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On February 10 2010 12:12 Xiphos wrote:
Okay now that I thought about this build, it can be actually be REALLY good versus Zergs. If you see Zergs doing the standard 3-Hatch Mutalisk into 5 Hatch Hydra, then this build would be fine if you get damage Zerg's base with the +1 Speedlot right before the Muta pops up but at that time you have already some Corsairs to defend against it and then continue popping Zealots to maybe end the game. BUT if the other guy goes Hydralisk (instead of Mutalisk), you know that he is not producing any Mutalisk soon, so that's STORM time! since you already have the Citadel and continue teching up for High Templar, WILL melt through the army.
This is true, but it requires you to still pump some corsairs for scouting purposes. If you devote into pumping zealots, I normally throw up 2+ more gateways after the initial rush does damage. I'm still stuck on what to transition to if the inital charge doesn't work, I guess that's another point I was looking for by posting this. Archives tech seems valid, because of easy access to storms. Or DT's if you can harass away their overlords.
Regardless, teching to archives will only work if you can hold them off well enough. It's also a valid counter to segway into if they lurker tech and you keep their OL count down. 2 - 3 HT's with storms should mop up low-supply amounts of lurkers if you can't get Obs in time.
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dont you usually get your archives so that you can immediately upgrade +2 weapons when +1 finishes? and then robo for obs and then add on gates. at least thats what nony does
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Well, yes this is true. I guess that's why I'm still D though too ^^;
Normally I rush in with more gateways if it ends the game, but you're absolutely right lazz.
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On February 10 2010 11:43 da_head wrote:that's what i was thinking :S
if they open lurkers first then yeah, but most will go mutas to counter the speedlot rush which is badly countered by them, but thent he mutas are countered by double SG.
if they go lurkers they wont have hydra ups so you will be able to rape their ovies aswell
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On February 10 2010 11:44 kineSiS- wrote:
What if you went 5 hatch hydra... ignoring the other BO which 3 Hatch Spire --> 5 Hatch Hydra. Because then your hatcheries would be put up so much faster, and my hydras out so much quicker, how would this build fair with a zerg that can simcity?
You would have to focus on protecting your overlords because 4+ sairs with attack upgrade will be roaming around the map.
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Ive been doing 2hatch muta alot because of this build. T^T Stupid speedlots
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You need to get +1 with your first 100 gas to play this build right, the citadel first is mirroring the old school +1 zealot build to have +1 and leg speed done at the same time. Meanwhile get 2 stargates to pump corsairs in anticipation to defend vs mutas.
This is a trick build that tries to catch an unprepared zerg off guard. New zergs who started with the 5 hatch hydra may be unfamiliar with the +1 opening. They are troubled initially to see the fast +1 but once they see the first stargate, they'll get a false assurance that you are doing a "regular sair/dt" opening after all... The +1 zealots will hit right at the first round of hydra production, zerg simply cannot defend with 2-3 slow hydras, 1 morphing sunken, and a few zerglings when you have the +1 upgrade. Keep streaming zealots off of 3 gates and take your expansion while the attack is going on. Even if zerg survives he will be very behind.
Against older zergs who would auto-counter the +1 opening with mutas, your +1 attack won't do damage, but the follow up can be tricky for the zerg. In an old school game, after defending the +1 attack, zerg expects to get map control for quite some time with mutas followed by lurkers. They will be shocked to find a whole fleet of corsairs waiting for them at your base, and your follow up attack with mass corsairs + zeal/dt will be very devastating against a zerg who has only mutas to defend and some lurker eggs that has just started morphing...
Basically the key element is surprise. I have died to this build several times, in both of the above situations... before I even took the build seriously and studied it... Basically the right counter is a muta opening into hydra/scourge. It takes some time to build up your corsair fleet even with 2 stargates, so there is still a small window after your +1 attack is over when the mutas will have map control. You will have 4-5 corsairs and more in production, so your base is safe, but you cannot move out to face a full group of full health mutas yet, meaning you can't attack or take an expansion. This is the window where zerg can safely get a few drones and add scourge to keep your corsairs in base while he switches to hydra/scourge. Keep in mind that in this build you are not getting storms anytime soon, so a zerg who successfully transitions into mass hydra without taking any damage early on will be in a better position at this point.
Personally I start +1 air armor as soon as I see both +1 and stargate in anticipation of this fairly tricky build. It's a very simple game plan for zerg once you know what to do...1. defend the +1 attack with mutas as usual, 2. keep the corsair fleet at bay with muta/scourge before the corsair number become overwhelming (8-9?). 3. switch to mass hydras in anticipation of losing air control. 4. use hydras to expand and keeping the mutas alive. 5. get lurkers. 6. re-take air control when +1 air armor finishes.
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On February 10 2010 11:37 Xiphos wrote:
Can't Lurkers rape this build?
3 hatch lurker into hydra/lurker would do very well, but who does that anymore...... 5 hatch lurker in a modern style would die just like 5 hatch hydra, lurkers won't come out in time.
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On February 11 2010 13:58 w3jjjj wrote:3 hatch lurker into hydra/lurker would do very well, but who does that anymore...... 5 hatch lurker in a modern style would die just like 5 hatch hydra, lurkers won't come out in time.
w3jjjj is right a lurker contain is useless against a FE protoss because protoss stays on 2 bases for a really long time and speedlots will just run past them. Besides corsairs will dominate 3hatch lurkers.
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On February 11 2010 14:09 wut_wut3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 13:58 w3jjjj wrote:On February 10 2010 11:37 Xiphos wrote:
Can't Lurkers rape this build? 3 hatch lurker into hydra/lurker would do very well, but who does that anymore...... 5 hatch lurker in a modern style would die just like 5 hatch hydra, lurkers won't come out in time. w3jjjj is right a lurker contain is useless against a FE protoss because protoss stays on 2 bases for a really long time and speedlots will just run past them. Besides corsairs will dominate 3hatch lurkers.
Since when is lurker contain bad vs FE toss and when does toss intentionally stay on 2 base for a while?
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8751 Posts
i love this build. i havent seen a pro player do it the way i do it. i see problems with all the pro versions. but maybe they are just taking risks. my version is supposed to handle anything! i originally started doing it as a way to completely avoid a situation of mutalisks sniping ht's.
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On February 11 2010 14:39 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 14:09 wut_wut3 wrote:On February 11 2010 13:58 w3jjjj wrote:On February 10 2010 11:37 Xiphos wrote:
Can't Lurkers rape this build? 3 hatch lurker into hydra/lurker would do very well, but who does that anymore...... 5 hatch lurker in a modern style would die just like 5 hatch hydra, lurkers won't come out in time. w3jjjj is right a lurker contain is useless against a FE protoss because protoss stays on 2 bases for a really long time and speedlots will just run past them. Besides corsairs will dominate 3hatch lurkers. Since when is lurker contain bad vs FE toss and when does toss intentionally stay on 2 base for a while?
theres a reason no one 3 hatch lurkers against protoss anymore because corsairs, dts, reaver drops, and early storm (although not in the 2starport build) rape lurker builds.
2 hatch lurker maybe but i still think zerg will have too few lurkers to contain speedlots. Even if you defend your natural the protoss can just target your main kill your den and pool, and when you bring your lurkers to defend your main, the zealots run to do damage to the natural. Lurkers are to slow and the only damage you might be able to do to a FE protoss is destroy the forge and 1st gateway.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
The 5 hatch hydra build with a slight variation owns this build badly. Instead of getting a spire after lair is done, get a 4th hatch before lair is done and a 5th hatch after that. Get a hydra den with speed upgrade first and overlord speed. Most of the time, you can 1a2a3a into protoss's natural and win cause it's 36 hydras vs 12 zealots and 7 cannons. This build's weakness is delayed storm. Even if he has storm ready in time, you'll have a good enough economy (5 fast hatcheries) to transition to a normal hydra + mutalisk army.
edit: The reason why you don't get a spire against this opening is because the spire's function in the 5 hatch hydra build is to make scourge to counter the initial corsairs, if there's no corsairs, you don't need scourge so quickly.
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What is the point in opening 3 hatch spire if you plan to counter +1 speedlot builds without mutalisks or lurkers? Wouldn't you be way better off just going 4 hatch before gas then?
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United States43907 Posts
On February 11 2010 15:29 Monkeyz_Rule wrote:
What is the point in opening 3 hatch spire if you plan to counter +1 speedlot builds without mutalisks or lurkers? Wouldn't you be way better off just going 4 hatch before gas then?
You need the scourge at that timing to stop sairs building up a critical mass and doing too much damage. Without overlord speed corsairs in small groups can really bring the pain if the guy has the game sense to find the openings.
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On February 10 2010 11:25 Manlot wrote:
I think I saw nony doing it with subtle differences. For example, sometimes he would make citadel first then gate then 2 SG. Sometimes He would make 2 SG fisrt. I think it's a pretty cool build if you know how to make those subtle changes.
Altought maybe I didn't paid enought atention.
thats 2 compleetly different bos.
The citadel first is a modern adaptation of the old speedzeal rush witch uses corsairs instand of arkons to defend vs possible mutas, the goal of the ordinary speedzeal was to take a fast 3rd during the zerg are fighting your zealots, nowdays muta micro is strongest and it slows your 3rda bit  good vs old sauron zergs
the double starport first (or 1port +1air) is designes to trade your zealots for overlords and then do major damage with dts, it is good vs modern 3hat spire into 5hat muta bo and its solid vs neo sauron. It have a bit of priblems vs the bo savior used when he was bonjiwa, the lurker first bo with spores and then mutas, but its a bo being raped by standard sair dt, so if you see fast den and later spire stop zealot production skipp speed and go harass with sair dt
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On February 10 2010 11:48 KwarK wrote:
It's a situational build. Yes, in many situations it is raped. However those are the situations in which it should not be used. The key to this build is knowing when to use it and when not to. It is not a standard build for general use.
So you're saying... it's.... The Stove 2.0?
Also regarding the pro game at the start with Jangbi... god damn I love that match, the game just EXPLODES at 7~minutes.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On February 11 2010 13:37 w3jjjj wrote:
You need to get +1 with your first 100 gas to play this build right, the citadel first is mirroring the old school +1 zealot build to have +1 and leg speed done at the same time. Meanwhile get 2 stargates to pump corsairs in anticipation to defend vs mutas.
This is a trick build that tries to catch an unprepared zerg off guard. New zergs who started with the 5 hatch hydra may be unfamiliar with the +1 opening. They are troubled initially to see the fast +1 but once they see the first stargate, they'll get a false assurance that you are doing a "regular sair/dt" opening after all... The +1 zealots will hit right at the first round of hydra production, zerg simply cannot defend with 2-3 slow hydras, 1 morphing sunken, and a few zerglings when you have the +1 upgrade. Keep streaming zealots off of 3 gates and take your expansion while the attack is going on. Even if zerg survives he will be very behind.
Against older zergs who would auto-counter the +1 opening with mutas, your +1 attack won't do damage, but the follow up can be tricky for the zerg. In an old school game, after defending the +1 attack, zerg expects to get map control for quite some time with mutas followed by lurkers. They will be shocked to find a whole fleet of corsairs waiting for them at your base, and your follow up attack with mass corsairs + zeal/dt will be very devastating against a zerg who has only mutas to defend and some lurker eggs that has just started morphing...
Basically the key element is surprise. I have died to this build several times, in both of the above situations... before I even took the build seriously and studied it... Basically the right counter is a muta opening into hydra/scourge. It takes some time to build up your corsair fleet even with 2 stargates, so there is still a small window after your +1 attack is over when the mutas will have map control. You will have 4-5 corsairs and more in production, so your base is safe, but you cannot move out to face a full group of full health mutas yet, meaning you can't attack or take an expansion. This is the window where zerg can safely get a few drones and add scourge to keep your corsairs in base while he switches to hydra/scourge. Keep in mind that in this build you are not getting storms anytime soon, so a zerg who successfully transitions into mass hydra without taking any damage early on will be in a better position at this point.
Personally I start +1 air armor as soon as I see both +1 and stargate in anticipation of this fairly tricky build. It's a very simple game plan for zerg once you know what to do...1. defend the +1 attack with mutas as usual, 2. keep the corsair fleet at bay with muta/scourge before the corsair number become overwhelming (8-9?). 3. switch to mass hydras in anticipation of losing air control. 4. use hydras to expand and keeping the mutas alive. 5. get lurkers. 6. re-take air control when +1 air armor finishes.
I will refer you back to this post because it basically gives you everything you need to know about this build.
Also go here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/1_SpeedZeal_(vs_Zerg)
For more information. This build was the go to build back a few years ago when Zergs still went 5 hatch Hydra and +1 Carapace (no Lair). It's primary goal was to push the Zerg back in his base and keep him defensive while Protoss secured a third. Nowadays with the early Lair tech, that early rendition has lost it's effectiveness because of the threat of Mutalisks, which essentially take map control and prevent any Protoss thirds from coming up. The dual Stargate addition is a modification of that early +1 Speedlot Rush build, designed to counter the fast Mutas from Zerg. This build is perfectly viable and can catch a lot of Zergs off guard, especially since it's become less popular. I'd say go for it, but this build does hurt you economicly and will delay your third by quite a bit since you need to get the Corsairs up. I'd try to avoid relying on this build because although it can work against the 3 Hatch Spire 5 Hatch Hydra build, it's not necessarily the most standard, nor will it actually improve your play per say. Mixing it in once in a while is fine though.
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On February 11 2010 14:40 Liquid`NonY wrote:
i love this build. i havent seen a pro player do it the way i do it. i see problems with all the pro versions. but maybe they are just taking risks. my version is supposed to handle anything! i originally started doing it as a way to completely avoid a situation of mutalisks sniping ht's.
Nony if it isnt to much trouble for you, could you post a replay of your version of the build? So C- noobies such as my self can study it and learn it. But i could understand if you dont just wanna start handing off your work to other people. anyways thanks.
Drums
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On February 11 2010 14:40 Liquid`NonY wrote:
i love this build. i havent seen a pro player do it the way i do it. i see problems with all the pro versions. but maybe they are just taking risks. my version is supposed to handle anything! i originally started doing it as a way to completely avoid a situation of mutalisks sniping ht's.
a replay of that BO could be good to us nony if u dont mind
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EPT
