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Protoss player, B- high. Basically this season I've been dying very hard in PvT at the C / C+ level to 3-4 fact vulture all-ins.
Every PvT I play nowdays I open 12 nexus, I've been getting quite good with my probe vs scv/rine micro and dragoon micro vs 2 fact builds so I've been winning lots of games with it so it's the build of choice for me in PvT.
Problem lies within when T opens 3-4 fact vulture all-ins. Basically, T would cut SCVs very early, and hop on 3-4 factories when I'm usually only on 2 gates with 2 more and robo warpping. In most of the games, given close to perfect macro by my opponent and I, 10-12 speed vultures arrive at my natural when I only have about 6-8 goons with 2 just finishing. Even when I wall, the vultures lay tons of mines in front my dragoons and I'm forced to pull back in which streaming vultures from 4 factories just mine up everything and kills tons of probes and dragoons. Even when I do finally manage to get obs out, speed vultures would have killed so many probes that I'd just lose to a push 5 minutes later.
I guess scouting is the key here, but mines finish right about when my first 2 goons arrive at his natural. My probe died much earlier to marines, and the T player can always just make 1 tank as normal and push my goons back denying me scouting completely.
On tops of this, I can't always keep all my dragoons at my natural as I have to keep 2-3 in my main to deflect 1fact/1port play. To make matters even worse, ever since I've been getting paranoid about vulture all-ins and keeping my goons at my natural, I've also been dying to strong 2 fact pushes because my goons are not in position outside of T's natural picking off marines/vultures and delaying the push like I normally do.
I guess there's a reason progamers don't open 12 nexus every game, and I'm so frustrated I might just go back and re-learn the standard gate expo builds again.
Any tips from a competent protoss player would be greatly appreciated.
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Well first off, I wouldn't always open 12nex. If it's the build of choice, fine, but if you nexus first on some maps you can get owned easily by a competent Terran.
I haven't been in your situation before, and you haven't provided a replay, but have you tried putting your pylons at your nats choke so that like 5 goons can hold off infinite vultures? If he persists just pull the rest of the dragoons forward as well. I can't imagine too many casualties to mines if your units are positioned well and if you have steady macro.
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thats like teoricrafting with pre determinated bos
at this point the only think you can do is make 1-2 zelots and use them to drag mines and kill like 4 vultures with a mine sacrificing a zealot.
if you are sure your opponent is going 2+ fact u can make 1 cannon too, the problem is that is sucks hard vs port and fd openings
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the mentality of the 12 nex, much like the Forge FE is to be able to take all sorts of early pressure and all ins and push out with a massive army after you've absorbed all of this
i.e. its a defensive build that will give you an incredible economic advantage
as with most defensive builds, building and unit plcement is key
i'm actually confused at the prospect of how 6-8 goons with even 2 gate goon pump cannot deflect this
you probably are leaving your goons to exposed fire while not abusing their range advantage vs vultures
in which case youneed a compete wall separating the vutlures from the goons, afterall a 12 nex shouldnt be doing early pressure so you can sit and "camp" on 2 base and 8 gate
just get a shuttle asap and 3 zealots in it will deflect any push he has
resume probe production after that wall is complete?
it would be a lot easier ify ou could post some reps
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On January 05 2010 06:39 ajmbek wrote:
thats like teoricrafting with pre determinated bos
at this point the only think you can do is make 1-2 zelots and use them to drag mines and kill like 4 vultures with a mine sacrificing a zealot.
if you are sure your opponent is going 2+ fact u can make 1 cannon too, the problem is that is sucks hard vs port and fd openings
You know that mine dragging vs anyone microing their vulturess is useless? Even D+ players do that
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are you using your pylons to create a wall at your natural? It doesn't cost anything, and it can't hurt to narrow your choke down, so that you can move the majority of your goons out more freely to delay 2 facts, and still have some defense against mass vulture.
Other than that, I'm sure you can get an idea of what the terran is doing based on what you dont see (no expand at a certain time, no push at a certain time, etc. Like what day9 talks about) and change how you position your units accordingly.
And I'm pretty sure you shouldnt make cannons. lol.
I'm not that good of a player, only around C/C-, and I haven't really played against this, but I think what I said makes some sense o:
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12 nexus ALWAYS is pretty ballsy. Good when the situation calls for it (1 fac expand) but very bad vs the aggressive builds ( 2 fac, 1 fac star) But if you're C/C+ you must know all of this already.
As you said SCOUTING is the key. If you see that 3rd 4th factory going down IMMEDIATLY lay down more gateways. If you cant get a scout in you can always tell how many factories the T is on by the army size. If you see a couple of vults and 3-4 tanks its safe to assume he's on 2 fac. If you see a control group of vults with 4-5 tanks buckle up buddy.
A thing i always do is hide 5-6 goons. This way when his army strikes my natural i can flank him. If you have proper C/C+ micro you can easily defend this. Just makes sure you dont get contained because T contain is BRUTAL
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Alright heres your big problem.
His build is used to counter your build. If your 12 nexus gets scouted, plan on one base play from the terran. Dropship and vulture heavy builds are the best to abuse your low dragoon count and late observers. Contain sort of builds generally fail once your macro kicks in.
6 goons with 2 more arriving should be plenty if you can set up a wall well. I dont really get your post at all. Your bent on using 12 nexus and your asking what you can do against vulture all ins (basically the counter). Its going to come down to your 6 goons against his 10 vultures or whatever you said happens every game.
My advice would be to stop 12 nexusing unless your on maps which are easy to defend your nat. Other than that theres not much advice we can give you.
I would say
- Improve your wall
- Get better goon vs vulture micro
- Hide a few goons and use them to interecept vulture reinforcements.
- Change your build
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United States2186 Posts
This thread is a great example of the dangers of asking for help in the strat forum. 1 base Terran vulture allins counter to 12 nexus uh what? 12 Nexus is an incredibly safe and advantageous build on most maps unless you play the same person 5x and they proxy bbs you the last game.
Basically this is something you shouldn't be losing to you if make a pylon wall at the nat. It should be done anyway in case they do a normal 2 fact and if they do some kind of mass vulture allin all you have to do is just make a few more and wall it off.
Replays would really help because this really doesn't make sense if you even wall off half the choke with pylons and still end up losing unless you are playing someone way better than you. Vultures can't do a thing if they can't run around your goons.
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u deserve to lose if u 12nexus
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Have a probe sit outside his nat. Far enough back that he doesn't just pop out and snipe it. If it dies for some reason, send another. When the GIANT STREAM OF VULTS goes by your probe/kills it. Wall off your nat and pull your goons from the main. If he doesn't do damage, he is incredibly far behind.
Play it safe after that, take third, keep goons at home, etc.
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3-4 fact vult all-in SHOULD beat 12 nex..
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12 nexus is fine guys. lots of terrans in Cs love to siege expand like their mothers.
Vulture all ins are stupid. just wall and make a few cannons/goons
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On January 05 2010 11:21 YPang wrote:
u deserve to lose if u 12nexus
1+
i'm tired of seeing FEs on fighting spirit. goddamn it!!!
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
You're asking for specific help on your games. We need a rep to see what's going on.
Also, I'm not sure why you need to keep 2-3 goons in your main to deflect 1 fac 1 port play by Terran. If you see Vultures streaming out of his base, you can pull those goons to your natural.
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What are these builds I am hearing about that make 12 nexus risky?
The last time 12 nexus was discussed, it was established that it rapes 2fac, puts you at an economic advantage vs siege expo, and is fine vs bunker rush if you save probes.
To the op, I don't understand how 8 goons plus a wall is even touched by 10 vultures
edit: ok so it's more like 4-5 goons. You need to pull goons from your main when you see the attack starting and run probes to main if you didn't wall. 5 goons really should be enough though
. Replay would really help situation
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post rep maybe your build is off
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On January 05 2010 11:04 Ver wrote:
This thread is a great example of the dangers of asking for help in the strat forum. 1 base Terran vulture allins counter to 12 nexus uh what? 12 Nexus is an incredibly safe and advantageous build on most maps unless you play the same person 5x and they proxy bbs you the last game.
err early vulture harrass is the key to trying to get an advantage over 12 nexus. A push to kill him often fails considering his macro will kick in and he can break any contain, so generally trying to do lots of harrass and get probe kills while getting your expansion up and then simply milking the lead with a 6 fac push works pretty well IF you can kill probes. Otherwise he comes away with an advantage.
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hey dude to stop that all u need to do is make a semi-wallin with pylons on ur natural
and if this still doesnt work out for u its just cuse ur micro is bad
to be fully honest u just need to walk up ur main base with everything including probes and give up ur natural base and u will be so much ahead
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On January 05 2010 21:43 MorroW[MB] wrote:
hey dude to stop that all u need to do is make a semi-wallin with pylons on ur natural
and if this still doesnt work out for u its just cuse ur micro is bad
to be fully honest u just need to walk up ur main base with everything including probes and give up ur natural base and u will be so much ahead
normally terrans uses dropship just to get passed pylon wall
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On January 05 2010 23:29 NiGoL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2010 21:43 MorroW[MB] wrote:
hey dude to stop that all u need to do is make a semi-wallin with pylons on ur natural
and if this still doesnt work out for u its just cuse ur micro is bad
to be fully honest u just need to walk up ur main base with everything including probes and give up ur natural base and u will be so much ahead normally terrans uses dropship just to get passed pylon wall
i thought we were talking about 3/4 fact, it doesnt hurt to make some pylons on ur natural so where u wanna go with this nigol? xd
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oh i missed the hole point lol.. Well i havent slept good last few days might be that ;d
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I'm not a "competent protoss player" but I can throw in my 2cents I guess :D
Perhaps make a wall out of buildings like most toss users do to prevent vultures from going up a ramp and attacking a base in the making. Though I realize on most maps it would prob take 3-4 buildings to make a good vulture wall you need to take some things into consideration here.
1. You went 12 nexus and if you deffend his early attacks you pretty much have a huge lead.
2. He is going 3-4fac all in which means if it fails he basiclly losses. Plus he's cutting scv's.
By making this wall your ruining the Terran's game plan. Mines.
So a pylon costs 100 minerals and a goon costs 125 minerals and 50 gas. So given you have around 6-10 goons while he has 10-12 vultures, I'd say just cut 2-4 goons and make some pylons dude, if you got range and a obs otw you pretty much got the game, he's going to be slow in getting the tank if you don't provoke him early on, so by the time he gets it you got your obs and your pushing with 12+ goons.
I guess what you could also do is scout with a probe after pylon and just get really good at not making him die, maybe a gas steal? Try and keep him alive as possible to see what the Terran is doing I suppose which is easier said then done I know, but check for the scv amount if he's cutting them, unless he cuts them later, then your in the dark I suppose.
Hope this helps somehow and GL.
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Intuitively, if your opponent goes all in, you can cut probe production and even retract your probes to your main, then build way more units than he can ever get and win the game.
Although it's not clear to me why your opponent can penetrate your natural at all vs. ranged goons with a pylon barricade.
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On January 06 2010 06:14 Severedevil wrote:
Intuitively, if your opponent goes all in, you can cut probe production and even retract your probes to your main, then build way more units than he can ever get and win the game.
Although it's not clear to me why your opponent can penetrate your natural at all vs. ranged goons with a pylon barricade.
Because he wasn't building a pylon barricade.
You should also put a goon or 2 on your ramp just in case they get past the wall.
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just make a rever to handle mass vults 
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when i play against mass vulture builds i just wall off my nat.
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EPT
