deep six, it is much harder for T pushing with tank mm than it is for P to stop it)
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On August 11 2010 18:20 HickleStine wrote:
Okay I just went and watched the Day[9] daily on Upmagic vs Nal_rA on Nemesis. To my mind m&m now seems completely viable as long as you have the APM and skill to micro against reavers etc.
You have to be aware that the reason Upmagic was able to win was because he managed to inflict grievous damage to him. This is why bio doesn't really work all that well - because it is completely contingent upon inflicting tons of damage before the Protoss is able to do anything. And even then the game may not completely be in your favour. When you do it, it is really a do-or-die situation. If you aren't able to inflict tons of damage then the game will increasingly slide against you as the game goes on. The main issue of bio in TvP is this, not fancy micro. It doesn't matter what kind of micro you have when the Protoss can just smash you to the ground if you fail to cripple him early on.
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ive done it on python/obs a few times and was getting rofled at in the game... until i got to about 3 control groups of mms. the reason why it works so well against toss is that until high tech units come out, the dps for toss is shit, and medics heal like a demon. ive only really lost when A. i got raped in the open by goon micro or B. the toss figured out he could build cannons. but id say when i did this i would win 50/50.
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On August 12 2010 05:08 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 03:52 infinity2k9 wrote:On August 11 2010 20:09 Severedevil wrote:
If you want a more economical bio opening, I would try rax FE --> bio with a bunker and range. I think it's better to just play normal and get fact and siege up, then bio. Otherwise you are vulnerable to goon pressure alone. No, you're not. A standard Rax FE --> mech is vulnerable to dragoon pressure because it transitions straight to mech after a fast expansion. A Rax FE --> bio does not. A frontal assault with Reavers is a more relevant concern.
But you give up the element of surprise. I was thinking more you'd want to make it look standard otherwise yeah they will definitely go for quick tech.
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On August 12 2010 06:34 OneFierceZealot wrote:
ive done it on python/obs a few times and was getting rofled at in the game... until i got to about 3 control groups of mms. the reason why it works so well against toss is that until high tech units come out, the dps for toss is shit, and medics heal like a demon. ive only really lost when A. i got raped in the open by goon micro or B. the toss figured out he could build cannons. but id say when i did this i would win 50/50.
If the protoss knew what he was doing then he would have already had a reaver out in his nat by the time you had three control groups because you are implying that he already saw the marines before you went out for the kill. Normally you would have been dead if you revealed the bio units long before you were moving out.
And cannons die to stimmed marines with medics far easier than sunkens. This just does not make sense.
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EPT
